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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 23, 2017 21:39:58 GMT
I didn't impose anything, I just asked a question, so your assertion that I endangered anybody makes no sense. As everyone in that thread agreed, you didn't ask questions. You implied TG people should accept their chromosomal type and the original form of their bodies, and that they were damaging themselves by accepting their identity. People then, including me, proceeded to give you all the evidence against your rule (which is an imposition, by the way) over their behavior and the irrational beliefs behind it, and you disregarded everything without any evidence. Why? Because they didn’t make you feel anything different. You are moved by faith alone, no reason nor science there. The things you implied are, yes, discussions about government policy (unless we lived in an abstract world where no discussion on practical issues that are a government’s responsibility ever becomes concrete, which is not the case), beyond of course already being, by themselves, expressions of social transphobia, which, yes, also impact society. All of this endangers TG people, and what makes no sense is your irrational belief that these things have no impact whatsoever. Nothing of this is faith in God by itself, which was what I referred to. Yes, other beliefs that often accompany faith in God and religion are in fact harmful, but they are not a given. There are progressive religious people with liberal political beliefs, you know? And they are far more progressive than you. So no, faith in God is not harmful by itself. According to the viewpoint I mentioned, it's a bad guess, but not necessarily a harmful one by itself. Your faith, however, is just as harmful as the examples you provided above. It drives policies that lead people to suicide, discrimination and violence, and it is itself a social expression of discrimination and identity denial. I wasn't expressing an irrational belief regarding TG at all, or being phobic of it. I think you are trying to interpret what I said in the most negative context possible. I simply asked a question as to why it should be treated any differently than somebody who wanted to do other physical harm to themselves. I know there is this politically correct response that things like this should never be questioned, but why not?
Regarding faith in a god, you said it's a bad guess, and I agree. That's all that really matters, and trying to excuse that is just an excuse.
My faith? What faith is that? I don't use faith to justify anything. What I hold to be true is justified by evidence, and does not promote discrimination, and certainly not violence.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 21:49:16 GMT
What's your evidence that it can occur naturally? The fact that we've shown amino acids can form and that we've created self replicating RNA molecules. Notice I'm not claiming to know the entire process or that this is as an absolutely certainty.
What's your evidence that a god is required?
Amino acids can form from nothing? Well, that is certainly more believable than a Creator. I already told you you wouldn't understand so there's no point in continuing
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Post by NishmatHaChalil on Mar 23, 2017 22:34:17 GMT
I wasn't expressing an irrational belief regarding TG at all, or being phobic of it. I think you are trying to interpret what I said in the most negative context possible. I simply asked a question as to why it should be treated any differently than somebody who wanted to do other physical harm to themselves. I know there is this politically correct response that things like this should never be questioned, but why not?
Regarding faith in a god, you said it's a bad guess, and I agree. That's all that really matters, and trying to excuse that is just an excuse.
My faith? What faith is that? I don't use faith to justify anything. What I hold to be true is justified by evidence, and does not promote discrimination, and certainly not violence.
Yes you were and still are. While you keep suggesting they are harming themselves, you will keep promoting their discrimination, and you will keep being transphobic. It's not up to you to decide what transphobia is or is not, since you don't even acknowledge their identity. About the reasons for not suggesting they are hurting themselves, how about the obvious fact that neuroscience suggest they really have brains compatible with their identity, or every person's unalienable right to have their own identity, or the fact that all of the process they go through is still more rewarding for them than living with identity denial, or the fact that questioning their identity stregthens society's already dim views on it, and promotes laws and attitudes that drive them to suicide? How about the obvious fact that identity is a personal matter other people should not decide for you? How would you feel, for instance, if I questioned your right to be considered a man, since you are obviously harming yourself by holding such insane beliefs? And what if most of society did not recognize you as a man either, as they shouldn't (following your logic), and were willing to take that from you, so you stop harming yourself? Would that still be accpetable to you? Or your right to have a home? Or your right to live in your own country among people who speak the same language that you do? Or your right to go out with whoever you want to and who feels the same way? Or your right to raise your own children? Or your right to speak your native language? Now imagine that all of these views are spread enough to bring about concrete consequences for your personal life, or to even take everything from you. Would that still be acceptable? And even if you really were ready to give up on everything that makes up your identity, do bear in mind that other people may feel differently. But, apparently, you don't care about other people, nor about evidence, nor about anything besides your irrational personal belief system and how it makes you feel good when you feel you are being progressive by supporting