|
Post by kuatorises on Mar 14, 2018 19:27:47 GMT
WWII? No, no, no, no, no. no, no. Even in WWII it wasn't that cut and dry. No one walks away from any war totally clean. Fighting Nazis is absolutely that cut and dry.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Mar 14, 2018 19:31:36 GMT
Even in WWII it wasn't that cut and dry. No one walks away from any war totally clean. Fighting Nazis is absolutely that cut and dry. Even the conscript soldiers who were forced into it and had no Nazi beliefs?
|
|
|
Post by kuatorises on Mar 14, 2018 19:42:06 GMT
Fighting Nazis is absolutely that cut and dry. Even the conscript soldiers who were forced into it and had no Nazi beliefs? Well, I would have to imagine that if you are willing to absolve those who were forced into being Nazis, you wouldn't have much of a problem absolving those who killed/captured/arrested them for not knowing the difference between the real and fake Nazis in the battlefield. I mean, it's not like the ones who were forced into it wore a different color uniform.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Mar 14, 2018 19:53:36 GMT
Even the conscript soldiers who were forced into it and had no Nazi beliefs? Well, I would have to imagine that if you are willing to absolve those who were forced into being Nazis, you wouldn't have much of a problem absolving those who killed/captured/arrested them for not knowing the difference between the real and fake Nazis in the battlefield. I mean, it's not like the ones who were forced into it wore a different color uniform. What I'm getting at is that even in WWII, one of the most clear cases of "We're fighting against a maniac Dark Lord" in Human History, there were still cases of it not being so clear cut. And then there were things like the American Internment Camps for Japanese-Americans and stuff. So Steve objecting to things even in WWII isn't unbelievable.
|
|
|
Post by kuatorises on Mar 14, 2018 19:59:29 GMT
Well, I would have to imagine that if you are willing to absolve those who were forced into being Nazis, you wouldn't have much of a problem absolving those who killed/captured/arrested them for not knowing the difference between the real and fake Nazis in the battlefield. I mean, it's not like the ones who were forced into it wore a different color uniform. What I'm getting at is that even in WWII, one of the most clear cases of "We're fighting against a maniac Dark Lord" in Human History, there were still cases of it not being so clear cut. And then there were things like the American Internment Camps for Japanese-Americans and stuff. So Steve objecting to things even in WWII isn't unbelievable.Steve not only signed up for the war, but an experimental program because he so strongly believed in supporting the cause. Fast-forward 70 years and he doubts whether that was the right choice or not. It's not unbelievable, it's simply wrong.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Mar 14, 2018 20:05:18 GMT
What I'm getting at is that even in WWII, one of the most clear cases of "We're fighting against a maniac Dark Lord" in Human History, there were still cases of it not being so clear cut. And then there were things like the American Internment Camps for Japanese-Americans and stuff. So Steve objecting to things even in WWII isn't unbelievable.Steve not only signed up for the war, but an experimental program because he so strongly believed in supporting the cause. Fast-forward 70 years and he doubts whether that was the right choice or not. It's not unbelievable, it's simply wrong. He signed up for the war when all he knew was what the propaganda tapes were bringing in, and then he got 3 or so years of fighting in it to give him a taste of the reality of the conflict. It's called character development, people don't just stay the same.
|
|
|
Post by Daisy on Mar 14, 2018 20:18:27 GMT
Even in WWII it wasn't that cut and dry. No one walks away from any war totally clean. Fighting Nazis is absolutely that cut and dry. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't known Germany was exterminating Jews until the war was almost over. The first concentration camp was discovered by Soviet soldiers in July, 1944.
|
|
|
Post by damngumby on Mar 14, 2018 21:54:15 GMT
Are you complaining about character development?
In the beginning Steve Rogers had a rather simplistic view of the world. There were good guys and bad guys. He was a kid ... probably only a few years removed from playing with superhero action figures ... so he had an excuse.
Fast forward to present day and Steve Rogers has had first-hand experience with the ambiguity of the real world. Secret organizations operating above the law ... good guys being bad ... bad guys being good ... choosing the lesser of two evils. Clearly he is having some second thoughts about his view of the world and his role in it. It’s a lot more “nuanced” than he though when he was a youngster.
