|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 22:50:16 GMT
Prove that I misrepresented it then. Because he certainly didn't provide proof of my misrepresentation. All he did was accuse me that I was wrong and what I was saying was bullshit, and you're acting as if the simple act of him disagreeing with me and calling me out is somehow already proof that I had misrepresented information. Right now all you're really doing is proving my points in the OP. You're immediately assuming that your position is correct and that I am wrong, without any evidence to back it up. For my part, I'm not even saying you're wrong, just that you have a different opinion. All he did was not just accuse you that you were wrong but provide rational explanations that why were wrong. You have since made zero efforts to counter the points made by faustus5. You have been since crying that you were attacked and that it’s just your opinion which are different from others. Nopes, your claims about feminism are misleading as clearly explained by faustus5. Ah, provided such rational explanations such as these: "This entire post is unmitigated bullshit of the highest order." "you don't make up bullshit based on your personal encounters" I don't really need to counter his points because he pretty much proved my points in how he replied. Same way you're doing now.
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on Jul 6, 2018 23:14:46 GMT
All he did was not just accuse you that you were wrong but provide rational explanations that why were wrong. You have since made zero efforts to counter the points made by faustus5. You have been since crying that you were attacked and that it’s just your opinion which are different from others. Nopes, your claims about feminism are misleading as clearly explained by faustus5. Ah, provided such rational explanations such as these: "This entire post is unmitigated bullshit of the highest order." "you don't make up bullshit based on your personal encounters" I don't really need to counter his points because he pretty much proved my points in how he replied. Same way you're doing now. You do need to counter his points but you can't because your asinine OP was totally destroyed. Now keep crying about hurt feelings. It looks rather amusing when grown up adults depict so much of hurt.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 23:17:16 GMT
Ah, provided such rational explanations such as these: "This entire post is unmitigated bullshit of the highest order." "you don't make up bullshit based on your personal encounters" I don't really need to counter his points because he pretty much proved my points in how he replied. Same way you're doing now. You do need to counter his points but you can't because your asinine OP was totally destroyed. Now keep crying about hurt feelings. It looks rather amusing when grown up adults depict so much of hurt. Me: "A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion" You: "Now keep crying about hurt feelings. It looks rather amusing when grown up adults depict so much of hurt." When you're ready and able to enter in a calm, logical debate, I would gladly exchange ideas and arguments with you.
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on Jul 6, 2018 23:21:26 GMT
You do need to counter his points but you can't because your asinine OP was totally destroyed. Now keep crying about hurt feelings. It looks rather amusing when grown up adults depict so much of hurt. Me: "A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion" You: "Now keep crying about hurt feelings. It looks rather amusing when grown up adults depict so much of hurt." And none of that applies.
You: Me: "A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion" And then you: Make some nonsensical misrepresentations about what you perceive is feminism instead of addressing any genuine feminist position.
and then you: Cry about why people called you out on your silly post.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 23:25:33 GMT
Me: "A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion" You: "Now keep crying about hurt feelings. It looks rather amusing when grown up adults depict so much of hurt." And none of that applies.
You: Me: "A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion" And then you: Make some nonsensical misrepresentations about what you perceive is feminism instead of addressing any genuine feminist position.
and then you: Cry about why people called you out on your silly post.
Dude, all you've done in this thread is basically hound me and play cheerleader for Faustus. Do you even have anything remotely logical to add to the discussion? If you disagree with me so much, how bout you come up with your own reasonable counter arguments?
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on Jul 6, 2018 23:31:24 GMT
And none of that applies.
You: Me: "A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion" And then you: Make some nonsensical misrepresentations about what you perceive is feminism instead of addressing any genuine feminist position.
and then you: Cry about why people called you out on your silly post.
