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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 21, 2018 17:35:33 GMT
From your link: Nothing in that quote is even controversial. Again, what's the controversy. Are the supposed to find someone guilty solely on the basis of the accusation? Is that what they would do in the legal system? is there anything in there that reveals a discouragement from getting a kiddy diddler out of the congregation even without the 2 witness rule? I'll look up the links in the cover-up allegations later since they are directly quoted in the wiki.
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 21, 2018 17:40:40 GMT
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 22, 2018 12:25:40 GMT
From your link .... is there anything in there that reveals a discouragement from getting a kiddy diddler out of the congregation even without the 2 witness rule? I'll look up the links in the cover-up allegations later since they are directly quoted in the wiki. I think you miss the point again.
First off, as already said, my initial comment was just meant as a joke.
Second, the overall observation, once again, that we ought to expect better-than-average moral behaviour from the religious, most especially from the most particularly devout and committed, by way of setting of an example to the rest of us. Hence such recent stories as
www.theweek.co.uk/92180/jehovah-s-witnesses-face-possible-child-sex-abuse-inquiry
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42025255
thinkprogress.org/the-jehovahs-witnesses-massive-child-sex-abuse-scandal-292a7f7a9a86/
- just a tiny sample of plenty quickly found online, are not what one should see. Neither is the history of religious mendacity, cruelty, and internecine strife in general, well evidenced down the millennia. (I might add that I have nothing in particular against the Jo-Wits, except their tedious and annoying doorstep proselytizing practices). Unless you are now going to argue that the Jo-Wits are completely without fault, which will take a lot of doing, the point is made.
And, thirdly .. methinks you simply protest too much. The fact that you have spent so much time on your previous post, defending the cause at length, as it were, with a promise of yet more to come, ironically suggests to the casual reader more a concern that there might be issues to be addressed which need careful and selective rebuttal than anything else.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 22, 2018 16:13:46 GMT
From your link .... is there anything in there that reveals a discouragement from getting a kiddy diddler out of the congregation even without the 2 witness rule? I'll look up the links in the cover-up allegations later since they are directly quoted in the wiki. I think you miss the point again.
First off, as already said, my initial comment was just meant as a joke.
Second, the overall observation, once again, that we ought to expect better-than-average moral behaviour from the religious, most especially from the most particularly devout and committed, by way of setting of an example to the rest of us. Hence such recent stories as
www.theweek.co.uk/92180/jehovah-s-witnesses-face-possible-child-sex-abuse-inquiry
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42025255
thinkprogress.org/the-jehovahs-witnesses-massive-child-sex-abuse-scandal-292a7f7a9a86/
- just a tiny sample of plenty quickly found online, are not what one should see. Neither is the history of religious mendacity, cruelty, and internecine strife in general, well evidenced down the millennia. (I might add that I have nothing in particular against the Jo-Wits, except their tedious and annoying doorstep proselytizing practices). Unless you are now going to argue that the Jo-Wits are completely without fault, which will take a lot of doing, the point is made.
And, thirdly .. methinks you simply protest too much. The fact that you have spent so much time on your previous post, defending the cause at length, as it were, with a promise of yet more to come, ironically suggests to the casual reader more a concern that there might be issues to be addressed which need careful and selective rebuttal than anything else. _______________________________________________________________________________________ From something I posted previously: I would also add that there used to be a bumper sticker I saw frequently: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven". The arrogance of this mindset is mind-boggling. "We can behave badly, but if we say we are sorry, god will let us go to heaven rather than the hell we deserve to go to." In secular law, offenders who co-operate with the prosecution might get their sentence reduced, but serious offenders never just simply get a 'get out of jail free' card. That's not justice.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 22, 2018 19:13:32 GMT
Yes, God created evil, there can be no other argument, after all the premise is that God created everything. As for the reasons there can only be two possibilities (in broad strokes), God cannot stop evil, God does not want to stop evil. I personally believe in a benevolent God, but that still means that God may not want to stop evil (although I hate that word, suffering is a more applicable word), perhaps because is forces us to evolve, at the moment that is kind of my position. I don't believe thast a perfect god would make things perfect, if it did we would be little more than simoleans, if things are not perfect then we are forced to grow and adapt to make things better, and I personally believe that God wants us to grow.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 22, 2018 19:20:23 GMT
I think you miss the point again.