His story arch has gone from gung-ho Boy Scout to a conflicted war criminal on the run ... and how it will end is anyone’s guess.
It’s understandable that the superhero action figure crowd doesn’t like that. Which box of toys do you put Captain America in? Good toys or bad toy?
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Mar 14, 2018 22:32:19 GMT
Fighting Nazis is absolutely that cut and dry. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't known Germany was exterminating Jews until the war was almost over. The first concentration camp was discovered by Soviet soldiers in July, 1944. no, the existence of concentration camps and the Nazis' intention to exterminate the Jews was long known before that from reports, intelligence and witnesses, and was even discussed in parliaments; this is public record. www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holocaust-allied-forces-knew-before-concentration-camp-discovery-us-uk-soviets-secret-documents-a7688036.htmlThey may not have had reliable info on the exact extent of the murder or the means (Zyklon B gas) but this is irrelevant. More importantly, even if the holocaust had never happened, have you ever heard of all the other crimes committed by Nazis and their allies? The Reichkristallnacht pogrom 1938, the discriminations and racist ideology, the Guernica bombings in Spain or the African invasions or the war crimes against the Eastern countries? Do you really think you need a report on the full extent of the Shoa to realize how "cut and dry" fighting Nazism is?
|
|
|
Post by merh on Mar 15, 2018 3:27:11 GMT
You do not get the character This is a typical response from someone who can't handle criticism of a movie/character they do not like. Classic fan boy/girl response. It bothers you that someone doesn't like something you like, see you come back to the childish, "You don't get it" type response. Now, would you like to have an actual discussion or do you want to continue being a child? Sorry. 15 hours ago would be around 3AM so i was probably being short because i was planning to go to sleep. How in the pucking hell is commenting you dont get the character childish? My job is to "get" people when I interview them. What dod he disagree with in 1st avenger? He was fighting Nazis. He sacrificed himself to save NYC from Red Skull's ship crashing into it. Cap like Superman has a strong moral compass. Right vs wrong. Its not easy. As Captain America he is not about BEING America, of representing our government. People on government come & go. Cap is our higher minded ideals. He does it to protect the weak. He does it to remind us who we should be, not the reality of who we are because we fall short much of the time. A lot of people did. Lied about their ages, etc. Serving one's country. You don't seem to be accounting for how people were then. Why the Kents taught Clark to be a hero to save others You don't allow for how people perceived servicenof one's nation. He kept trying to volunteer to join the military to fight bullies like the ones that kept beating him up for being weak. Erskine dangled the means of he finally achieving his dream to serve his country, not "Steve volunteered to beat up Nazis." Meaning you dont get his basic motivation. He played the good soldier in the first Avengers movie. Tony is the insecure idiot. Tony is what has gotten them in trouble most of the time. Tony was freaked out by the existence of aliens. It upset his solid reality of science & he has been trying to cope since. Ultron was entirely Tony's fear. He wants to protect those in his sphere. Coulson was his annoying government grunt & Loki stole him. Tony sees the world as his playtoy. Everything around him is his to play with. Ultron was his irrational attempt to bubblewrap his friends so he wouldnt lose them. So he could be the protector who saved all his friends so he wouldnt lose them like he lost his parents. Tony is freaked out by Thor as a god or an alien. He is going to be even more freaked by Stephen Strange's magic which also grants Thor magic. Asgardians have called it science to calm humans' fears, but not Thor commented Earth has magic now meaning no need to cover Asgardian magic such as Loki uses. Tony is freaked out by all the people with powers popping up. He backs the registration so they can be tracked, so they can't take him by surprise. Cap has seen the excesses of government, of humans manipulating it as they choose as seen by Hydra. What would stop a corrupt government from using registered people as slaves or putting them in camps as we did to the Japanese in WWII. Steve believes they are best able to react to situations rather than waiting for a government to vote to act. It was the government that ordered the nuke in Avengers. They planned to kill people like Stephen Strange in Winter Soldier. So how is Cap wrong? And is this toi childish a response for you? I have other points I could make, but I have a cat bothering me.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Mar 15, 2018 3:40:43 GMT
