|
Post by gadreel on Mar 20, 2018 1:18:26 GMT
Are you perfect? Is it hard to get rid of those niggling little habits you have that make things harder for you or are detrimental to your life? I am not the one setting up a perfect standard like your Christ! Still the question stands, are you perfect, are there flaws in your behaviour that you find it hard to get rid of that impede you in life?
|
|
|
Post by goz on Mar 20, 2018 1:55:48 GMT
I am not the one setting up a perfect standard like your Christ! Still the question stands, are you perfect, are there flaws in your behaviour that you find it hard to get rid of that impede you in life? TBH I don't understand the point of the question to this thread, or in fact anything much. What is a question about my personal behaviour as an atheist, relevant to this discussion about the moral flaws and hypocrisy of Christian religions ( and others). I hold myself to my own standards, which in comparison I like to think of as quite high. Godly 'perfection' is a religious viewpoint and not applicable to me.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Mar 20, 2018 2:02:22 GMT
Still the question stands, are you perfect, are there flaws in your behaviour that you find it hard to get rid of that impede you in life? TBH I don't understand the point of the question to this thread, or in fact anything much. What is a question about my personal behaviour as an atheist, relevant to this discussion about the moral flaws and hypocrisy of Christian religions ( and others). I hold myself to my own standards, which in comparison I like to think of as quite high. Godly 'perfection' is a religious viewpoint and not applicable to me. The point is that we are all flawed, and we all need to do work on ourselves. The fact that Christianity phrases this fact in a way you do not like is simply down to personal taste. Naturally the argument you will use will be that Christianity asks you to strive for perfection, to be completely sinless, firstly this is not true, but secondly as it is worded to apply to everyone it has to be harsher on the assessment of sin. If the bible simply said, oh you should make sure you don't murder and try not to covet your neighbours oxen, George who does neither of these things can walk away, so it points out as much sin of humanity as it can find so that we may see our own sins and work on them. (please don't jump on the word sin,you know exactly what I mean) Oh and no Christian is called to Godly perfection, perfection is reserved for God itself.
|
|
|
Post by goz on Mar 20, 2018 4:21:07 GMT
TBH I don't understand the point of the question to this thread, or in fact anything much. What is a question about my personal behaviour as an atheist, relevant to this discussion about the moral flaws and hypocrisy of Christian religions ( and others). I hold myself to my own standards, which in comparison I like to think of as quite high. Godly 'perfection' is a religious viewpoint and not applicable to me. The point is that we are all flawed, and we all need to do work on ourselves. The fact that Christianity phrases this fact in a way you do not like is simply down to personal taste. Naturally the argument you will use will be that Christianity asks you to strive for perfection, to be completely sinless, firstly this is not true, but secondly as it is worded to apply to everyone it has to be harsher on the assessment of sin. If the bible simply said, oh you should make sure you don't murder and try not to covet your neighbours oxen, George who does neither of these things can walk away, so it points out as much sin of humanity as it can find so that we may see our own sins and work on them. (please don't jump on the word sin,you know exactly what I mean) Oh and no Christian is called to Godly perfection, perfection is reserved for God itself. Sorry Buddy! I don't believe in the concept of sin. It is a totally manufactured bullshit notion developed by the purveyors of God stuff to get people to toe the line to their propaganda. In reality, there is a huge range of people with a sliding scale of what is moral in any society at any given time and an EVEN bigger huge range of people who continuously make poor decisions on a sliding scale of seriousness depending on the point of view. It is only the 'Godly' who see humans behaving as humans as 'sinners' Yes. I did jump on the word sin as it is crucial to any discussion between an atheist and a theist. There is no God and no perfection.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 20, 2018 11:18:19 GMT
... to knock on my door and give me a pamphlet. I have a glass front door, and I could see the guy pause half way up the porch steps when I stood up in my underwear, glowering at him. The guy wouldn't even meet my eyes when I asked, "Can I help you?" I just tell Jehovah's Witnesses that I can't speak to them as I am a witness for the prosecution.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 20, 2018 11:21:00 GMT
Oh and no Christian is called to Godly perfection, perfection is reserved for God itself. Would you expect a perfect god to always do perfect things?
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Mar 20, 2018 18:19:24 GMT
The point is that we are all flawed, and we all need to do work on ourselves. The fact that Christianity phrases this fact in a way you do not like is simply down to personal taste. Naturally the argument you will use will be that Christianity asks you to strive for perfection, to be completely sinless, firstly this is not true, but secondly as it is worded to apply to everyone it has to be harsher on the assessment of sin. If the bible simply said, oh you should make sure you don't murder and try not to covet your neighbours oxen, George who does neither of these things can walk away, so it points out as much sin of humanity as it can find so that we may see our own sins and work on them. (please don't jump on the word sin,you know exactly what I mean) Oh and no Christian is called to Godly perfection, perfection is reserved for God itself. Sorry Buddy! I don't believe in the concept of sin. It is a totally manufactured bullshit notion developed by the purveyors of God stuff to get people to toe the line to their propaganda. In reality, there is a huge range of people with a sliding scale of what is moral in any society at any given time and an EVEN bigger huge range of people who continuously make poor decisions on a sliding scale of seriousness depending on the point of view. It is only the 'Godly' who see humans behaving as humans as 'sinners' Yes. I did jump on the word sin as it is crucial to any discussion between an atheist and a theist. There is no God and no perfection.swing and a miss, you missed the point entirely.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Mar 20, 2018 18:26:41 GMT
Would you expect a perfect god to always do perfect things? not quite sure what the quote thing is doing here, apologies for that. as far as I am concerned perfect does not mean perfect in that way, it means the singularity that is perfectly everything. But to answer your question I think you are touching on the notion of if God is good, then why evil (if god is perfect then why imperfect). It's a hard one and there is no simple answer, I tend to go with two rationales, 1) We don't see everything so there may be a really good reason for evil, and 2) (and this is more how I feel) if life was perfect there would be no reason to strive, and God wants us to improve so he sends adversity our way.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 21, 2018 11:17:23 GMT
as far as I am concerned perfect does not mean perfect in that way, it means the singularity that is perfectly everything.