First off, as already said, my initial comment was just meant as a joke.
Second, the overall observation, once again, that we ought to expect better-than-average moral behaviour from the religious, most especially from the most particularly devout and committed, by way of setting of an example to the rest of us. Hence such recent stories as
www.theweek.co.uk/92180/jehovah-s-witnesses-face-possible-child-sex-abuse-inquiry
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42025255
thinkprogress.org/the-jehovahs-witnesses-massive-child-sex-abuse-scandal-292a7f7a9a86/
- just a tiny sample of plenty quickly found online, are not what one should see. Neither is the history of religious mendacity, cruelty, and internecine strife in general, well evidenced down the millennia. (I might add that I have nothing in particular against the Jo-Wits, except their tedious and annoying doorstep proselytizing practices). Unless you are now going to argue that the Jo-Wits are completely without fault, which will take a lot of doing, the point is made.
And, thirdly .. methinks you simply protest too much. The fact that you have spent so much time on your previous post, defending the cause at length, as it were, with a promise of yet more to come, ironically suggests to the casual reader more a concern that there might be issues to be addressed which need careful and selective rebuttal than anything else. _______________________________________________________________________________________ From something I posted previously: I would also add that there used to be a bumper sticker I saw frequently: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven". The arrogance of this mindset is mind-boggling. "We can behave badly, but if we say we are sorry, god will let us go to heaven rather than the hell we deserve to go to." In secular law, offenders who co-operate with the prosecution might get their sentence reduced, but serious offenders never just simply get a 'get out of jail free' card. That's not justice. ARRRGGHHHHH!!! Forgiveness is not our action, it is the forgiveness of the agent harmed. What you are talking about is repentance, and repentance is not just saying you are sorry, it is a journey to understand why you were wrong and grow out of it. God offers extreme forgiveness, yes a serial killer who came to terms with what he did and truly repented would be saved, no you are right that is no comfort to the victims, although true repentance often has a measure of reconciliation with the victim. Ironically the living victims of a serial killer need to forgive. Forgiveness in the bible is to let go of the anger that will burn them up inside and allows them to begin to heal. Just so you know if someone hurt my daughter I believe I would have a very hard time forgiving them, even though it is in my best interests, just wanted to point that out as it could be construed that I am painting forgiveness as easy.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 22, 2018 19:54:46 GMT
_______________________________________________________________________________________ From something I posted previously: I would also add that there used to be a bumper sticker I saw frequently: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven". The arrogance of this mindset is mind-boggling. "We can behave badly, but if we say we are sorry, god will let us go to heaven rather than the hell we deserve to go to." In secular law, offenders who co-operate with the prosecution might get their sentence reduced, but serious offenders never just simply get a 'get out of jail free' card. That's not justice. ARRRGGHHHHH!!! Forgiveness is not our action, it is the forgiveness of the agent harmed. What you are talking about is repentance, and repentance is not just saying you are sorry, it is a journey to understand why you were wrong and grow out of it. God offers extreme forgiveness, yes a serial killer who came to terms with what he did and truly repented would be saved, no you are right that is no comfort to the victims, although true repentance often has a measure of reconciliation with the victim. Ironically the living victims of a serial killer need to forgive. Forgiveness in the bible is to let go of the anger that will burn them up inside and allows them to begin to heal. Just so you know if someone hurt my daughter I believe I would have a very hard time forgiving them, even though it is in my best interests, just wanted to point that out as it could be construed that I am painting forgiveness as easy. Hmmmm, how to answer this so I make my point but not try to change your mind... I was a daughter once, someone harmed me in a profound way. Had my Dad known about it, as truly Christian as he was, I still think he would have injured the perpetrator and would never have been able to forgive what that person did. I have never forgiven the person who harmed me. Forgiveness is not easy. I am a stronger person, and more sensitive to victimization because I have never forgiven the person who harmed me. IF I considered forgiving them, to me it would be re-victimizing myself. But that's just me; I don't know how other victims feel.