Dude, all you've done in this thread is basically hound me and play cheerleader for Faustus. Do you even have anything remotely logical to add to the discussion? If you disagree with me so much, how bout you come up with your own reasonable counter arguments? All I have done in this thread is make you feel hounded? Oh really sorry, little kid. I do not need to add anything to Faustus' post. You misrepresented the position of feminism and were called on it. Your post was debunked and now instead of owning up to it you are running away.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 23:35:25 GMT
Dude, all you've done in this thread is basically hound me and play cheerleader for Faustus. Do you even have anything remotely logical to add to the discussion? If you disagree with me so much, how bout you come up with your own reasonable counter arguments? All I have done in this thread is make you feel hounded? Oh really sorry, little kid. I do not need to add anything to Faustus' post. You misrepresented the position of feminism and were called on it. Your post was debunked and now instead of owning up to it you are running away.
Ah, again with the insults and name-calling. I have no problem defending my position and debating about it IF the person I'm talking to can be depended on to be calm and levelheaded about the debate. When you're ready for something like that, let me know. I'm just here.
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on Jul 6, 2018 23:37:46 GMT
All I have done in this thread is make you feel hounded? Oh really sorry, little kid. I do not need to add anything to Faustus' post. You misrepresented the position of feminism and were called on it. Your post was debunked and now instead of owning up to it you are running away.
Ah, again with the insults and name-calling. I have no problem defending my position and debating about it IF the person I'm talking to can be depended on to be calm and levelheaded about the debate. When you're ready for something like that, let me know. I'm just here. You already told us about your hurt feelings. And yes, you have problem in defending your position as you have yet not refuted the counter arguments of Faustus5.
|
|
|
Post by faustus5 on Jul 7, 2018 11:54:58 GMT
This has nothing to do with my feelings. You just proved that the moment someone says something contradictory to feminism, that person immediately can get attacked. When some ignorant loser denies evolutionary biology by saying, "If evolution really happened, why are there still monkeys?", it is quite common for scientists or defenders of science to mercilessly attack said ignorant loser. So why don't you start a thread comparing science to religion on the same basis? It would make about as much sense as your idiotic OP.
People who know and understand a subject tend to be extremely dismissive and contemptuous of individuals who say stupid things about those subjects. That's all that is going on here.
More ignorant bullshit on your part. It is just a fact that you have mischaracterized what mainstream feminism says. I am a feminist, have been for decades, and I know what we believe and how influential various factions are (because feminism is not a monolithic set of established beliefs every feminist completely agrees with). You manifestly do not understand what mainstream feminism says.
Oh, so do you think that I, an actual bona fide feminist, don't actually know what we believe? It is your thread. You opened it up with characterizations that I, an actual feminist, am calling bullshit on. Since it is YOUR thread, and YOU are the one making these claims, then it is YOUR responsibility to back them up. If you can't (and believe me, you absolutely can't), then your argument is destroyed. Case closed.
Here is what you need to do in order to stop looking like a fool. You need to come up with independently verifiable examples of feminists actually saying, in their own words, what you say they believe, or actually behaving as you say they behave (show them shoving feminism down society's throat the way religion does), and then you have to demonstrate that these views or behaviors are systematic and part of the mainstream norm of feminism. Because the behavior of individuals doesn't matter--one can find unreasonable and idiotic things being proposed by anyone defending any kind of "ism" you choose to look at. No, what you need to establish is that these beliefs and behaviors not only exist, but exist widely in exactly the same proportions that they do among the religious. Nothing short of this will do.
