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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 27, 2018 19:00:05 GMT
He didn't create Satan which is the point. The answer is always going to be the same. People, spirit or human, are allowed to make decisions that are contrary to their best interests. Satan is simply a title to describe what someone is or has become and most people are resisters of God's will. If that happens among humans then it's entirely possible that the ones we mirror have the free will to do as they wish too. Satan can be killed, but there's no reason to think or even know what the death penalty would mean for a spirit creature or angel. Scripture seems to indicate that he will be killed, but revelation mentioned eternal torment. However, in the same chapter of revelation, it also appears to mention the same lake as one of death. So no matter what, Satan is as good as dead with no shot of coming back.And until that happens, at the end of eternity, which is essentially never, anyone who does anything bad will be tortured by him?
And you lot worship the petty creature that created this situation?
Definitely not for me.
No. No one is tortured For all we know Satan is still in heaven like he was in most of the Bible. How did God create the situation? It probably is for the best that it's not for you. Ain't free will grand!  |
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 27, 2018 23:31:31 GMT
tpfkar He didn't create Satan which is the point. The answer is always going to be the same. People, spirit or human, are allowed to make decisions that are contrary to their best interests. Satan is simply a title to describe what someone is or has become and most people are resisters of God's will. If that happens among humans then it's entirely possible that the ones we mirror have the free will to do as they wish too. Satan can be killed, but there's no reason to think or even know what the death penalty would mean for a spirit creature or angel. Scripture seems to indicate that he will be killed, but revelation mentioned eternal torment. However, in the same chapter of revelation, it also appears to mention the same lake as one of death. So no matter what, Satan is as good as dead with no shot of coming back. Wait, is Satan "simply a title to describe what someone is or has become", or is he a "spirit creature or angel". Or both. Or neither. Or apologibabble.
The Christian Life |
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Post by goz on Mar 27, 2018 23:47:28 GMT
Never kill off the antagonist before the third act. ...and/or the fat lady sings! |
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Post by goz on Mar 28, 2018 0:08:06 GMT
What?
...and kill off the Christian apology for bad behaviour?
NOT bloody likely.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 28, 2018 10:19:42 GMT
How did God create the situation? We only need to know it happened, the explanation of how can be left to the special pleaders, as your purported deity created everything. We know that for sure since, well, we are explicitly told so, viz: " For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him." [Col 1:16] I hope that helps. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 28, 2018 10:48:32 GMT
We only need to know it happened, the explanation of how can be left to the special pleaders, as your purported deity created everything. We know that for sure since, well, we are explicitly told so, viz: " For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him." [Col 1:16] I hope that helps. It's certainly true free could be considered a creation... |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 28, 2018 10:52:01 GMT
It's certainly true free could be considered a creation... Just as those 'all things' created by your purported deity will necessarily include 'situations', which was my intended point.
As for torture and hell :
Revelation 20:10 "And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
More pitchforks and fun with eternal damnation is alleged with the devil in the detail from such Xian sites as
jesus-is-savior.com/Hells_Truth/forever.htm
There are of course differing views, notably from apologists with whom such notions fit uneasily in with a caring and loving deity. But that's the fun of arguing about likely myths. It is similar to debating whether Santa punishes naughty girls and boys with no presents or not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 11:20:27 GMT
Because humans have not written him to do that.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 28, 2018 11:37:09 GMT
It is similar to debating whether Santa punishes naughty girls and boys with no presents or not.
Yeah... And as about as much fun as arguing with an idiot who constantly is going off because Santa is "more evil than Evil" because he doesn't give naughty children presents.  And, sure, we could go into the whole spiel about how the Greek word for "torment" doesn't really translate as "torture".... or how "the beast" and "the false prophet" are allegorical characters that can't really feel anything... or how "death" and "Hell" are also thrown into the "lake of fire".. and they don't feel sht, either... But.... You'd never listen because Santa never gave naughty kids presents.  |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 28, 2018 11:57:52 GMT
It is similar to debating whether Santa punishes naughty girls and boys with no presents or not.