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 22, 2018 20:29:03 GMT
ARRRGGHHHHH!!! Forgiveness is not our action, it is the forgiveness of the agent harmed. What you are talking about is repentance, and repentance is not just saying you are sorry, it is a journey to understand why you were wrong and grow out of it. God offers extreme forgiveness, yes a serial killer who came to terms with what he did and truly repented would be saved, no you are right that is no comfort to the victims, although true repentance often has a measure of reconciliation with the victim. Ironically the living victims of a serial killer need to forgive. Forgiveness in the bible is to let go of the anger that will burn them up inside and allows them to begin to heal. Just so you know if someone hurt my daughter I believe I would have a very hard time forgiving them, even though it is in my best interests, just wanted to point that out as it could be construed that I am painting forgiveness as easy. Hmmmm, how to answer this so I make my point but not try to change your mind... I was a daughter once, someone harmed me in a profound way. Had my Dad known about it, as truly Christian as he was, I still think he would have injured the perpetrator and would never have been able to forgive what that person did. I have never forgiven the person who harmed me. Forgiveness is not easy. I am a stronger person, and more sensitive to victimization because I have never forgiven the person who harmed me. IF I considered forgiving them, to me it would be re-victimizing myself. But that's just me; I don't know how other victims feel. Forgiven and Forgotten are different things. Are you hanging onto hate for the perpetrator of this crime? Are you letting your anger towards them continue? If you are then you are only hurting yourself, you are still being victim of the act. If you let go of the anger and forgive them, you can still be sensitive to the victimisation, and you can still learn from the experience, just you are not being still hurt by your feelings toward the crime. Please don't get me wrong if someone hurt my little girl I would fuck them up. I may come to forgive them eventually, but I think it would be a very hard road, but understand aside from the initial fucking up, the perpetrator would not be affected by the emotions I felt regarding them, I would simply be hurting myself. I have no doubts it would be very hard though.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 22, 2018 20:54:40 GMT
Hmmmm, how to answer this so I make my point but not try to change your mind... I was a daughter once, someone harmed me in a profound way. Had my Dad known about it, as truly Christian as he was, I still think he would have injured the perpetrator and would never have been able to forgive what that person did. I have never forgiven the person who harmed me. Forgiveness is not easy. I am a stronger person, and more sensitive to victimization because I have never forgiven the person who harmed me. IF I considered forgiving them, to me it would be re-victimizing myself. But that's just me; I don't know how other victims feel. Forgiven and Forgotten are different things. Are you hanging onto hate for the perpetrator of this crime? Are you letting your anger towards them continue? If you are then you are only hurting yourself, you are still being victim of the act. If you let go of the anger and forgive them, you can still be sensitive to the victimisation, and you can still learn from the experience, just you are not being still hurt by your feelings toward the crime. Please don't get me wrong if someone hurt my little girl I would fuck them up. I may come to forgive them eventually, but I think it would be a very hard road, but understand aside from the initial fucking up, the perpetrator would not be affected by the emotions I felt regarding them, I would simply be hurting myself. I have no doubts it would be very hard though. "IF I considered forgiving them, to me it would be re-victimizing myself." I know this is hard to understand without more backstory. Rather than tell my story, I will tell someone else's. I don't know if you, in NZ, have access to the tv program "Criminal Minds". It is about a unit of the FBI, the Behavioral Analysis Unit, that hunts down serial killers, rapists, pedophiles and more. One member of the group is the character of Derek Morgan, who, as a child, lost his father (a cop) and several years later was 'taken under the wing of' a community center coach. While helping Derek get an athletic scholarship so he could go to college, the coach also molested the young Derek over a period of time. Derek kept his mouth shut, got out of the neighborhood, into college and then the FBI. Years later, Derek is interacting with a priest, trying to find a killer that is part of the congregation, and Derek can't help being antagonistic. The priest asks, "What happened to you? Only someone raised in religion could be this antagonistic to a priest he barely knows." Derek answers, "When I was a kid, something bad was happening to me, and I prayed. I went to church every day and I prayed that it would stop. You know what God did? Nuthin." The priest responded, "He never gives us more than we can handle." Derek snapped, "Your god expects way too much of 13 year old boys." The character of Derek never forgave what was done to him, and he chose the career path that would ensure that he could 'take down' bad people who harmed children. There is something to be said for righteous indignation. It empowered this character to be a force for good, against evil.