Good luck with that!!!
|
|
|
Post by phludowin on Jul 8, 2018 12:52:43 GMT
My two cents. You want rational discourse? In that case, I will now rationally explain why most of your points are wrong. I'll start with point 2. 2. Despite the point in #1, most religions all have some questionable and hateful messages every now and then: infidels will burn in hell, homosexuality is evil, etc. Feminism have them as well: all men are rapists, masculinity is toxic, etc. The problem with this comparison between religions and feminism is: Religions usually have one "holy book" or main guideline; like the Bible or the Quran, the Veda or the Tanach. Feminism, contrary to popular belief, does not have one central set of guidelines. There are plenty of "feminist manifestos", but these are always the personal opinions of the authors, and none of them can claim to speak for all feminists. In fact, there is even disagreement on what feminism is. And this alone invalidates your second point. If you had said "some religions" and "some feminists", you might have been right. But saying "Feminism" is wrong in this case. But there's more. "All men are rapists" and "Masculinity is toxic" are not positions held by any mainstream feminists. If people hold them, then they are to be taken as seriously as members of the Westboro Baptist Church. Meaning: Not. Since point 2 is invalid, this also invalidates points 3 and 5; since these points need point 2 to be true, in order to be true themselves. About point 4: Feminists who push their belief down your throat, when you agree with them? I doubt they exist. This leaves points 1 and 6. You may be right about them. But two out of six is not really convincing.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2018 13:39:58 GMT
1. The objective and main message of most major religions is a good one. Most of them basically preach about love and basically doing good things. Same with feminism, its objective and main message is a good one: gender equality and basically trying to be good to anyone regardless of gender/sex. 2. Despite the point in #1, most religions all have some questionable and hateful messages every now and then: infidels will burn in hell, homosexuality is evil, etc. Feminism have them as well: all men are rapists, masculinity is toxic, etc. 3. Majority of people who believe in a religion or in feminism will believe in point #1 but don't necessarily put much credence to point #2. However, some of the loudest supporters of each will be very vocal about point #2. 4. Religious preachers and evangelizers can be extremely annoying when they're trying to preach their message to you. It doesn't matter if you silently agree with their message, the fact that they try to force their belief down your throat can be very irritating. Same is true with feminism, it doesn't matter if you internally agree with their overall message, it's still extremely irritating when their advocates try to push their belief down your throat. 5. A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion. Doesn't matter how calm or logical your point is, if you disagree with their belief you're immediately labeled a sinner, an infidel, a heretic, or some other unflattering term. Same is true with feminism: the moment you disagree or outright contradict their beliefs, regardless of how logical your arguments, you'll immediately get called a misogynist, bigot, sexist, or some other unflattering term. 6. A good number of religious people will nowadays prefer to keep quiet about their religious belief, as they don't want to get associated with the negative reputation surrounding their religion. In the same way, a number of feminists nowadays prefer to keep quiet about their feminism, as they don't want to get associated with the negative reputation surrounding a lot of feminists. The similarities you find between feminism and religion are trivial and vague. You have not shown causation linked to feminism or religion. There could be other causes. Sometimes I compare baseball and religion. For example I'll make the point, "Saying there is no such thing as a god is like saying there is no such thing as baseball." There are large crowds attending each for example. It is a similarity, but it doesn't mean there is much more that baseball and religion have in common, or that there is any other reason to compare them at all. The similarity isn't meaningful except that having a large attendance indicates something, albeit something quite different. If you look long enough you can find similarities between macrame and croquet. Except for the purposes of some illustration such as I was making, why would you? Elsewhere I made the point that there are "stupid" people everywhere. Some of them claim to be religious, many claim to be atheists, there are stupid Republicans and stupid Democrats, no one likes to admit it, but there might be stupid women. There might be stupid advocates of feminism and stupid advocates of some notion of religion. That would not however mean that feminism and religion have anything significant in common. That would also not mean either is stupid in itself.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 8, 2018 15:41:42 GMT
