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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 29, 2018 11:45:33 GMT
In which Vegas thinks Biblical hell is not represented as painful and will be pretty temporary anyway - or that indeed the Bible doesn't place much importance in the life after death.Mar 28, 2018 15:26:43 GMT 1 Vegas said: LOL QED I think - but I enjoyed the special pleading none the less. And so does the biblical passage we are discussing really concern tropes of metallurgy over the harsh experience of souls? Or, more to the point, is hell never associated with torture anywhere in scripture? It would be very difficult to argue that any experience of hell would not necessarily be a torture (especially as it would be, apparently, the deprivation of God and eternal life from the damned - a point often made by Christian writers.) You would be better off arguing against the idea of hell being eternal, for which a case can both be made for, and against, to and fro based on chapter and verse. The interest is noting that alternative views can always be found, despite the frequent tunnel vision of the devoutly-challenged - which, ultimately, is why religion is so much fun. You ought to know I don't hold a firm view on hell, for I have no belief in damnation - with or without a time limit. Whatever. Your claim that " the Bible isn't really big on there being any life after death" is plain wrong - and a bit silly, to be honest. That would be the main misconception here. And if there was little concern in scripture about the after-death experience, why are you disputing so much about the Biblical claims about hell? The punishment is eternal punishment and eternal death at that. Moreover it doesn't take a moment to realise that the really dead - i.e. the non existent - cannot ever experience anything, punishment or not. So what sort of death is it? Think it out for yourself. Which is my point. But keep going. I don't think eternal punishment can be seen as not inflicting torment by definition, especially in the context of the original audience. Remember, torture is defined the act of deliberately inflicting severe physical or psychological pain, and possibly injury to an organism, usually to one who is physically restrained or otherwise under the torturer's control or custody and unable to defend against what is being done to him or her.. See how it works? Oh I see. Is that just another allegory ? It sounds it, as 'death' was likely so too, just above. But thank you for demonstrating my point that the Bible is, yes, full of alternative views. You are entitled to this long winded special pleading.However the initial observation is, obvious: what sort of 'deaths' are we talking about? Are they nice? Or full of torment and pain, whether just psychologically or physical too. And your casual use of "eternity" here is telling about the scope of events discussed.But the simpler explanation is usually the best one. It is certainly convincing enough to persuade those Christians previously linked to at Jesus-is-savior.com LOL: "The Bible speaks of the “vengeance of eternal fire.” Hell is forever. 2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 warns, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” " etc Or, another mention of eternal fire (hell forever) seen as more painful and tormenting (presumably both psychologically and physically) than a freshly amputated hand: Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. In short, how can there be a meaningful hell at all if one is really, really dead. And how, according to regular exegesis at least, can hell really not be tormenting for those dead in it, away from God? As mentioned before, I think the reason why the notion of eternal hell for all sinners exercises believers so is that it sits uncomfortably with notions of a supposed all-good all-loving god. But even then, if we accept that, actually, one is 'not tormented' by being in hell and in fact would only be there temporarily (as you here and others would claim), that really doesn't lessen the same problem about the contradictions between what God says and what He allows/does that much in any case. But, hey, they're your myths and, naturally you are welcome to adjust them to fit conscience and logic as much as you wish.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 29, 2018 12:13:54 GMT
I posted that just to see how full literalist you've gone. I can only imagine what you would do with a knock knock joke. FF: But opportunity can't knock on a door...
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 29, 2018 12:29:58 GMT
tpfkar I posted that just to see how full literalist you've gone. I can only imagine what you would do with a knock knock joke. FF: But opportunity can't knock on a door... Actually, he was just rolling with your silly, and you blew up all overliteral-like. BAM. Danger!
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Post by Vegas on Mar 29, 2018 13:37:22 GMT
Jesus.. Most of that is just drivel.... Yes... But you demand that others do.... and cry when you find that some don't.. For scriptural reasons. . Funny you should say it like that.... You sound just like a Bible writer..
Ecclesiastes 9:2 - 6 2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good, so with the sinful; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them. 3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.Ecclesiastes 9: 10 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.Being how's that one isn't in a book that is specifically about allegorical visions.... "Think it out for yourself."
The kind where you are dead. That's it..... Kind of like the "not born, yet" experience... What kind of existence do you think that was?