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Post by thefleetsin on Mar 22, 2018 20:57:18 GMT
hidden?
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Post by gadreel on Mar 22, 2018 20:59:39 GMT
Forgiven and Forgotten are different things. Are you hanging onto hate for the perpetrator of this crime? Are you letting your anger towards them continue? If you are then you are only hurting yourself, you are still being victim of the act. If you let go of the anger and forgive them, you can still be sensitive to the victimisation, and you can still learn from the experience, just you are not being still hurt by your feelings toward the crime. Please don't get me wrong if someone hurt my little girl I would fuck them up. I may come to forgive them eventually, but I think it would be a very hard road, but understand aside from the initial fucking up, the perpetrator would not be affected by the emotions I felt regarding them, I would simply be hurting myself. I have no doubts it would be very hard though. "IF I considered forgiving them, to me it would be re-victimizing myself." I know this is hard to understand without more backstory. Rather than tell my story, I will tell someone else's. I don't know if you, in NZ, have access to the tv program "Criminal Minds". It is about a unit of the FBI, the Behavioral Analysis Unit, that hunts down serial killers, rapists, pedophiles and more. One member of the group is the character of Derek Morgan, who, as a child, lost his father (a cop) and several years later was 'taken under the wing of' a community center coach. While helping Derek get an athletic scholarship so he could go to college, the coach also molested the young Derek over a period of time. Derek kept his mouth shut, got out of the neighborhood, into college and then the FBI. Years later, Derek is interacting with a priest, trying to find a killer that is part of the congregation, and Derek can't help being antagonistic. The priest asks, "What happened to you? Only someone raised in religion could be this antagonistic to a priest he barely knows." Derek answers, "When I was a kid, something bad was happening to me, and I prayed. I went to church every day and I prayed that it would stop. You know what God did? Nuthin." The priest responded, "He never gives us more than we can handle." Derek snapped, "Your god expects way too much of 13 year old boys." The character of Derek never forgave what was done to him, and he chose the career path that would ensure that he could 'take down' bad people who harmed children. There is something to be said for righteous indignation. It empowered this character to be a force for good, against evil. If the character Derek never forgave his perpetrator, then he is hanging onto anger that is burning him up inside. It is only in movies and TV that anger internalised (which it is because he is not in contact with the perpetrator) allows a character to motivate themselves to be a better person, in the real world it leads to psychological issues.
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Post by Cody™ on Mar 22, 2018 21:06:01 GMT
Yes, God created evil, there can be no other argument, after all the premise is that God created everything. As for the reasons there can only be two possibilities (in broad strokes), God cannot stop evil, God does not want to stop evil. I personally believe in a benevolent God, but that still means that God may not want to stop evil (although I hate that word, suffering is a more applicable word), perhaps because is forces us to evolve, at the moment that is kind of my position. I don't believe thast a perfect god would make things perfect, if it did we would be little more than simoleans, if things are not perfect then we are forced to grow and adapt to make things better, and I personally believe that God wants us to grow. Evil is merely the absence of good. It does not exist in it's own right.
