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Post by Vegas on Mar 28, 2018 13:40:30 GMT
What's my argument? It is certainly not that there is a god to contend with (though there might be); just the variations on an idea of one which people suppose. This is why talking to you about anything is ultimately futile... You will always miss the point. You mean.. The book in The Bible that is mostly allegorical visions... might mean something more allegorical than literal???... SAY IT ISN'T SO!! And yet again... The Hebrew word for "torment" being used isn't the same thing as the word that best describes "torture".This is another reason why discussions with you are ultimately futile... You know that there are multiple ways that people view this... some more "correct" than others... but, you will always choose the interpretation that best suits your bias.. and shrug off those that don't as non-existent. - "Sure.. Your interpretation is actually grammatically more accurate and makes better sense in the over-all picture... but, other morons choose to see it as God being evil... and.. I STAND WITH THOSE MORONS!!!... But, only to use their moronacy as a basis for my bias... and to use against you in arguments even if you don't believe what those morons say!!"
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Post by Isapop on Mar 28, 2018 13:45:09 GMT
Didn't God kill more people in the Bible than Satan? Who are we really better off without? Maybe both. And John McLane killed more people than the Germans in Die Hard... Who were the people in the Nakatomi building better off without? Since you offer McLane here as God and Hans Gruber and his bunch as Satan and his demons, your analogy plays right into the hands of the OP. McLane killed them, which is exactly what the OP thinks God ought to have done with Satan.
(Not the first time your attempt at a Die Hard analogy backfired. Better find another movie.)
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Post by Vegas on Mar 28, 2018 13:48:43 GMT
And John McLane killed more people than the Germans in Die Hard... Who were the people in the Nakatomi building better off without? Since you offer McLane here as God and Hans Gruber and his bunch as Satan and his demons, your analogy plays right into the hands of the OP. McLane killed them, which is exactly what the OP thinks God ought to have done with Satan.
(Not the first time your attempt at a Die Hard analogy backfired. Better find another movie.)
I know I've used it before.... But, I will point out: According to The Bible.... The movie ain't over, yet... Edit: I just find the "Death count = evil" as an argument rather silly... as if America killing more Nazis makes America more evil... And, even dumber as a religious argument, as according to The Bible.... EVERYBODY DIES because of Satan.
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 28, 2018 13:54:24 GMT
tpfkar All of God summed up in one verse. No wonder you don't need to read the rest of the Bible! So that bit of Bible is bullsh!t? The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 28, 2018 14:02:58 GMT
You can always feel that cold breeze of stupidity blow across a thread....
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 28, 2018 14:04:39 GMT
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 28, 2018 14:16:56 GMT
tpfkar Didn't God kill more people in the Bible than Satan? Who are we really better off without? Maybe both. And John McLane killed more people than the Germans in Die Hard... Who were the people in the Nakatomi building better off without? Yeah, and the Allies killed more people than the Germans in the Battle of the Falaise Pocket. Who were the people in France better off without? words to live by
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Post by Isapop on Mar 28, 2018 14:17:50 GMT
FilmFlaneur
It should be. People could use it as the new formal title when addressing our current president ("Your advisors await you, Your Moronacy").
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 28, 2018 14:21:42 GMT
tpfkar You can always feel that cold breeze of stupidity blow across a thread.... It's the yeast smell from underneath your teary moobicles. Ummmmmm... Mr. Fluffykins.... I know I promised not to do that no-no thing to you anymore... but, I was wondering since it's just you and me.. and It's New Year's Eve.....
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Post by Vegas on Mar 28, 2018 14:26:43 GMT
I know... Sometimes it's fun to make up words. I know it's not a direct quote... I'm talking to the person in question... I assume that he knows what he says... I'm not telling you what to believe or not believe.... Just that in The Bible fire is used to describe what it does in the real word: Destruction. Generally, The Bible isn't really big on there being any life after death... It has a more of an "eventual resurrection" vibe to it... Fire is used to describe that which won't be resurrected, i.e., destroyed. And yes, the word "torment" is used in Revelation... but, as pointed out, it's not a word that really means "torture"..
He was joking that if what you say is true, that God is the creator/controller of all that is evil... than you really wouldn't have the free will to say what you say.. God would be making you say it. It seemed kinda obvious.