And.. yes... There are various references to fire in The Bible... That fire has the same effect that the fire has in reality... The shit you throw in it is destroyed... You throw shit in a fire to be destroyed... You are not torturing your old stuffed animals... They just became worthless in your eyes. You know you're the one who starts these conversations, right? - "GOD IS A MONSTER!!! HE TORTURES PEOPLE FOR ETERNITY! IT SAYS SO IN THE BIBLE!!!" - "You know that's not really a Bible teaching?... Like J ohn 3:16 (a verse everybody knows) makes the comparison of 'perish' as being the opposite 'eternal life'... There's no mention of torture." - "God throws Satan in the lake of fire and is 'tormented for eternity." - "Well... 'lake of fire' is generally a symbol of destruction... and 'torment' could mean that his destruction serves as a touchstone that sets a standard (the primary definition of the word) for all eternity." - "GOD IS EVIL!! HE TORMENTS THE DEVIL FOR ALL ETERNITY!!" - ".... I just explained how that might not be the case..." - "WHY ARE YOU DISPUTING SO MUCH ABOUT THE BIBLICAL CLAIMS OF HELL?"
Dude... You don't get to reference anyone else as being "long winded"? Have you seen that huge pile of shit that you call a post?
insert code here
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 29, 2018 13:51:19 GMT
tpfkar ...frantic JW wordbending chatter... "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever". Some will be too dumb to feel it. words to live by
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Post by Vegas on Mar 29, 2018 13:59:24 GMT
Rabbit.....
Nobody cares about your stupid shit.
Find another hobby.
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 29, 2018 14:00:46 GMT
tpfkar I know... Sometimes it's fun to make up words. I know it's not a direct quote... I'm talking to the person in question... I assume that he knows what he says... Good excuse as any for making up crap people didn't say. words to live by
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 29, 2018 14:06:22 GMT
I posted that just to see how full literalist you've gone. I can only imagine what you would do with a knock knock joke. FF: But opportunity can't knock on a door... A good attempt at a row back by you but I usually assume faithists, especially fundamentalists, are being literalist when they reply, and for good reason. They are. Like someone who disputes over several days over whether the 'week' in genesis was an efficient use of God's time or not. Or talks of the devil and hell as a real person and place. Remember?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Mar 29, 2018 14:22:03 GMT
I posted that just to see how full literalist you've gone. I can only imagine what you would do with a knock knock joke. FF: But opportunity can't knock on a door... A good attempt at a row back by you but I usually assume faithists, especially fundamentalists, are being literalist when they reply, and for good reason. They are. Like someone who disputes over several days over whether the 'week' in genesis was an efficient use of God's time or not. Or talks of the devil and hell as a real person and place. Remember? What kind of a stupid turd says "fundamentalist" anymore? It's rather an archaic term, much like "fascist."
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 29, 2018 14:31:53 GMT
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Post by Vegas on Mar 29, 2018 14:37:01 GMT
faithists, especially fundamentalists, are being literalist Like someone who disputes over several days over whether the 'week' in genesis was an efficient use of God's time or not. Whew...Good thing that you cite a thread that you had no part in... You'd just rather be in this thread for several days.... where you constantly point out that God must literally be viewed as literally torturing the devil in a very literal lake of fire.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 29, 2018 14:37:03 GMT
I posted that just to see how full literalist you've gone. I can only imagine what you would do with a knock knock joke. FF: But opportunity can't knock on a door... A good attempt at a row back by you but I usually assume faithists, especially fundamentalists, are being literalist when they reply, and for good reason. They are. Like someone who disputes over several days over whether the 'week' in genesis was an efficient use of God's time or not. Or talks of the devil and hell as a real person and place. Remember? The only reason you wold ever view me as a literalist anything is because you can;t be bothered to read what you quote. It's cute for a couple of pages and prejudging someone always means you can easily win an argument one verse man!
