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Post by Vegas on Feb 16, 2018 19:15:22 GMT
I'm not gonna wait for the obligatory response..... Here it is in advance:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 20:02:55 GMT
tpfkar Well, hell, if I'd known I was supposed to work from Cupcakes' own, personal perception of the world when defining things like "love," I'd have gotten better than a failing grade on my "how do you rate as an atheist?" report. Okay, Cupcakes. Let's hear you out. What is love according to Cupcakes? Challenge: don't simply criticize how someone else defines love, but tell us from a positive, personal perspective how Cupcakes defines it.Certainly not bestial slaughter at whim, placing nasty curses on total innocents in capricious fits of no control, nor putting on bloodsoaked displays of sadism/masochism to then "remove" the silly curse he himself inflicted. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.<buzzer sound>
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 20:04:54 GMT
Well, hell, if I'd known I was supposed to work from Cupcakes' own, personal perception of the world when defining things like "love," I'd have gotten better than a failing grade on my "how do you rate as an atheist?" report. Okay, Cupcakes. Let's hear you out. What is love according to Cupcakes? Challenge: don't simply criticize how someone else defines love, but tell us from a positive, personal perspective how Cupcakes defines it. Love is the smell of your own farts. I always thought it was baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more.
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 16, 2018 20:06:29 GMT
tpfkar - "Love is... KARATE CHOP!! KARATE CHOP!!! KICK! PUNCH!" [i𝗆g src="http://image.toutlecine.com/photos/m/i/s/mise-a-prix-smoking-aces-2007-08-01-10-g.jpg" title="" alt="" style="" ] At least you didn't again share your oft-posted "love" video this time. I took a boat from Africa. Your granddad says "Hi".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 21:21:07 GMT
tpfkar Certainly not bestial slaughter at whim, placing nasty curses on total innocents in capricious fits of no control, nor putting on bloodsoaked displays of sadism/masochism to then "remove" the silly curse he himself inflicted. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.<buzzer sound> C'mon cupcakes. Prove the board wrong and show them you actually have some original thoughts. How do you define love?
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 16, 2018 21:22:12 GMT
tpfkar Certainly not bestial slaughter at whim, placing nasty curses on total innocents in capricious fits of no control, nor putting on bloodsoaked displays of sadism/masochism to then "remove" the silly curse he himself inflicted. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.<buzzer sound> Wonder why you changed your go-to sound source. For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 21:26:52 GMT
tpfkar Wonder why you changed your go-to sound source. For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.The buzzer sound is for when people lose. The fart noise is for when people say something they think is smart or great, but it isn't.
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 16, 2018 21:28:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 21:28:48 GMT
If you were perfect, you wouldn't have been wrong the first time. Especially with the benefit of omniscience and transcendence of space and time to be able to foresee the consequences of any decision. Again, changing your mind is not same thing as being wrong. If God had to change his mind, then his first decision wasn't perfect. There's no excuse for that, as a perfect being with complete omniscient.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 16, 2018 21:32:16 GMT
Again, changing your mind is not same thing as being wrong. If God had to change his mind, then his first decision wasn't perfect. There's no excuse for that, as a perfect being with complete omniscient. 1. His first decision would have nothing to do with the decisions of others. 2. There can easily be two reasonable decision to be made. I do it all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 23:10:56 GMT
At least you're consistently redundant in your ongoing failures!
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 16, 2018 23:14:42 GMT
tpfkar At least you're consistently redundant in your ongoing failures! At least you're entertainingly random on levels of rage/babble/depravity when you crater out. And still, Certainly not bestial slaughter at whim, placing nasty curses on total innocents in capricious fits of no control, nor putting on bloodsoaked displays of sadism/masochism to then "remove" the silly curse he himself inflicted. Oh, I just saw this because you've been on ignore since I told you you were on ignore. G'bye!
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Post by Rodney Farber on Feb 17, 2018 11:32:01 GMT
But, according to the story, it did eliminate all of the human/angel hybrids.. which was kind of the point... And, as far as the regular humans....I suppose it did eliminate all of those sinners.. That's just silly.. Parents don't let children drink coffee... knowing full well that they will be able to someday.
