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Post by Isapop on Feb 5, 2018 13:54:08 GMT
At least I think it does. If you agree that a PERSON should have a legally recognized right to life, then the question becomes, "Is the fetus a person?" The Bible teaches that every person is inherently sinful (due to Adam & Eve's transgression). And Psalms 51:5 says, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Non-persons cannot be sinful, so if the author was sinful at conception, he must have been a person from conception, which means blah, blah, blah, you get the rest.
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Post by Catman on Feb 5, 2018 14:03:11 GMT
And the Bible is not the basis for law in the United States.
EOD.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 5, 2018 14:09:31 GMT
I don;t need belief or the law to tell me how disgusting a practice abortion is.
All I have to do is make sure I don;t involve myself in it.
BOOM! Sleeping well at night...
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Post by kls on Feb 5, 2018 14:17:52 GMT
I'm not sure why the concept of original sin implies personhood from conception. It's something we are all born with. It isn't making a conscious choice to sin.
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Post by Vegas on Feb 5, 2018 14:20:02 GMT
OMG!! Wait.... So those things in women's bellies are people???!!  DOES THE REST OF THE WORLD KNOW??!! |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 5, 2018 14:20:59 GMT
Why anyone cares what the Bible says is the mystery to me. Even if you have religious beliefs, it's a horribly written book full of highly questionable behavior, beliefs, attitudes, etc.
Aside from that, I don't hinge any ethical views solely on personhood. Personhood is a factor in some ethical views I hold, but never the only factor.
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Post by Isapop on Feb 5, 2018 14:25:21 GMT
I'm not sure why the concept of original sin implies personhood from conception. It's something we are all born with. It isn't making a conscious choice to sin. According to the scripture I quoted we are sinful from conception. And you MUST be a person to be sinful. Therefore the Bible implies you are a person from conception. |
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Post by Isapop on Feb 5, 2018 14:43:20 GMT
I don;t need belief or the law to tell me how disgusting a practice abortion is. All I have to do is make sure I don;t involve myself in it. BOOM! Sleeping well at night... So your personal stance on abortion is based simply on your own visceral reaction to it. A primitive criterion, but you're entitled to it. |
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 5, 2018 14:48:53 GMT
At least I think it does. If you agree that a PERSON should have a legally recognized right to life, then the question becomes, "Is the fetus a person?" The Bible teaches that every person is inherently sinful (due to Adam & Eve's transgression). And Psalms 51:5 says, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Non-persons cannot be sinful, so if the author was sinful at conception, he must have been a person from conception, which means blah, blah, blah, you get the rest.
Yes, I think most would agree that this is the obviously intended meaning and interpretation. But...what’s your point? Because correct or not, this is hardly substantive when it comes to what our laws should be. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 5, 2018 14:51:12 GMT
I don;t need belief or the law to tell me how disgusting a practice abortion is. All I have to do is make sure I don;t involve myself in it. BOOM! Sleeping well at night... So your personal stance on abortion is based simply on your own visceral reaction to it. A primitive criterion, but you're entitled to it. Not visceral. there's plenty of reason to find certain practices disgusting and I've laid them out plenty of times before with nary a scripture in sight. |
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Post by Isapop on Feb 5, 2018 14:58:32 GMT
And the Bible is not the basis for law in the United States. EOD. Of course it's not. But it IS, for some, a basis for forming value judgments. And the question of whether a fetus is a person IS a value judgment. It is not a matter of gathering evidence.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 5, 2018 15:06:41 GMT
And the Bible is not the basis for law in the United States. EOD. Of course it's not. But it IS, for some, a basis for forming value judgments. And the question of whether a fetus is a person IS a value judgment. It is not a matter of gathering evidence.
The question of whether a fetus is a person is not a value judgement lol. Abortion fans never understood the very real fact that the definition of personage in relation to abortion was decided by law. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 5, 2018 15:13:16 GMT
I don;t need belief or the law to tell me how disgusting a practice abortion is. All I have to do is make sure I don;t involve myself in it. BOOM! Sleeping well at night... So your personal stance on abortion is based simply on your own visceral reaction to it. A primitive criterion, but you're entitled to it. Everyone's moral stance on everything, assuming that it's really a moral stance they hold and they're not just parroting someone else's moral stances, where they don't have an opinion on it themselves, is based simply on their own visceral reaction. That's what morality is ontologically. |
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Post by Vegas on Feb 5, 2018 15:16:31 GMT
I'm not really getting what you think is so detrimental in The Bible saying that we are created sinful.... not that unborn babies are somehow already sinning.. there's no whorehouse casinos in there... just that we are created.. from the moment that we are conceived.. "sinful", i.e. imperfect and flawed... and going to die because we are inherently flawed as such.  - "THE BIBLE THINKS THAT THE UNBORN ARE PEOPLE!!! HOW DARES IT, I SAY!!! BOULDERDASH!!! BOULDERDASH AND POPPYCOCK!! ANY MAN OF SCIENCE KNOWS THAT A BABY DOESN'T BECOME A HUMAN UNTIL HE SEES THE SUN!!"