My two cents. You want rational discourse? In that case, I will now rationally explain why most of your points are wrong. I'll start with point 2. 2. Despite the point in #1, most religions all have some questionable and hateful messages every now and then: infidels will burn in hell, homosexuality is evil, etc. Feminism have them as well: all men are rapists, masculinity is toxic, etc. The problem with this comparison between religions and feminism is: Religions usually have one "holy book" or main guideline; like the Bible or the Quran, the Veda or the Tanach. Feminism, contrary to popular belief, does not have one central set of guidelines. There are plenty of "feminist manifestos", but these are always the personal opinions of the authors, and none of them can claim to speak for all feminists. In fact, there is even disagreement on what feminism is. And this alone invalidates your second point. If you had said "some religions" and "some feminists", you might have been right. But saying "Feminism" is wrong in this case. But there's more. "All men are rapists" and "Masculinity is toxic" are not positions held by any mainstream feminists. If people hold them, then they are to be taken as seriously as members of the Westboro Baptist Church. Meaning: Not. Since point 2 is invalid, this also invalidates points 3 and 5; since these points need point 2 to be true, in order to be true themselves. About point 4: Feminists who push their belief down your throat, when you agree with them? I doubt they exist. This leaves points 1 and 6. You may be right about them. But two out of six is not really convincing. Ok, let's concentrate on point #2 since that seems to be where most of your objections stem from. First of all, I never said religion and feminism were the same, I merely listed similarities between them on areas where they overlap. Therefore, we can easily list down a whole host of differences between them (like most religions having a single text book whereas feminism has none) but it won't necessarily invalidate my argument since I never claimed they were exactly the same. Now on to point #2 - just to clarify: Are you saying that you think current, modern-day feminism has all been positive? That not once have they delivered negative or questionable messages? That not once have they taken a questionable or toxic stance on any issue? Because that's basically what I'm saying in point #2. Not that the whole movement is negative, in fact I clarified that it is positive in #1. #2 merely states that there are some aspects of it (and I believe how much or how few is subjective) that are negative or at least questionable. So if you believe #2 is wrong, then it seems to imply that you believe feminism and everything about it or everything done in its name are all very positive.
|
|
|
Post by phludowin on Jul 8, 2018 17:01:27 GMT
Ok, let's concentrate on point #2 since that seems to be where most of your objections stem from. Now on to point #2 - just to clarify: Are you saying that you think current, modern-day feminism has all been positive? That not once have they delivered negative or questionable messages? That not once have they taken a questionable or toxic stance on any issue? Can you list any examples? Because "all men are rapists" and "masculinity is toxic" are positions I have never heard from any modern-day mainstream feminist. So I am concluding that they are strawmen. I have personally heard suggestions from modern-day mainstream feminists that I disagree with, but nothing I would call "toxic". Questionable maybe, but nothing in the same league as "homosexuality is evil" or "burn infidels". Because that's basically what I'm saying in point #2. Not that the whole movement is negative, in fact I clarified that it is positive in #1. #2 merely states that there are some aspects of it (and I believe how much or how few is subjective) that are negative or at least questionable. So if you believe #2 is wrong, then it seems to imply that you believe feminism and everything about it or everything done in its name are all very positive. What is "negative" or "questionable" in some aspects of feminism is purely a matter of opinion. Some feminists may agree on some points and disagree on others. The good thing about feminism is that if feminists disagree with each other, they are not arrested, or stoned, or excommunicated. Because feminism is not a religion.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2018 17:50:06 GMT
My two cents. You want rational discourse? In that case, I will now rationally explain why most of your points are wrong. I'll start with point 2. The problem with this comparison between religions and feminism is: Religions usually have one "holy book" or main guideline; like the Bible or the Quran, the Veda or the Tanach. Feminism, contrary to popular belief, does not have one central set of guidelines. There are plenty of "feminist manifestos", but these are always the personal opinions of the authors, and none of them can claim to speak for all feminists. In fact, there is even disagreement on what feminism is. And this alone invalidates your second point. If you had said "some religions" and "some feminists", you might have been right. But saying "Feminism" is wrong in this case. But there's more. "All men are rapists" and "Masculinity is toxic" are not positions held by any mainstream feminists. If