In addition to the sinners, the flood killed millions of innocent people and animals. Was it God's collateral damage? I call that murder since the all-powerful Jehovah/God/Lord should have found a way to eliminate only the sinners. As for your coffee analogy: silly weasel words. If coffee had been mentioned in the Bible, then Lord would have specified that children should not drink coffee. So (A) what changed between the Old Testament and New Testament that allows people to consume lobster and bacon? Unlike coffee, the age of the consumer is not an issue. And (B) If Jehovah is all-knowing, why did (S)He not incorporate that fact into the OT? (e.g. Thou shall not consume shellfish unless boiled for at least 8 minutes)
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Post by Vegas on Feb 17, 2018 12:58:59 GMT
In addition to the sinners, the flood killed millions of innocent people and animals. Was it God's collateral damage? I call that murder since the all-powerful Jehovah/God/Lord should have found a way to eliminate only the sinners. As for your coffee analogy: silly weasel words. If coffee had been mentioned in the Bible, then Lord would have specified that children should not drink coffee. So (A) what changed between the Old Testament and New Testament that allows people to consume lobster and bacon? Unlike coffee, the age of the consumer is not an issue. And (B) If Jehovah is all-knowing, why did (S)He not incorporate that fact into the OT? (e.g. Thou shall not consume shellfish unless boiled for at least 8 minutes) Silly moron words.
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Post by Vegas on Feb 17, 2018 13:24:04 GMT
In addition to the sinners, the flood killed millions of innocent people and animals. Was it God's collateral damage? I call that murder since the all-powerful Jehovah/God/Lord should have found a way to eliminate only the sinners. The story kinda implies that there wasn't any innocent people.. They had all either been corrupted or killed by the endless evil that was going on everywhere... As far as animals... A vegetarian, are ya? Look around.. The animals were saved... except for those poor, poor unicorns... What? You think that's because there wasn't really any flood?.... Then, tone your shit back, ya whiney fuck. - "BUT I WOULD HAVE DONE IT DIFFERENTLY!!" Nobody gives a shit, asshole. The story goes how the story goes.. and it's supposed also serve as a metaphor for future salvation... So that's the way it was said to have happened. None of that matters. Your argument is that one can't issue a rule knowing that it will change without being whatever the fuck you're whining about... The coffee analogy just shows that you can issue a rule knowing that the rule will change one day. That's it.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 17, 2018 13:40:46 GMT
You can be perfect and change you mind. How? I asked this question of wintersuicide, and his answer was not very good. If God is onmiscient and omnipotent, and exists out of time, then God knows all before it happens, he knows the outcome of every decision made and action taken, why would he change his mind in light of that, there can not be anything that possible comes as a surprise or reason to change. And that is not even getting into the idea of a perfect being changing in any way and still being perfect. I'm an atheist, but I agree with the comments of the religious side in this. Changing one's mind only implies that one stance or another was incorrect when we're talking about things that are context independent, supposing there are things that are context independent. (Which I personally find dubious.) Religious believers still believe that God created a dynamic world, even if God supposedly transcends time, etc. (That idea is rather the one to pick on--it doesn't make any sense; it rests on a misunderstanding of what time is.) That doesn't imply that God's interaction with humans, including moral commands and so on, wouldn't be context dependent .The idea that perfection and change aren't compatible is absurd . . . and it's also very western, where it's actually rooted in some of Plato's balderdash (though it's misleading to only blame him--surely seeing unchanging things as the "ultimate" is in Plato because it was a cultural norm for him). At any rate, eastern culture, influenced by Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. certainly does not see perfection as incompatible with change/dynamicism.