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 28, 2018 14:28:26 GMT
tpfkar What's my argument? It is certainly not that there is a god to contend with (though there might be); just the variations on an idea of one which people suppose. This is why talking to you about anything is ultimately futile... You will always miss the point. You mean.. The book in The Bible that is mostly allegorical visions... might mean something more allegorical than literal???... SAY IT ISN'T SO!! And yet again... The Hebrew word for "torment" being used isn't the same thing as the word that best describes "torture".This is another reason why discussions with you are ultimately futile... You know that there are multiple ways that people view this... some more "correct" than others... but, you will always choose the interpretation that best suits your bias.. and shrug off those that don't as non-existent. - "Sure.. Your interpretation is actually grammatically more accurate and makes better sense in the over-all picture... but, other morons choose to see it as God being evil... and.. I STAND WITH THOSE MORONS!!!... But, only to use their moronacy as a basis for my bias... and to use against you in arguments even if you don't believe what those morons say!!" Too funny about "point missing". And get down with your quibble-shuffle torment vs. torture apologist self! And your "interpretations" are generally the very opposite of "grammatically more accurate and makes better sense". words to live by
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 28, 2018 14:57:01 GMT
Sometimes it's fun to make up words. But we are not talking about the nature of fire. We are discussing where, allegory or not, scripture talks of hell forever. So once again: when the verse says "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever", are you saying it was not torment for ever and ever that was meant? Also, in this context what are we to make of such a verse as Matt:46 that “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” ? How can there be 'eternal' punishment (presumably taken as being in hell) when it is not really forever? (Or does this sound 'just an allegory' in Christ's view, come to that?) LOL Really? Have you mentioned this to people who 'know' there is a heaven and, along with Cody, Cool and their ilk, have presumably one eye already on their place in the heavenly choir? An argument which is really reaching, since the meanings are very similar, while torment can equal torture Viz: "Torment NOUN 1.severe physical or mental suffering. synonyms: agony · suffering · torture · pain · anguish · misery · distress · affliction " [Oxford Dictionaries] I can't see any obvious connection between an evil creator and the existence, or not, of free will. For instance an evil deity might actually want to have free will made such an influence in the human, since this would mean the inevitability of more evil, would it not? This is the obverse of asking why a perfectly good god would not make a perfect and good creature in the first place, rather than waiting to punish a imperfect creature for that which will inevitably happen.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 28, 2018 15:16:33 GMT
An argument which is really reaching, since the meanings are very similar, while torment can equal torture Viz:
"Torment NOUN 1.severe physical or mental suffering. synonyms: agony · suffering · torture · pain · anguish · misery · distress · affliction " [Oxford Dictionaries] Yes.. but, THE GREEK WORD BEING USED:basanos: a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), hence examination by torture, torture Original Word: βάσανος, ου, ἡ Phonetic Spelling: (bas'-an-os) Short Definition: torture, tormentDefinition: torture, torment, examination by torture.HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō). [In the papyri, basanos also means, "touchstone," "test" (so P Oxy I. 58.25, ad 288). 931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).] HAS MORE OF A CONOTATION OF TORMENTING METAL TO SET A STANDARD/SET A VALUE.... NOT TORTURING PEOPLE.Yes... Congratulations.... You realize that other people who have misconceptions exist. Way to go!! Here's your own example: Well... What's the punishment?..... The reward is life... Why isn't the opposite death in your view?... It's not because you don't want it to be. That verse makes no mention of torture or torment... Yet, you assume that it does. "The wages sin pays is death" I think that The Bible is implying that their destruction will be like what the word Greek word torment implies: Their deaths will serve as a standard (a touchstone) for all eternity... That, if any other rebellion should ever arise after any of this, God can - and will - destroy any said rebellions instantly (getting back to the OP) because the all of the issues were answered by God allowing them to exist to that point will have proved His point. The standard has been set. They serve as that touchstone for all eternity.
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 28, 2018 15:34:22 GMT
tpfkar Edit: I just find the "Death count = evil" as an argument rather silly... as if America killing more Nazis makes America more evil... Right, it's that ingrained JWpologia / head-injury thinking level that pretends infants, children or just people who balk at crass immorality are like Nazis. words to live by
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 19:01:40 GMT
Can't kill that which doesn't exist
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Post by Isapop on Mar 28, 2018 19:44:06 GMT
Can't kill that which doesn't exist Play the game, Eddy.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 28, 2018 21:15:21 GMT
As long as you're OK with what the Devil offers, then it is perfectly fine to choose the Devil as your buddy. That's too long for a bumper sticker, sorry. Only hippies & Trump supporters have bumper stickers
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Post by Marv on Mar 28, 2018 22:19:46 GMT
tpfkar Hate to spoil the big surprise for ya... But.. I think that's how the book ends. " Wait... Wha-?!" Once the dirty work is done, the mob Boss eliminates His chief lieutenant. Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.Isn’t that the ending to Scarface?
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Post by Marv on Mar 28, 2018 22:20:34 GMT
That's too long for a bumper sticker, sorry. Only hippies & Trump supporters have bumper stickers That would make a good bumper sticker.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 29, 2018 10:57:01 GMT
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