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 21, 2018 12:40:15 GMT
... to knock on my door and give me a pamphlet. I have a glass front door, and I could see the guy pause half way up the porch steps when I stood up in my underwear, glowering at him. The guy wouldn't even meet my eyes when I asked, "Can I help you?" I just tell Jehovah's Witnesses that I can't speak to them as I am a witness for the prosecution. Are you in Russia?
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 21, 2018 12:43:10 GMT
I just tell Jehovah's Witnesses that I can't speak to them as I am a witness for the prosecution. Are you in Russia? They have a bad rep in the UK too.
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 21, 2018 13:09:54 GMT
They have a bad rep in the UK too. They aren't banned though so why would they care about prosecution?
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 21, 2018 14:04:22 GMT
They have a bad rep in the UK too. They aren't banned though so why would they care about prosecution? You know my original comment was a joke... right?
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 21, 2018 14:07:00 GMT
They aren't banned though so why would they care about prosecution? You know my original comment was a joke... right? yeah, but I didn't get the context I guess. I thought the joke had to do with them being banned in some form or another.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 21, 2018 14:14:57 GMT
You know my original comment was a joke... right? yeah, but I didn't get the context I guess. I thought the joke had to do with them being banned in some form or another. And lose the contribution to society of such a lovely, caring organisation?
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/2119903.stm
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 21, 2018 16:00:36 GMT
This is kind of old siup and I don't want to falsely accuse you again of not getting in on the action last time.
From the article with no [apparent] date: So it may be a problem with the governments in question, but it seems like there is no issue, 25 years ago no less, with reporting it to the authorities and they, as an organization, didn't stop the kids from turning in their dad. In any event, I would think it's a good idea to have a list of sex offenders in their congregations.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 21, 2018 16:12:18 GMT
This is kind of old siup and I don't want to falsely accuse you again of not getting in on the action last time.
From the article with no [apparent] date: So it may be a problem with the governments in question, but it seems like there is no issue, 25 years ago no less, with reporting it to the authorities and they, as an organization, didn't stop the kids from turning in their dad. In any event, I would think it's a good idea to have a list of sex offenders in their congregations.
In 2016 a UK judge upheld a ruling against the Jehovah's Witnesses for failing to protect a victim of child sexual abuse, and the supreme court rejected an attempt by the Watch Tower Society to block a Charity Commission inquiry into how the organisation's charity handles allegations of abuse. This was the culmination of two years of legal proceedings in five different courts and tribunals. The commission's attorney said that "WTBTS has at every stage relentlessly challenged the legal basis and scope of the Charity Commission's inquiry"
Now I am not necessarily suggesting that the JW is any worse than the general population as far as child abuse is concerned. But along with the more glaring example of the Catholics one might have expected the devoutly religious, with one eye on God and 'objective morality' therefrom to be better and to set an example. After all, when all is said and done, what use is any church group otherwise?
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 21, 2018 16:14:42 GMT
This is kind of old siup and I don't want to falsely accuse you again of not getting in on the action last time.
From the article with no [apparent] date: So it may be a problem with the governments in question, but it seems like there is no issue, 25 years ago no less, with reporting it to the authorities and they, as an organization, didn't stop the kids from turning in their dad. In any event, I would think it's a good idea to have a list of sex offenders in their congregations. In 2016 a UK judge upheld a ruling against the Jehovah's Witnesses for failing to protect a victim of child sexual abuse, and the supreme court rejected an attempt by the Watch Tower Society to block a Charity Commission inquiry into how the organisation's charity handles allegations of abuse. This was the culmination of two years of legal proceedings in five different courts and tribunals. The commission's attorney said that "WTBTS has at every stage relentlessly challenged the legal basis and scope of the Charity Commission's inquiry" is there a link to that one since maybe t answered the question you couldn't?
|
|
|
Post by theoncomingstorm on Mar 21, 2018 16:17:50 GMT
Still the question stands, are you perfect, are there flaws in your behaviour that you find it hard to get rid of that impede you in life? TBH I don't understand... anything much.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 21, 2018 16:19:38 GMT
In 2016 a UK judge upheld a ruling against the Jehovah's Witnesses for failing to protect a victim of child sexual abuse, and the supreme court rejected an attempt by the Watch Tower Society to block a Charity Commission inquiry into how the organisation's charity handles allegations of abuse. This was the culmination of two years of legal proceedings in five different courts and tribunals. The commission's attorney said that "WTBTS has at every stage relentlessly challenged the legal basis and scope of the Charity Commission's inquiry" is there a link to that one since maybe t answered the question you couldn't? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses%27_handling_of_child_sex_abuse
see my edit for a view on why we might expect better from the religious.
|
|