gay people because they keep the purity of their bodies. Yay for you! Sadly, really progressive people are not going to take your side, and your reasons for supporting gay people are already wrong by default, so the fact that you happens to support them is a mere work of chance. Had they deviated from your personal irrational beliefs about their identity and why their existence is ok, without causing any damage to anyone, they would still be opposed by you. Politically correct literally means that which, in political (ethical) terms, is correct. Quite a stupid umbrella for the right to claim as an enemy, but that's not my business. Either way, you are factually incorrect on your data (for there is none, apparently) and also harmful for other people, which is what you call "incorrect" and I rightfully call harmfulness. I don't know why you keep pretending that is ok. But sure, keep your pride about that. Just don't expect anyone else here to take you seriously anymore. Believing in God is a bad guess from an inductive-deductive point of view, but the reasons behind it are every person's own business. It most certainly is not your business. Moreover, bad guesses are still infinitely better than positions that deny facts, like yours, and, even worse, that deny the identity of one group, incorrectly state they are damaging themselves, suggest this is an a priori assumption everyone should have and still dare to feign blissfull ignorance about the social, political and legal consequences of such assumptions. At least Christian fundamentalists are less cowardly in their hate speech, or, like they (you) call it, "questioning". Your faith is the faith in TG people being harming themselves. That certainly is faith, as there is no evidence behind it, or at least no evidence which you thought you should bring to us to contrappose the evidences left by science and the civil rights movement, which, assuming you did not bring any because you don't have any that stands on its own with science, if we are to follow the same principles that determine that believing in God is a bad guess, is the same as no evidence whatsoever. So no, you are the same as religious fundamentalists, and I see no difference between you and them. The fact you are so obsessed about other peoples' right to have faith in God is also telling. Apparently you have no other reason to be here than that of acting as an irrational bigot who wants everyone to conform to his own personal irrational beliefs, while happily ignoring the consequences of his own actions. And you still act surprised when everyone here dislikes you and agree you are up to no rational or constructive exchange whatsoever? You have no reason to be surprised at all.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 24, 2017 2:27:49 GMT
I wasn't expressing an irrational belief regarding TG at all, or being phobic of it. I think you are trying to interpret what I said in the most negative context possible. I simply asked a question as to why it should be treated any differently than somebody who wanted to do other physical harm to themselves. I know there is this politically correct response that things like this should never be questioned, but why not?
Regarding faith in a god, you said it's a bad guess, and I agree. That's all that really matters, and trying to excuse that is just an excuse.
My faith? What faith is that? I don't use faith to justify anything. What I hold to be true is justified by evidence, and does not promote discrimination, and certainly not violence.
Yes you were and still are. While you keep suggesting they are harming themselves, you will keep promoting their discrimination, and you will keep being transphobic. It's not up to you to decide what transphobia is or is not, since you don't even acknowledge their identity. About the reasons for not suggesting they are hurting themselves, how about the obvious fact that neuroscience suggest they really have brains compatible with their identity, or every person's unalienable right to have their own identity, or the fact that all of the process they go through is still more rewarding for them than living with identity denial, or the fact that questioning their identity stregthens society's already dim views on it, and promotes laws and attitudes that drive them to suicide? How about the obvious fact that identity is a personal matter other people should not decide for you? How would you feel, for instance, if I questioned your right to be considered a man, since you are obviously harming yourself by holding such insane beliefs? And what if most of society did not recognize you as a man either, as they shouldn't (following your logic), and were willing to take that from you, so you stop harming yourself? Would that still be accpetable to you? Or your right to have a home? Or your right to live in your own country among people who speak the same language that you do? Or your right to go out with whoever you want to and who feels the same way? Or your right to raise your own children? Or your right to speak your native language? Now imagine that all of these views are spread enough to bring about concrete consequences for your personal life, or to even take everything from you. Would that still be acceptable? And even if you really were ready to give up on everything that makes up your identity, do bear in mind that other people may feel differently. But, apparently, you don't care about other people, nor about evidence, nor about anything besides your irrational personal belief system and how it makes you feel good when you feel you are being progressive by supporting gay people because they keep the purity of their bodies. Yay for you! Sadly, really progressive people are not going to take your side, and your reasons for supporting gay people are already wrong by default, so the fact that you happens to support them is a mere work of chance. Had they deviated from your personal irrational beliefs about their identity and why their existence is ok, without causing any damage to anyone, they would still be opposed by you. Politically correct literally means that which, in political (ethical) terms, is correct. Quite