Oh yeah.... Some people might view killing an unborn human like killing a human that has already been born.
HOW DARE THEY!!
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 5, 2018 15:20:43 GMT
tpfkar According to the scripture I quoted we are sinful from conception. And you MUST be a person to be sinful. Therefore the Bible implies you are a person from conception. I've heard chocolate is sinful.
You'll be in heaven soon |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 5, 2018 15:29:19 GMT
At least I think it does. If you agree that a PERSON should have a legally recognized right to life, then the question becomes, "Is the fetus a person?" The Bible teaches that every person is inherently sinful (due to Adam & Eve's transgression). And Psalms 51:5 says, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Non-persons cannot be sinful, so if the author was sinful at conception, he must have been a person from conception, which means blah, blah, blah, you get the rest.
per¦son. [ˈpəːs(ə)n]
NOUN
.1.a human being regarded as an individual.
A fertilized ovum is not regarded as an individual, or a 'person' (a 'child'), for some time by medicine, since it cannot survive separately from the mother - a distinction that ancient science, such as it was, would be unable to formulate. The time that such survival is likely is usually the time at which most abortions cease to be legal. Let alone the fact that a person is a being that, typically, has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness. I see none of these in a cluster of cells. I hope that helps.
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Post by Isapop on Feb 5, 2018 15:29:52 GMT
Yes, I think most would agree that this is the obviously intended meaning and interpretation. But...what’s your point? Because correct or not, this is hardly substantive when it comes to what our laws should be. My point? Hmm... My OP was really in response to a challenge (another thread) made to an anti-abortion rights Christian to make a Bible based case against abortion. That Christian seems either too lazy or too ignorant to do it, so I thought, "What the hell, I'll take a a shot." And the "personhood status" of the fetus is a value judgment (in spite of CoolJGS' mindless lol); everyone's values will be influenced by different sources and experiences. So, on the question of abortion (specifically, perhaps uniquely) it's not enough to just say to pro-life Christians, "We don't make our laws based on the Bible."
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Post by Isapop on Feb 5, 2018 15:33:21 GMT
So your personal stance on abortion is based simply on your own visceral reaction to it. A primitive criterion, but you're entitled to it. Everyone's moral stance on everything, assuming that it's really a moral stance they hold and they're not just parroting someone else's moral stances, where they don't have an opinion on it themselves, is based simply on their own visceral reaction. That's what morality is ontologically. Even if morality is subjective, must it then be simply based on one's visceral reaction (such as disgust?). Can't morality have some intellectual grounding? |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 5, 2018 15:36:24 GMT
Can't morality have some intellectual grounding? No, it can't have any intellectual grounding, because no foundational moral claim is implied by anything else, and no facts imply any moral claims (you can't get oughts from is's). It's inherently "emotional" so to speak. It's inherently simply how one feels about the idea of one behavior versus another possible behavior. |
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Post by Isapop on Feb 5, 2018 15:44:00 GMT
At least I think it does. If you agree that a PERSON should have a legally recognized right to life, then the question becomes, "Is the fetus a person?" The Bible teaches that every person is inherently sinful (due to Adam & Eve's transgression). And Psalms 51:5 says, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Non-persons cannot be sinful, so if the author was sinful at conception, he must have been a person from conception, which means blah, blah, blah, you get the rest.
per¦son. [ˈpəːs(ə)n]
NOUN
.1.a human being regarded as an individual.
A fertilized ovum is not regarded as an individual, or a 'person' (a 'child'), for some time by medicine, since it cannot survive separately from the mother - a distinction that ancient science, such as it was, would be unable to formulate. The time that such survival is likely is usually the time at which most abortions cease to be legal. Let alone the fact that a person is a being that, typically, has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness. I see none of these in a cluster of cells. I hope that helps.
But FilmF, you asked Cody for a Bible based case against abortion. (And we both saw the futility of asking him much of anything.) And that's all I advertised in my subject heading. |
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