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Post by lowtacks86 on Feb 6, 2018 14:18:49 GMT
Nature makes a pretty simple determination. If you boink, it is with the expectation of getting pregnant. What the intentions of the people boinking are completely irrelevant to the biological urge. Humans are probably the only creatures that get surprised when boinking leads to pregnancy (Derp- How did that happen?!?!?!). That is the default state of things which is at a minimum why you can find a connect in Scripture although something so obvious shouldn't need a book. To think that abortion is some kind of champion for the human race (Derp- Population control...) and women in particular It makes them powerful!) is a ludicrous concept that people have latched onto because selfish desire or calming irrational fears are more important than parental bonds for many. "Humans are probably the only creatures that get surprised when boinking leads to pregnancy" How do you figure that? Do you really think animals understand the process of how reproduction work when most children below 10 don't even seem to grasp it? "To think that abortion is some kind of champion for the human race" Strawman "(Derp- Population control...)" Uh is that not true? Does abortion not help keep the population under control? If abortion is legal and socially acceptable seems like it would prevent unwanted births. Even if you hate abortion with a passion I don't see how you can argue against well...reality. "women in particular It makes them powerful!)" Another strawman "selfish desire or calming irrational fears are more important than parental bonds for many." You really think a woman getting an abortion because she has no financial means to raise a child is "selfish"? Or how about a baby conceived by rape? Is that "selfish" too?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 6, 2018 14:55:43 GMT
Don't let the actions of a few bad apples remove you from the true Faith A few? www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/USCCB_Yearly_Data_on_Accused_Priests.htm www.cbsnews.com/news/vatican-reveals-how-many-priests-defrocked-for-sex-abuse-since-2004/ www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690575/Pope-Francis-admits-two-cent-Roman-Catholic-priests-paedophiles-interview-Italian-newspaper.html But then, as a devout Catholic you would have to say that, wouldn't you? A fine answer ... but one which does not alter my observations. Modern birth control methods were unknown in Bible times, and the Bible is, therefore, silent on the matter as a specific. They sure do. It would be a unusual baby who has knowledge of God in the womb. And yet, supposedly, we are all born sinners. And so what is the penalty for sin, again? That does not change the observation just made, to which you agreed, but thank you anyway. Just because there are other views available does not make my observation invalid. Also, as I have had to explain to Winter recently, in some detail, the science of modern genetics proves the truth about human origins is different. Do the devils have pitchforks? Should I pay the ferryman? Can I throw Cerberus a bone or three? So many questions... Prove the 'other side' as in a Christian heaven exists first, away from the claims of scripture and personal creduility. So what is the evidence?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 6, 2018 14:59:37 GMT
lowtacks86I'm saying the animal population deals with it although, yes, I do think most animals certainly know where babies come from in an instinctual way which is also largely the reason people have sex. It's just that with choices and intelligence in face of a lack of desire to have a kid should come better control. If a kid is 10 and doesn't know where babies come from, they have sucky parents and were probably almost aborted. why do people keep saying I'm making a strawman on my own topic. If you want me to write a book report on your topic then bring it up and I'll see if I'm interested. Otherwise, I said exactly what I meant to say based on the points I wanted to bring up which means it was clearly on topic and to the point.You're creating a strawman just making up the notion its a strawman. the best way to handle something you incorrectly feel is unrelated to something i am speaking about is to ignore it. It saves on typing. Or an irrational fear. yes, in most circumstances it is clearly one of those and advocates of abortion are a part of the problem because they make up the fairy tale that if you get pregnant there is NO OTHER OPTION between abortion and raising the kid in destitution. Of course, good parents raise kids in poverty all the time, but that is irrelevant because that doesn't have to be the fate of an unwanted kid. Nope. Rape is not a choice. It makes sense why a child would be hated or unwanted enough to kill it when it's the product of rape (Although maybe not incest- Depends on if we are talking a Lannister situation or Chinatown). That said there is certainly nothing wrong with keeping it either. Fortunately rape abortions are too small of a stat to impact the overall role abortion plays in our society - To get rid of something that was the result of a conscious, willing, and likely stupid mistake.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Feb 6, 2018 15:16:38 GMT