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Post by Arlon10 on Feb 17, 2018 13:51:24 GMT
How? I asked this question of wintersuicide, and his answer was not very good. If God is onmiscient and omnipotent, and exists out of time, then God knows all before it happens, he knows the outcome of every decision made and action taken, why would he change his mind in light of that, there can not be anything that possible comes as a surprise or reason to change. And that is not even getting into the idea of a perfect being changing in any way and still being perfect. I'm an atheist, but I agree with the comments of the religious side in this. Changing one's mind only implies that one stance or another was incorrect when we're talking about things that are context independent, supposing there are things that are context independent. (Which I personally find dubious.) Religious believers still believe that God created a dynamic world, even if God supposedly transcends time, etc. (That idea is rather the one to pick on--it doesn't make any sense; it rests on a misunderstanding of what time is.) That doesn't imply that God's interaction with humans, including moral commands and so on, wouldn't be context dependent .The idea that perfection and change aren't compatible is absurd . . . and it's also very western, where it's actually rooted in some of Plato's balderdash (though it's misleading to only blame him--surely seeing unchanging things as the "ultimate" is in Plato because it was a cultural norm for him). At any rate, eastern culture, influenced by Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. certainly does not see perfection as incompatible with change/dynamicism. You will have to be promoted to the smartest atheist on this board. You are correct. A "perfect" clock is not one that says 6:00 all the time. A perfect clock changes the time it reports to the actual time. "Smartest atheist" is not a big deal. It's like the tallest building in Wichita. Still it isn't bad.
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Post by phludowin on Feb 17, 2018 15:03:28 GMT
I read the thread, but still would like to comment on one point. The very idea that a lack of evolution signifies perfection goes against the grain of every lesson I have ever learned as a human on this planet. then you have not learned very well, you already know what the definition of perfect is: If a being already has all the required elements, qualities and characteristics and is as good (not in a moral) sense as it is as possible to be, then any change will change that state, moving them away from perfection. It is basic logic. Not necessarily. Let's say there's a recipe for the perfect cake. Meaning: A cake that could not possibly taste better. Then, for reasons unbeknownst to us, one ingredient stops existing; but some other ingredients appear (ecological reasons; whatever). So the chefs who can make the cake try out different alternative ingredients, and finally find one which allows them to make the perfect cake again. No cake can taste better, and the cake with the new recipe tastes as good as the cake with the old recipe. So we have two different recipes for cake, and both are perfect. This is assuming that it is possible to agree on taste. Hypothetical of course, but then, so is the existence of deities. It's just to illustrate that if perfection means "as good as possible", then it doesn't necessarily mean unchanging.
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 17, 2018 15:45:38 GMT
tpfkar In addition to the sinners, the flood killed millions of innocent people and animals. Was it God's collateral damage? I call that murder since the all-powerful Jehovah/God/Lord should have found a way to eliminate only the sinners. The story kinda implies that there wasn't any innocent people.. They had all either been corrupted or killed by the endless evil that was going on everywhere... As far as animals... A vegetarian, are ya? Look around.. The animals were saved... except for those poor, poor unicorns... What? You think that's because there wasn't really any flood?.... Then, tone your shit back, ya whiney fuck. - "BUT I WOULD HAVE DONE IT DIFFERENTLY!!" Nobody gives a shit, asshole. Yeah all those kids and infants were real degenerates. And the dude you're responding to isn't claiming to be a "loving" god. And, yes, the American Bison was "saved" as well. And try decaf. I'm not demeaning a rape victim... I'm demeaning a bitch who happens to be a rape victim.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 18, 2018 19:11:01 GMT
gadreel I've already stated my answer and the conversation continues to turn to your version of God and how my answer fits within that. I can;t add to what I've already stated and it seems as if the argument becomes circular. The best arguments are the ones that build on the discussion or, if there's no where to go, end. Again, again, that is not what it's about. It's about whether changing your mind is wrong. I don;t like addrsssing the foreknowledge because it gives you the opportunity to bring up omniscience again which is done with, but let's pretend he has foreknowledge of everything, then maybe he can;t change his mind on something. So then the simple answer is "No", he can't change his mind since he already knows what he's going to do and the discussion is ended. What's the issue? This is the part your need to focus on because this is where the actual disagreement starts. Changing you mind IS NOT synonymous with the correcting of a mistake and especially if your mind being changed is based on external factors such as free will of your creation.
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