Steve Rogers never gave a shit about WWII. Remember that upon waking up in 2011 and hearing from Nick Fury that he had been asleep for 70 years, Rogers never even bothered to ask "Did we win the war?" or "Who won the war?". That would've been the 1st question that a true soldier would've asked. But Rogers didn't give a shit a WWII. Rogers joined the Army only because the other soldiers got the girls so Rogers wanted to be a soldier so he could get girls too. And that's why Rogers' 1st reaction upon hearing Fury tell him that he had been asleep for 70 years was that he wouldn't get to screw Peggy Carter. Gee, you think Times Square being recognizable with the signs basically in English meaning it pretty much resembled America mesns the US won? Didn't the North win the Civil War? Gee, you think with the North winning the Civil War, there wouldn't be any more Confederate flags or Confederate statues in the southern states. But there are! Hmmm, looks like your theory is flawed. It would be a fallacy to make such an assumption that Times Square having English signs meant America won the war. There were still plenty of French signs in France after the Nazis took over Paris. France is a big country so the Nazis controlled a huge portion of France but they didn't control all of France. And America is an even bigger country than France. So it could've easily been a Man in the High Castle scenario where the Nazis controlled a portion of America, the Japanese controlled a portion of America, and a 3rd portion of America wasn't under Axis control. The Axis could've taken over some or most of America, with New York being 1 of the few remaining areas in America not controlled by the Axis. Steve Rogers had no way of knowing that and definitely couldn't assume anything from the English signs in Times Square. But like I said, Steve Rogers never gave a shit about WWII.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Mar 15, 2018 3:42:24 GMT
Steve Rogers never gave a shit about WWII. Remember that upon waking up in 2011 and hearing from Nick Fury that he had been asleep for 70 years, Rogers never even bothered to ask "Did we win the war?" or "Who won the war?". That would've been the 1st question that a true soldier would've asked. But Rogers didn't give a shit a WWII. Rogers joined the Army only because the other soldiers got the girls so Rogers wanted to be a soldier so he could get girls too. And that's why Rogers' 1st reaction upon hearing Fury tell him that he had been asleep for 70 years was that he wouldn't get to screw Peggy Carter. Superman's worse, he was ready to kill the Justice League No, Superman was defending himself against an attack. Cyborg fired at Superman first.
|
|
|
Post by Daisy on Mar 15, 2018 3:45:19 GMT
Gee, you think Times Square being recognizable with the signs basically in English meaning it pretty much resembled America mesns the US won? Didn't the North win the Civil War? Gee, you think with the North winning the Civil War, there wouldn't be any more Confederate flags or Confederate statues in the southern states. But there are! Hmmm, looks like your theory is flawed. It would be a fallacy to make such an assumption that Times Square having English signs meant America won the war. There were still plenty of French signs in France after the Nazis took over Paris. France is a big country so the Nazis controlled a huge portion of France but they didn't control all of France. And America is an even bigger country than France. So it could've easily been a Man in the High Castle scenario where the Nazis controlled a portion of America, the Japanese controlled a portion of America, and a 3rd portion of America wasn't under Axis control. The Axis could've taken over some or most of America, with New York being 1 of the few remaining areas in America not controlled by the Axis. Steve Rogers had no way of knowing that and definitely couldn't assume anything from the English signs in Times Square. But like I said, Steve Rogers never gave a shit about WWII. Why did you get the 'real critics'/WW/BP thread deleted?