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 29, 2018 14:52:16 GMT
A good attempt at a row back by you but I usually assume faithists, especially fundamentalists, are being literalist when they reply, and for good reason. They are. Like someone who disputes over several days over whether the 'week' in genesis was an efficient use of God's time or not. Or talks of the devil and hell as a real person and place. Remember? What kind of a stupid turd says "fundamentalist" anymore? It's rather an archaic term, much like "fascist." It is still widely used and understood. But perhaps not by you.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 29, 2018 14:55:56 GMT
faithists, especially fundamentalists, are being literalist Like someone who disputes over several days over whether the 'week' in genesis was an efficient use of God's time or not. Whew...Good thing that you cite a thread that you had no part in... You'd just rather be in this thread for several days.... where you constantly point out that God must literally be viewed as literally torturing the devil in a very literal lake of fire. As an atheist I don't necessarily hold any beliefs about the sacred supernatural at all, but I do feel free to adopt a frame of reference to more easily critique related views and ideas. But I think you really know that.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 29, 2018 15:02:44 GMT
The only reason you wold [sic] ever view me as a literalist anything is because you can;t be bothered to read what you quote. So, presumably then going by these words you think the idea of supernatural creation, let alone your purported deity is not literal, and just an allegory? Heaven and hell don't really exist? Thank you for clearing that up. It's more post-judging with me. And you ought to know that some of the most significant lines in the Bible are single ones.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Mar 29, 2018 15:05:26 GMT
Whew...Good thing that you cite a thread that you had no part in... You'd just rather be in this thread for several days.... where you constantly point out that God must literally be viewed as literally torturing the devil in a very literal lake of fire. As an atheist I don't necessarily hold any beliefs about the sacred supernatural at all, but I do feel free to adopt a frame of reference to more easily critique related views and ideas. But I think you really know that. What you mean here is that as an "atheist" you cannot conceive of anything going on beyond three dimensions.
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Post by cupcakes on Mar 29, 2018 15:07:29 GMT
tpfkar What kind of a stupid turd says "fundamentalist" anymore? It's rather an archaic term, much like "fascist." I guess "stupid turds" would work just as well for them. You haven't proven it's the moon yet, you filthy vile scumbag.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 29, 2018 15:31:27 GMT
Jesus.. Most of that is just drivel.... That seems a little harsh on the New Testament, don't you think? I don't 'demand' that the devoutly-challenged do (or think) anything. I just respond to their comments and ideas and ask the obvious questions. I can see, though how this might be irritating for you. And I have also said, several times, that I readily acknowledge that alternate views are available. As you show. . And, as already observed if the dead really know nothing, they cannot know hell, whether permanent or not. They cannot know they are away from God and so suffer the torment of knowing, Or know His punishment or judgment. I do so enjoy the Bible's contradictions, don't you? That still does not affect my previous observation that the allegory still needs to make metaphysical sense notwithstanding. You need to stop wriggling. I don't know: I just don't have youre sort of literalness. For you are now, suddenly, accepting a literal nature to these notions of the unborn, and dead, having 'experiences' aren't you? What ever happened to all the allegories? You are doing that literal thing again. And all I can do is repeat that plenty of Xians believe in eternal hell fire and damnation, as I have shown, while at the same assuming an all-loving God. They may be wrong. You may be wrong. As said before, it's your religion, you will have to work out the contradictions of that positions between yourselves lol I didn't start this thread Vegas. And, it may be observed, you are one of those still replying. You are doing that straw man thing again, unfortunately. And yet, here you are. But now I see you are resorting to crudity. And you know what happened when you grew personally insulting last time.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 29, 2018 15:34:01 GMT
As an atheist I don't necessarily hold any beliefs about the sacred supernatural at all, but I do feel free to adopt a frame of reference to more easily critique related views and ideas. But I think you really know that. What you mean here is that as an "atheist" you cannot conceive of anything going on beyond three dimensions. No by an atheist I mean that I lack belief in the deliberate supernatural. There is nothing wrong with my imagination. But because something is possible it does not mean it is likely. Also you ought to remember (since we have discussed this very fact before in a dispute over a presumed hierarchy) that time is the fourth dimension and science has given mathematical proofs for several more.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 29, 2018 16:03:58 GMT
Okay.. I'm just going back to calling you names.... HOW THE FCK ARE YOU SO STUPID TO THINK AT ANY POINT IN THAT REPLY THAT I AM ADVOCATING THAT THE UNBORN AND DEAD "EXPERIENCE" ANYTHING? Edit: It's LITERALLY quite the opposite. That's the problem with these endless conversations with you.... YOU'RE JUST A MORON. To demonstrate that point even further: NOTICE HOW I DIDN'T SAY "THREAD", MORON??... Yeah... THAT HOW CONVERSATIONS WORK, STUPID. You're a fcking idiot. I know.... "You're being mean now... This conversation is over".
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