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 22, 2018 21:18:24 GMT
tpfkar Evil is merely the absence of good. It does not exist in it's own right. Why are you guys always so freely blasphemin'? Does a banana have a brain and organs too? Yet it shares roughly the same % of DNA to us as a Fruit Fly. The evidence discredits itself.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 22, 2018 21:32:18 GMT
"IF I considered forgiving them, to me it would be re-victimizing myself." I know this is hard to understand without more backstory. Rather than tell my story, I will tell someone else's. I don't know if you, in NZ, have access to the tv program "Criminal Minds". It is about a unit of the FBI, the Behavioral Analysis Unit, that hunts down serial killers, rapists, pedophiles and more. One member of the group is the character of Derek Morgan, who, as a child, lost his father (a cop) and several years later was 'taken under the wing of' a community center coach. While helping Derek get an athletic scholarship so he could go to college, the coach also molested the young Derek over a period of time. Derek kept his mouth shut, got out of the neighborhood, into college and then the FBI. Years later, Derek is interacting with a priest, trying to find a killer that is part of the congregation, and Derek can't help being antagonistic. The priest asks, "What happened to you? Only someone raised in religion could be this antagonistic to a priest he barely knows." Derek answers, "When I was a kid, something bad was happening to me, and I prayed. I went to church every day and I prayed that it would stop. You know what God did? Nuthin." The priest responded, "He never gives us more than we can handle." Derek snapped, "Your god expects way too much of 13 year old boys." The character of Derek never forgave what was done to him, and he chose the career path that would ensure that he could 'take down' bad people who harmed children. There is something to be said for righteous indignation. It empowered this character to be a force for good, against evil. If the character Derek never forgave his perpetrator, then he is hanging onto anger that is burning him up inside. It is only in movies and TV that anger internalised (which it is because he is not in contact with the perpetrator) allows a character to motivate themselves to be a better person, in the real world it leads to psychological issues. The actor (Shemar Moore) that played that character once said in an interview that he had gotten so many people who thanked him for playing that difficult role, that they had been victimized as well, and they felt relief that someone else understood how it felt and had told a story that needed telling. Many people who have been molested by priests and are, by definition, Christian, cannot and will not forgive the priest. Their lives have been forever changed, they have scars on their soul, and nothing can make their life as it was before, not even forgiveness. I tried forgiveness. It gave me psychological problems. Only when I got ANGRY did I start to heal and lead as normal a life as I can. People cannot see my scars. My late husband and my therapist are the only people I ever told. I look like any other normal person my age. My aim in life is to alleviate suffering, here, in the real world. Children, animals, innocents... should never be harmed. I do my best to prevent that and help ones who have already suffered.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 22, 2018 22:50:57 GMT
Yes, God created evil, there can be no other argument, after all the premise is that God created everything. As for the reasons there can only be two possibilities (in broad strokes), God cannot stop evil, God does not want to stop evil. I personally believe in a benevolent God, but that still means that God may not want to stop evil (although I hate that word, suffering is a more applicable word), perhaps because is forces us to evolve, at the moment that is kind of my position. I don't believe thast a perfect god would make things perfect, if it did we would be little more than simoleans, if things are not perfect then we are forced to grow and adapt to make things better, and I personally believe that God wants us to grow. Evil is merely the absence of good. It does not exist in it's own right. Thought you were going to stop wasting your time on me you sniveling little stain on humanity?
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Post by gadreel on Mar 22, 2018 22:54:02 GMT
If the character Derek never forgave his perpetrator, then he is hanging onto anger that is burning him up inside. It is only in movies and TV that anger internalised (which it is because he is not in contact with the perpetrator) allows a character to motivate themselves to be a better person, in the real world it leads to psychological issues. The actor (Shemar Moore) that played that character once said in an interview that he had gotten so many people who thanked him for playing that difficult role, that they had been victimized as well, and they felt relief that someone else understood how it felt and had told a story that needed telling. Many people who have been molested by priests and are, by definition, Christian, cannot and will not forgive the priest. Their lives have been forever changed, they have scars on their soul, and nothing can make their life as it was before, not even forgiveness. I tried forgiveness. It gave me psychological problems. Only when I got ANGRY did I start to heal and lead as normal a life as I can. People cannot see my scars. My late husband and my therapist are the only people I ever told. I look like any other normal person my age. My aim in life is to alleviate suffering, here, in the real world. Children, animals, innocents... should never be harmed. I do my best to prevent that and help ones who have already suffered. Forgiveness is defined as letting go of the negative emotion associated with what a perpetrator did to you. It has nothing to do with not wanting people to be harmed or making your life as it was before, it is about letting go of negative emotion to stop hurting yourself. Are you still angry?