|
|
|
Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Mar 15, 2018 3:47:45 GMT
WWII? No, no, no, no, no. no, no. WWII is absolutely positively unequivocally a just war. There's no questioning that. There's a lot of questioning of that. if it was a just war why are the peace deals between Hitler and Churchill being kept sealed for another 20 years? If it was a just war, why were so many prominent Americans in the America First movement (including JFK)? Maybe the war was inevitable, but just? Tell that to those killed on both sides--or those that dealt with the aftermath like the descendants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki or the Soviet takeover of Eastern Europe. There were very few WW 2 movies made between 45 until the 60s precisely because people who fought it didn't find it a good war.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Mar 15, 2018 4:00:09 GMT
Steve Rogers never gave a shit about WWII. Remember that upon waking up in 2011 and hearing from Nick Fury that he had been asleep for 70 years, Rogers never even bothered to ask "Did we win the war?" or "Who won the war?". That would've been the 1st question that a true soldier would've asked. But Rogers didn't give a shit a WWII. Rogers joined the Army only because the other soldiers got the girls so Rogers wanted to be a soldier so he could get girls too. And that's why Rogers' 1st reaction upon hearing Fury tell him that he had been asleep for 70 years was that he wouldn't get to screw Peggy Carter. Stop being you for once. The guy just woke up 70 years in the future – he's a little shell-shocked. Superman up and attacked the Justice league after coming back from the dead because he was a “little fuzzy” No, Superman didn't attack the JL because he was a "little fuzzy". Superman was defending himself against an attack. Cyborg fired at Superman first. Steve’s problem is that he is paranoid to the point of being anti-authority. Every single action taken by the government and/or military in every movie after his first movie he objects to. In the first Avengers movie when he discovers Nick Fury is using Hydra technology to build weapons, he freaks out, despite the fact fury explains why they are doing it (events from Thor 1). In the Winter Soldier he thinks that SHIELD needs to be destroyed because it has been infiltrated by Hydra spies. That’s like saying the FBI, CIA, ATF, or your local police precinct needs to be dismantled every time a crooked cop or spy is discovered; which is absolutely ridiculous. We're in agreement. In fact, I've even pointed out many times to MCU fans here who defend Cap's actions how wrong Cap is. I've pointed out that, contrary to Cap's claims that government is corrupt, GOVERNMENT ISN'T CORRUPT, PEOPLE ARE CORRUPT. But MCU fans here didn't understand that point. So I gave MCU fans here a simple explanation: The American people didn't say "POTUS is a crook. Let's abolish the Presidency and have no POTUS at all." The American people said "Nixon is corrupt. Let's get rid of Nixon." When there's a crooked cop or a few crooked cops in the Police Department, you get rid of those crooked cops, you don't get rid of ALL cops. Likewise, when there are corrupt politicians and other individuals working in government, you get rid of those corrupt INDIVIDUALS, you don't get rid of all GOVERNMENT employees. If there are HYDRA agents in the government, you get rid of those HYDRA agents, you don't get rid of ALL government. What Steve Rogers advocated is the extreme - getting rid of ALL government and having no government, except himself. In other words, what Steve Rogers wants is himself making ALL the decisions about what's best for the people, basically himself as Dictator or Tyrant. By the time Civil War comes around he believes superheroes are above the authorities and refuses to sign anything that would make them adhere to guidelines, walls, or be held accountable Steve Rogers excuse for refusing to sign anything that would make the Avengers adhere to guidelines or be held accountable was "The safest hands are our own." What a load of BS! Wanda just caused a bomb to detonate and blow out the side of a building, killing many innocent civilians who wouldn't have been killed if the Avengers hadn't been there. So how the fuck is that safe for those people in the building who were killed by the bomb that Wanda caused to detonate and blow out the side of the building? It's obvious from Wanda causing the bomb to blow out the building that the Avengers aren't capable of policing themselves. So since the avengers aren't capable of policing themselves, then some kind of oversight is clearly needed. People say that both Cap and Iron Man had valid arguments for their side. That's BS! Cap had NO VALID ARGUMENT for his side. CAP'S TEAM KILLED MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN KILLED IF NOT FOR THE AVENGERS. TEHRE IS NO ARGUMENT FOR CAP'S SIDE!
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Mar 15, 2018 4:01:21 GMT
I don't think that comment indicates that he had a problem with the signing of the Lend-Lease act bringing us closer to war.
He doesn't say, "I would say it brought us closer to war," he says 'some (as in others) would say that it brought us closer to war.' To me, he is merely pointing out to Tony that there is more than one possible interpretation of a situation. He is trying to prompt Tony to look at the other side of the Accords argument. We all know that the Lend-Lease act was just and saved many lives; however, examining critical analysis of the same doesn't make you an instant traitor. Ever since Steve woke up, he's been reading and studying history to learn what happened in and to our country during the 70 years he was asleep. It's commendable that he would look at both perspectives on any given topic with regards to American intervention in a given conflict. He is not merely subscribing to jingoistic doctrine and saluting on command. He's just as much a student as he is a soldier. With that in mind, he was trying to prompt Tony to look at the other side - not even agree with it - just to consider it. He never adopted that position as his own; he just said it existed and he implied it was worthy of examination even if it was to be rejected shortly after that. As to the reason he remained a soldier in spite of his doubts and reservations regarding what our Government does and does not do, that is simple. He's a human being. To leave the service would have left him with few prospects and even less in the way of purpose. He wanted to believe until the moment where he was forced to reconcile his doubts with his beliefs. Happy? LOL, Wow! Talk about twisting someone's words. That was some Kellyanne Conway level maneuvering. I can smell the bullshit on your breath through my monitor. LOL! Lord Death Man just got owned!