a stupid umbrella for the right to claim as an enemy, but that's not my business. Either way, you are factually incorrect on your data (for there is none, apparently) and also harmful for other people, which is what you call "incorrect" and I rightfully call harmfulness. I don't know why you keep pretending that is ok. But sure, keep your pride about that. Just don't expect anyone else here to take you seriously anymore. Believing in God is a bad guess from an inductive-deductive point of view, but the reasons behind it are every person's own business. It most certainly is not your business. Moreover, bad guesses are still infinitely better than positions that deny facts, like yours, and, even worse, that deny the identity of one group, incorrectly state they are damaging themselves, suggest this is an a priori assumption everyone should have and still dare to feign blissfull ignorance about the social, political and legal consequences of such assumptions. At least Christian fundamentalists are less cowardly in their hate speech, or, like they (you) call it, "questioning". Your faith is the faith in TG people being harming themselves. That certainly is faith, as there is no evidence behind it, or at least no evidence which you thought you should bring to us to contrappose the evidences left by science and the civil rights movement, which, assuming you did not bring any because you don't have any that stands on its own with science, if we are to follow the same principles that determine that believing in God is a bad guess, is the same as no evidence whatsoever. So no, you are the same as religious fundamentalists, and I see no difference between you and them. The fact you are so obsessed about other peoples' right to have faith in God is also telling. Apparently you have no other reason to be here than that of acting as an irrational bigot who wants everyone to conform to his own personal irrational beliefs, while happily ignoring the consequences of his own actions. And you still act surprised when everyone here dislikes you and agree you are up to no rational or constructive exchange whatsoever? You have no reason to be surprised at all. I don't have a faith in TG people harming themselves. I was asking the question, is there a difference in say an anorexic thinking they are fat, and a man thinking he is a woman. Clearly we can see that people can have incorrect perceptions about themselves. Do we only help the anorexic because they might die? But then we applaud elective surgery? Why? I'm seriously asking.
And I'm not obsessed with people's right to believe in god, I'm speaking out against the belief. What's telling is that you think nobody should ever question it? Why not? What is wrong with challenging any idea?
And I don't know why you're bothering to keep up with who likes or dislikes me. I know I'm not keeping up with it. Don't like me if you want. Or like me. I'm not interested either way.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 24, 2017 2:30:49 GMT
The fact that we've shown amino acids can form and that we've created self replicating RNA molecules. Notice I'm not claiming to know the entire process or that this is as an absolutely certainty.
What's your evidence that a god is required?
Amino acids can form from nothing? Well, that is certainly more believable than a Creator. I already told you you wouldn't understand so there's no point in continuing Nobody said they formed from nothing. Just like you didn't form from nothing. It's a chemical process by which elements that already existed, under a set of conditions formed a compound we call RNA.
Are you saying your evidence for god is incapable of being understood? I can understand concepts like quantum fluctuation and gravitational lensing, so I'm sure I can handle whatever you've got.
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Post by dividavi on Mar 24, 2017 3:42:36 GMT
The fact that we've shown amino acids can form and that we've created self replicating RNA molecules. Notice I'm not claiming to know the entire process or that this is as an absolutely certainty.
What's your evidence that a god is required?
Amino acids can form from nothing? Well, that is certainly more believable than a Creator. I already told you you wouldn't understand so there's no point in continuing He never said that amino acids can form from nothing. Rather, that was your deliberate misrepresentation of what he said. It appears that amino acids were first formed from materials available billions of years ago in the manner of the Miller-Urey experiment. You would then ask where those materials came from and the answer is that they're by-products of hydrogen fusion. You'd then ask where the hydrogen came from and (if I knew) I'd tell you and you'd ask where the quarks, leptons came from. Ultimately I'd run out of answers and you'd say triumphantly, "Aha, God!" If I asked you where God cane from you'd say that He's immortal and needs no beginning. Well, if your Creator is something needs no origin than it's just as logical to say the basic stuff that constitutes matter/energy is also something that needs no beginning; it always was. At this point you should come up with smart-aleck retort along the lines of your earlier, "Amino acids can form from nothing? Well, that is certainly more believable than a Creator." Maybe this time you can use stuff like "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist," or "Scientists don't have all the answers." You know, use throwaway lines to convince yourself how clever you are. The answer to the question, "Do Christians Understand Why People Don't Believe Them? " is that Christians like you don't understand why people don't believe them. That's because people of your sort don't really care about logic and facts - as you've proven throughout this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 6:16:03 GMT
"That's because people of your sort don't really care about logic and facts - as you've proven throughout this thread."
What logic and facts? That basic stuff that constitutes matter/energy all came from God? Makes perfect sense to me
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