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 22, 2018 23:31:48 GMT
The actor (Shemar Moore) that played that character once said in an interview that he had gotten so many people who thanked him for playing that difficult role, that they had been victimized as well, and they felt relief that someone else understood how it felt and had told a story that needed telling. Many people who have been molested by priests and are, by definition, Christian, cannot and will not forgive the priest. Their lives have been forever changed, they have scars on their soul, and nothing can make their life as it was before, not even forgiveness. I tried forgiveness. It gave me psychological problems. Only when I got ANGRY did I start to heal and lead as normal a life as I can. People cannot see my scars. My late husband and my therapist are the only people I ever told. I look like any other normal person my age. My aim in life is to alleviate suffering, here, in the real world. Children, animals, innocents... should never be harmed. I do my best to prevent that and help ones who have already suffered. Forgiveness is defined as letting go of the negative emotion associated with what a perpetrator did to you. It has nothing to do with not wanting people to be harmed or making your life as it was before, it is about letting go of negative emotion to stop hurting yourself. Are you still angry? You damn betcha, I'm still angry. Until that person dies of natural causes, I will be angry. Once that person is gone from my life, I will be able to live my genuine life. Christianity's solution for anger is very different from modern psychology's solution for anger. It is a huge part of why I am an atheist. And why I look to science to improve the human condition. Just a reminder, I was raised as a fundamentalist Southern Baptist, so everything you are telling me has been heard, and rejected, many times over. To forgive that person would be harming myself. This is my personal experience; unless you have lived it, you cannot know the effect this has had on me. Trust me, I am all about not harming myself. I'm the only person in this world that can protect myself from further harm. The childhood message of selflessness in Christianity knocked out my sense of self-preservation. Thankfully, psychology convinced me to protect myself. We are going to have to agree to disagree, here. I agree to disagree, and you...?
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Post by gadreel on Mar 23, 2018 1:13:14 GMT
Forgiveness is defined as letting go of the negative emotion associated with what a perpetrator did to you. It has nothing to do with not wanting people to be harmed or making your life as it was before, it is about letting go of negative emotion to stop hurting yourself. Are you still angry? You damn betcha, I'm still angry. Until that person dies of natural causes, I will be angry. Once that person is gone from my life, I will be able to live my genuine life. Christianity's solution for anger is very different from modern psychology's solution for anger. It is a huge part of why I am an atheist. And why I look to science to improve the human condition. Just a reminder, I was raised as a fundamentalist Southern Baptist, so everything you are telling me has been heard, and rejected, many times over. To forgive that person would be harming myself. This is my personal experience; unless you have lived it, you cannot know the effect this has had on me. Trust me, I am all about not harming myself. I'm the only person in this world that can protect myself from further harm. The childhood message of selflessness in Christianity knocked out my sense of self-preservation. Thankfully, psychology convinced me to protect myself. We are going to have to agree to disagree, here. I agree to disagree, and you...? to each thier own. We agree to disagree.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 23, 2018 1:41:46 GMT
tpfkar Evil is merely the absence of good. It does not exist in it's own right. Why are you guys always so freely blasphemin'? Does a banana have a brain and organs too? Yet it shares roughly the same % of DNA to us as a Fruit Fly. The evidence discredits itself.Well Cody is an ignorant heretic.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 1:49:21 GMT
Okay, my weird JW story...
I have a brother called... well, let's say he's called Bob. Bob comes to hang out with me every now and again on the weekends, used to do so a lot more before he got himself all married up.
So one day Bob and I are lounging in the lounge (appropriate!) watching TV when the doorbell rings. And two JWs are outside. And they tell me that a couple of days ago in the nearby town centre, somebody named Bob told one of their people that he was feeling suicidal and needed spiritual help.
So I actually got to call in to my brother "Hey, Bob! There's a guy out here says you want to kill yourself, is that so?" I've rarely seen him look as confused as he did when he came out to find what the hell was going on.
All I can guess is that somebody gave them a fake name and address as a joke... and just happened to give them my address and my brother's name by pure coincidence. Seems pretty unlikely, but then it was a rental property so I guess there would be a number of ex-tenants around who knew the address.
I'd be tempted to think that the JWs just flat out lied, but that doesn't sound like them, and anyway how would they know my brother's name?
Always stuck with me as one of the little oddities that happen to people now and again.
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