lowtacks86 I'm saying the animal population deals with it although, yes, I do think most animals certainly know where babies come from in an instinctual way which is also largely the reason people have sex. It's just that with choices and intelligence in face of a lack of desire to have a kid should come better control. If a kid is 10 and doesn't know where babies come from, they have sucky parents and were probably almost aborted. why do people keep saying I'm making a strawman on my own topic. If you want me to write a book report on your topic then bring it up and I'll see if I'm interested. Otherwise, I said exactly what I meant to say based on the points I wanted to bring up which means it was clearly on topic and to the point.You're creating a strawman just making up the notion its a strawman. the best way to handle something you incorrectly feel is unrelated to something i am speaking about is to ignore it. It saves on typing. Or an irrational fear. yes, in most circumstances it is clearly one of those and advocates of abortion are a part of the problem because they make up the fairy tale that if you get pregnant there is NO OTHER OPTION between abortion and raising the kid in destitution. Of course, good parents raise kids in poverty all the time, but that is irrelevant because that doesn't have to be the fate of an unwanted kid. Nope. Rape is not a choice. It makes sense why a child would be hated or unwanted enough to kill it when it's the product of rape (Although maybe not incest- Depends on if we are talking a Lannister situation or Chinatown). That said there is certainly nothing wrong with keeping it either. Fortunately rape abortions are too small of a stat to impact the overall role abortion plays in our society - To get rid of something that was the result of a conscious, willing, and likely stupid mistake. "I'm saying the animal population deals with it although" Deal with it how? Many mammals will only raise their offspring up to a point, and then abandon them (which is what pro-lifers argue with orphanges/adoptions). One species of turtle will abandon it's hatchlings and they must crawl to the ocean and risk getting eaten by sea gulls. Cuckoos will actually leave their eggs in other bird species nests to be raised by them. Hell some will even eat their young. The animal kingdom is much too board and large for you make that statement. "If a kid is 10 and doesn't know where babies come from, they have sucky parents" That's not what I said. And you wonder why people accuse you of strawmanning. "why do people keep saying I'm making a strawman on my own topic." It doesn't matter if it's in your own topic. I don't think you know what "strawman" means. "If you want me to write a book report on your topic then bring it up and I'll see if I'm interested." Another strawman. "You're creating a strawman just making up the notion its a strawman." So you don't know what a strawman is. Thanks for confirming that. "the best way to handle something you incorrectly feel is unrelated to something i am speaking about is to ignore it" You want to me to ignore your logical fallacies? Well that explains a lot. "NO OTHER OPTION" So abandon it. Gotcha. And you accuse pro choicers of being selfish. "Of course, good parents raise kids in poverty all the time" That's not what I said, another straw...of for fucks sake, forget it.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Feb 6, 2018 15:22:19 GMT
lowtacks86 I'm saying the animal population deals with it although, yes, I do think most animals certainly know where babies come from in an instinctual way which is also largely the reason people have sex. It's just that with choices and intelligence in face of a lack of desire to have a kid should come better control. If a kid is 10 and doesn't know where babies come from, they have sucky parents and were probably almost aborted. why do people keep saying I'm making a strawman on my own topic. What in the blue hell does that have to do with whether or not your statement was a strawman? By the way, it was a strawman.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 6, 2018 15:31:52 GMT
No, it can't have any intellectual grounding, because no foundational moral claim is implied by anything else, and no facts imply any moral claims (you can't get oughts from is's). It's inherently "emotional" so to speak. It's inherently simply how one feels about the idea of one behavior versus another possible behavior. I want to pursue this a little further. I'm wondering if you and I are talking about the same thing when we say "morality". What I mean by morality is abiding by a social contract. Social contracts are necessary for any community, no matter how small, to survive. I don't want to be the victim of murder or theft, so the contract requires me not to also victimize others. That, to me, is an intellectual grounding to not act immorally (violate the social contract).
I'm digging a bit deeper than that. It's going to take a few steps to explain, though, and it's necessary that you think a bit about each step. First, consider this: the social contract isn't just arbitrary, is it? What I mean by that is that we're not effectively just throwing dice for our answers to questions like, "Should we allow people to murder each other? Should we allow people to rape each other?" Etc. Do you agree that it's not just arbitrary?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 6, 2018 15:36:43 GMT
lowtacks86 I'm saying the animal population deals with it although, yes, I do think most animals certainly know where babies come from in an instinctual way which is also largely the reason people have sex. It's just that with choices and intelligence in face of a lack of desire to have a kid should come better control. If a kid is 10 and doesn't know where babies come from, they have sucky parents and were probably almost aborted. why do people keep saying I'm making a strawman on my own topic. What in the blue hell does that have to do with whether or not your statement was a strawman? By the way, it was a strawman. A strawman to what?
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Post by Isapop on Feb 6, 2018 15:38:07 GMT
I want to pursue this a little further. I'm wondering if you and I are talking about the same thing when we say "morality". What I mean by morality is abiding by a social contract. Social contracts are necessary for any community, no matter how small, to survive. I don't want to be the victim of murder or theft, so the contract requires me not to also victimize others. That, to me, is an intellectual grounding to not act immorally (violate the social contract).