people hold them, then they are to be taken as seriously as members of the Westboro Baptist Church. Meaning: Not. Since point 2 is invalid, this also invalidates points 3 and 5; since these points need point 2 to be true, in order to be true themselves. About point 4: Feminists who push their belief down your throat, when you agree with them? I doubt they exist. This leaves points 1 and 6. You may be right about them. But two out of six is not really convincing. Ok, let's concentrate on point #2 since that seems to be where most of your objections stem from. First of all, I never said religion and feminism were the same, I merely listed similarities between them on areas where they overlap. Therefore, we can easily list down a whole host of differences between them (like most religions having a single text book whereas feminism has none) but it won't necessarily invalidate my argument since I never claimed they were exactly the same. Now on to point #2 - just to clarify: Are you saying that you think current, modern-day feminism has all been positive? That not once have they delivered negative or questionable messages? That not once have they taken a questionable or toxic stance on any issue? Because that's basically what I'm saying in point #2. Not that the whole movement is negative, in fact I clarified that it is positive in #1. #2 merely states that there are some aspects of it (and I believe how much or how few is subjective) that are negative or at least questionable. So if you believe #2 is wrong, then it seems to imply that you believe feminism and everything about it or everything done in its name are all very positive. I suspect what might be annoying others as much as it annoys me about your OP is that there appears no point to it. There is a similarity between my bird feeder and my bicycle, both have carabiner clips. The clips hold the bird feeder up so that I can easily take it down to fill it with bird seed on the weekends then put it back up. (I leave it empty Monday through Friday so they can concentrate on harmful insects.) On my bicycle the clips are to keep packages from falling off the carrier I have. Can you see how there is really no point to starting a discussion thread about "the similarities between bird feeders and bicycles"? Such "similarities" as can be found are rather incidental and meaningless. No one can guess where you're going with your observations and are recommending you not go anywhere with such a collection of irrelevant details. What was your point? "Just when you expect people to be nice, lookout! They go crazy mean."? You're a bit off yourself.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 9, 2018 10:18:34 GMT
Fair enough. But in which case the amount would be vanishingly small. But then you said " A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion. Doesn't matter how calm or logical your point is, if you disagree with their belief you're immediately labeled a sinner, an infidel, a heretic, or some other unflattering term. Same is true with feminism.." See what you did there? He did indeed. So now I know of one who, indeed, says as you suggested. Or that anyone could potentially say it, too. However I might add that "all faithists who post negatively, or disapprovingly about feminism on message boards potentially have hidden issues" is, in this context, just as equally valid and just as illuminating. Uhmm... Ok? I don't see how what I said about disagreeing with religion/feminism contradicts what I said earlier. *shrugs* It matters since as the above quote showed you appear to be making a generalisation based on a minority. Or in other words, stereotyping.
|
|
|
Post by phludowin on Jul 9, 2018 10:41:34 GMT
My two cents. You want rational discourse? In that case, I will now rationally explain why most of your points are wrong. I'll start with point 2. ...Feminism, contrary to popular belief, does not have one central set of guidelines. There are plenty of "feminist manifestos", but these are always the personal opinions of the authors, and none of them can claim to speak for all feminists. In fact, there is even disagreement on what feminism is.... Exactly! What is it?
I have yet to hear of a solid, grounded and reasonable explanation that clearly defines feminism with clarity, honesty and truth. It is just an abstract label\tag, which holds an insecure need to identify as something, when the cause is dubious, deficient and full of shortcomings than can easily be deflated. It is very much like a religions belief in God in that respect. Not every female cares to identify as a feminist and males that identify as a feminists are a lost cause and don't deserve their balls.
"Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." I agree with it, and I identify as feminist in that sense. And considering the fact that women are people to be "dubious, deficient and full of shortcomings" is questionable, to say the least. But it makes it easy to dismiss any other opinion on feminism someome might have, if they doubt the personhood of women.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Jul 9, 2018 11:16:53 GMT
The similarities you find between feminism and religion are trivial and vague. You have not shown causation linked to feminism or religion. There could be other causes.