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Mar 15, 2018 4:09:21 GMT
I'm pretty sure that it wasn't known Germany was exterminating Jews until the war was almost over. The first concentration camp was discovered by Soviet soldiers in July, 1944. no, the existence of concentration camps and the Nazis' intention to exterminate the Jews was long known before that from reports, intelligence and witnesses, and was even discussed in parliaments; this is public record. www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holocaust-allied-forces-knew-before-concentration-camp-discovery-us-uk-soviets-secret-documents-a7688036.htmlThey may not have had reliable info on the exact extent of the murder or the means (Zyklon B gas) but this is irrelevant. More importantly, even if the holocaust had never happened, have you ever heard of all the other crimes committed by Nazis and their allies? The Reichkristallnacht pogrom 1938, the discriminations and racist ideology, the Guernica bombings in Spain or the African invasions or the war crimes against the Eastern countries? Do you really think you need a report on the full extent of the Shoa to realize how "cut and dry" fighting Nazism is? Yes, the atrocities against Jews were known long before the Soviets discovered the first concentration camp. That's why there are many stories of people trying to help Jews hide from or escape from the Nazis. That's why Anne Frank and her family hid in an attic for a couple of years. But many MCU fans, like daisyb, didn't know that because they're kids so they haven't gotten that far yet in their World History class.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Mar 15, 2018 4:12:07 GMT
Didn't the North win the Civil War? Gee, you think with the North winning the Civil War, there wouldn't be any more Confederate flags or Confederate statues in the southern states. But there are! Hmmm, looks like your theory is flawed. It would be a fallacy to make such an assumption that Times Square having English signs meant America won the war. There were still plenty of French signs in France after the Nazis took over Paris. France is a big country so the Nazis controlled a huge portion of France but they didn't control all of France. And America is an even bigger country than France. So it could've easily been a Man in the High Castle scenario where the Nazis controlled a portion of America, the Japanese controlled a portion of America, and a 3rd portion of America wasn't under Axis control. The Axis could've taken over some or most of America, with New York being 1 of the few remaining areas in America not controlled by the Axis. Steve Rogers had no way of knowing that and definitely couldn't assume anything from the English signs in Times Square. But like I said, Steve Rogers never gave a shit about WWII. Why did you get the 'real critics'/WW/BP thread deleted? I haven't deleted anything. And I don't go crying and whining to the mods like MCU fans do every time I own them in a thread.
|
|
|
Post by merh on Mar 15, 2018 4:25:37 GMT
Gee, you think Times Square being recognizable with the signs basically in English meaning it pretty much resembled America mesns the US won? Didn't the North win the Civil War? Gee, you think with the North winning the Civil War, there wouldn't be any more Confederate flags or Confederate statues in the southern states. But there are! Hmmm, looks like your theory is flawed. Because we have a fricken 1st Amendment that would likely be gone if Germany had won? We allowed the vanquished South to keep their symbols. Germany put undesirables in camps & killed them. France occupation was during the war. Had they won, Germany would have tightened their control. As it was, they were sort of busy trying to defeat their enemies. It wouldnt be a fricken sci fi novel, dude. Dick had more than a couple issues. Not exactly a good source for anything except fantasy. How many Captain America books have you read?
|
|
|
Post by Nicko's Nose on Mar 15, 2018 4:48:15 GMT
LOL, Wow! Talk about twisting someone's words. That was some Kellyanne Conway level maneuvering. I can smell the bullshit on your breath through my monitor. LOL! Lord Death Man just got owned! and once again you’ve just “owned” yourself by saying someone got “owned”. You’re over 15, right?
|
|