I'm digging a bit deeper than that. It's going to take a few steps to explain, though, and it's necessary that you think a bit about each step. First, consider this: the social contract isn't just arbitrary, is it? What I mean by that is that we're not effectively just throwing dice for our answers to questions like, "Should we allow people to murder each other? Should we allow people to rape each other?" Etc. Do you agree that it's not just arbitrary? I agree it's not arbitrary. My wish not to be murdered certainly isn't arbitrary, and I trust yours isn't either.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Feb 6, 2018 15:39:03 GMT
What in the blue hell does that have to do with whether or not your statement was a strawman? By the way, it was a strawman. A strawman to what? I'm sure lowtacks appreciates you proving him right. You really don't know what a strawman is. I'm shocked.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 6, 2018 15:43:47 GMT
I'm digging a bit deeper than that. It's going to take a few steps to explain, though, and it's necessary that you think a bit about each step. First, consider this: the social contract isn't just arbitrary, is it? What I mean by that is that we're not effectively just throwing dice for our answers to questions like, "Should we allow people to murder each other? Should we allow people to rape each other?" Etc. Do you agree that it's not just arbitrary? I agree it's not arbitrary. My wish not to be murdered certainly isn't arbitrary, and I trust yours isn't either. Right. So the reason that the social contract would be what it is is that people have desires and preferences when it comes to behavior. They prefer that we don't murder each other because they prefer for themselves and their loved ones to stay alive, and for society in general to flourish, and so on, right? And they believe that allowing murder wouldn't bring that about.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 6, 2018 15:47:44 GMT
Trying to fix typos as fast as I can, by the way. I'm posting from my kindle. I type really sloppily on mobile devices, and also autocorrect isn't always my friend. ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 15:56:19 GMT
Strawman?
<fart noise>
What's the matter, smart ass, you don't know any modus ponens?
Seriously, "Internet Argument Guy," you're a walking cliche.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 6, 2018 16:01:32 GMT
lowtacks86You're changing the topic to one of raising a kid from one of how kids are made. Why? I mentioned no where in my posts the notion of parental responsibility.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 6, 2018 16:08:34 GMT
This thread has apparently turned into a topic about strawmen because the initial topic was so slight..
If a new thread was started, would it just be a strawman thread until the ones who judge what a strawman is determines it strawman free?
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Post by Vegas on Feb 6, 2018 16:12:37 GMT
This thread has apparently turned into a topic about strawmen because the initial topic was so slight.. If a new thread was started, would it just be a strawman thread until the ones who judge what a strawman is determines it strawman free? That's exactly what a strawman would say!!
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 6, 2018 16:15:39 GMT
This thread has apparently turned into a topic about strawmen because the initial topic was so slight.. If a new thread was started, would it just be a strawman thread until the ones who judge what a strawman is determines it strawman free? That's exactly what a strawman would say!! Pfft, that's just a strawman so I'm not going to reply in the wordiest way possible...
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Feb 6, 2018 16:16:58 GMT
Somebody thinks that a strawman is something people judge. No surprise it's the same somebody who thinks "ABIOGENESIS IS PSEUDOSCIENCE!!!"
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 6, 2018 16:18:47 GMT
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Post by Vegas on Feb 6, 2018 16:20:50 GMT
A strawman to what? I'm sure lowtacks appreciates you proving him right. You really don't know what a strawman is. I'm shocked. I don't read that Smithy was attempting to refute Lowtack's argument by pointing out that abortion is seen as somehow empowering women thus creating an attempt to answer to an argument not raised by Lowtack. It's merely added as an observation that Smithy finds questionable. Thus.. It's not really a strawman. I know this opinion might bring your condemnation and scorn... but... fuck you, if it does.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Feb 6, 2018 16:24:34 GMT
I'm sure lowtacks appreciates you proving him right. You really don't know what a strawman is. I'm shocked. I don't read that Smithy was attempting to refute Lowtack's argument by pointing out that abortion is seen as somehow empowering women thus creating an attempt to answer to an argument not raised by Lowtack. It's merely added as an observation that Smithy finds questionable. Thus.. It's not really a strawman. I know this opinion might bring your condemnation and scorn... but... fuck you, if it does.
"If a kid is 10 and doesn't know where babies come from, they have sucky parents and were probably almost aborted." ^That's a strawman. I know reality is your sworn enemy and especially whenever you have a fellow JW defender to defend, but fuck you.
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