Yeah... And as about as much fun as arguing with an idiot who constantly is going off because Santa is "more evil than Evil" because he doesn't give naughty children presents. Interestingly, since the Christian God is necessarily to be taken as the ultimate measure of all things then, arguably, it most be the most evil, since evil can be included as part of all things. If it is not, and I can imagine therefore a deity which is more evil, then here at least Jehovah is not the greatest god conceivable. The only arguments against this would be that God is limited, even if only by His nature (i.e. He must be good), or less promisingly, that evil is not, in fact 'great'. But then I was assured not long ago by a Christian on this board that God's admitted, deliberate creation of natural evil, at least, was a 'fantastic thing' in a way that suggested awe and admiration for all His work. And yet he does, and I can evidence the fact. |
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Post by redhorizon on Mar 28, 2018 12:01:25 GMT
Didn't God kill more people in the Bible than Satan? Who are we really better off without? Maybe both.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 28, 2018 12:20:03 GMT
Didn't God kill more people in the Bible than Satan? Who are we really better off without? Maybe both. As long as you're OK with what the Devil offers, then it is perfectly fine to choose the Devil as your buddy. |
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Post by Vegas on Mar 28, 2018 12:20:31 GMT
God is necessarily to be taken as the ultimate measure of all things then, arguably, it most be the most evil, since evil can be included as part of all things. Okay... Have fun with that conclusion.   |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 28, 2018 12:22:02 GMT
It's certainly true free could be considered a creation... Just as those 'all things' created by your purported deity will necessarily include 'situations', which was my intended point.
As for torture and hell :
Revelation 20:10 "And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
More pitchforks and fun with eternal damnation is alleged with the devil in the detail from such Xian sites as
jesus-is-savior.com/Hells_Truth/forever.htm
There are of course differing views, notably from apologists with whom such notions fit uneasily in with a caring and loving deity. But that's the fun of arguing about likely myths. It is similar to debating whether Santa punishes naughty girls and boys with no presents or not.
All of God summed up in one verse. No wonder you don't need to read the rest of the Bible! |
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Post by Vegas on Mar 28, 2018 12:25:41 GMT
Didn't God kill more people in the Bible than Satan? Who are we really better off without? Maybe both. And John McLane killed more people than the Germans in Die Hard... Who were the people in the Nakatomi building better off without?  |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 28, 2018 12:42:03 GMT
God is necessarily to be taken as the ultimate measure of all things then, arguably, it most be the most evil, since evil can be included as part of all things. Okay... Have fun with that conclusion. Thank you, I will:
"Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God". - Aquinas, from 'The Fourth Way'. So that if God is the source of all gradation, then he must be maximally evil (for example) too. Here's the fun part: as I suggested already, an all-good God cannot be maximally evil – and (from this argument) therefore must not exist. Or to put it another way, if evil is a privation, then the maximal of privation must be ... nothing.
** edit Here's a further interesting thought: God admits in the Bible that He at least deliberately created natural evil, or 'misfortune'. One would therefore assume that, as per the previous definition the best and greatest maker of natural evil would be Him. In which case how should one see an entity which is necessarily the greatest maker of evil?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 28, 2018 12:46:03 GMT
Just as those 'all things' created by your purported deity will necessarily include 'situations', which was my intended point.
As for torture and hell :
Revelation 20:10 "And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
More pitchforks and fun with eternal damnation is alleged with the devil in the detail from such Xian sites as
jesus-is-savior.com/Hells_Truth/forever.htm
There are of course differing views, notably from apologists with whom such notions fit uneasily in with a caring and loving deity. But that's the fun of arguing about likely myths. It is similar to debating whether Santa punishes naughty girls and boys with no presents or not.
All of God summed up in one verse. No wonder you don't need to read the rest of the Bible!
On the contrary; I have and would recommend it, especially to those who might see it inerrant, or without contradiction, cruelty or God-created misfortune. I see you do not contest my points.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 28, 2018 12:48:45 GMT
All of God summed up in one verse. No wonder you don't need to read the rest of the Bible!
On the contrary; I would recommend it, especially to those who might see it inerrant, or without contradiction, cruelty or God-created misfortune. I see you do not contest my points.
Your verse isn't a contradiction as much as it is you stretching it beyond it's context, which is perfectly legal for you to do. After all, by your argument, God made you say it! |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 28, 2018 13:02:04 GMT
Your verse isn't a contradiction as much as it is you stretching it beyond it's context, which is perfectly legal for you to do. So "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" does not mean being some will be tormented day and night forever and ever? I see. Or is it that the Bible says something but it is not really true? If not, and we can put it down to another biblical contradiction, there's still plenty more arguments and examples left for such a view, for instance by other Christians in the provided link. Its probably best that you fight it out with them; after all its your religion. Pull and pinch it between you any way you want. Just don't expect the rest of us to see it making sense both ways at the same time. What's my argument? It is certainly not that there is a god to contend with (though there might be); just the variations on an idea of one which people suppose. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 28, 2018 13:06:40 GMT
Didn't God kill more people in the Bible than Satan? Who are we really better off without? Maybe both. As long as you're OK with what the Devil offers, then it is perfectly fine to choose the Devil as your buddy. That's too long for a bumper sticker, sorry. |
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