Sometimes I compare baseball and religion. For example I'll make the point, "Saying there is no such thing as a god is like saying there is no such thing as baseball." There are large crowds attending each for example. It is a similarity, but it doesn't mean there is much more that baseball and religion have in common, or that there is any other reason to compare them at all. The similarity isn't meaningful except that having a large attendance indicates something, albeit something quite different. If you look long enough you can find similarities between macrame and croquet. Except for the purposes of some illustration such as I was making, why would you? Elsewhere I made the point that there are "stupid" people everywhere. Some of them claim to be religious, many claim to be atheists, there are stupid Republicans and stupid Democrats, no one likes to admit it, but there might be stupid women. There might be stupid advocates of feminism and stupid advocates of some notion of religion. That would not however mean that feminism and religion have anything significant in common. That would also not mean either is stupid in itself. More false equivalencies Arlon.
There is NO Causation for either, they are ideals based on a belief only. Where is the belief? Please show it to me.
I am not seeing any successful challenge to the obvious fact that a large attendance has some reason or other. It might not be interesting to you, you probably are not attending. Obviously others not only attend, but return time after time, and that certainly means something.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 9, 2018 11:39:23 GMT
I am not seeing any successful challenge to the obvious fact that a large attendance has some reason or other. It might not be interesting to you, you probably are not attending. Obviously others not only attend, but return time after time, and that certainly means something. A large number of people attending a church to worship God, is like a large number of people attending a baseball game. The attendance is by worshippers of either or both. One can know logically of the game of baseball and one can know logically of a church that people attend, but one CANNOT know logically about the Christian notion of God. Therefore, one cannot know logically about the ideal of feminism, which operates on the same ideal abstract of God. I'm not sure about this, although I agree that an abstract notion like an 'ideal' is hard to 'see' more than 'apprehend'. But if we accept the definition of feminism as a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women, then the ideals of feminism would, presumably, be in achieving those goals in a measureable, effective and timely way. It is considerable easier to see people working for feminism of 'feminism in action', more than the supernatural's actions. I can't see something often so nebulous as an unproved god, working in mysterious ways etc being so measureable. In short while nothing can be known for sure about the transcendental so very often statements can be meaningless; plenty can be known about the workings of feminism and its often explicitly stated ideals (in fact it is some of these perceived ideals, or their concrete manifestations, that conservatives often rail about).
And some people obviously think that feminism has ideals, enough to relate them back to the Almighty anyway:
www.christianitytoday.com/women/2017/march/god-feminist-ideals-is-bible-good-for-women.html
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 9, 2018 12:41:40 GMT
Feminism, is a movement that represents women who choose to identify as something, to gain something, just as those that believe in a Christian God does. The actions of both feminists and religions can be documented, but both are still based on an ideals of "superiority". Last time I checked, feminism was predicated around notions of equality of treatment between the sexes. You are welcome to your opinions. By several yardsticks, women are still second class citizens in most societies. More so, perhaps, away from the liberal west. At least women can now drive on their own under the Sauds, eh? Bloody complainers! They will want freedom to travel on their own next! This value judgement just seems another way of saying you are fed up with it. Yet 'whining' for equality has a long way to go, it seems. To say what is 'natural' and what not, while appealing to a standard which may not exist, opens a huge can of worms, my friend. Unfortunately the impression here is just of another male objecting to a perceived gradual erosion of superiority and prestige in an increasingly egalitarian modern society, hard won after centuries of a repressive patriarchal one. I've read this sort of stuff right back, through social history, from conservatives. Women complaining, they shouldn't raise their voice, they do very well notwithstanding their continual gripes, keep them as we like it, and all the rest of it. But as already said, you are welcome to your views and fully entitled to them. I'm only surprised that you don't say that feminism is unlady-like. It just makes one depressed to see it written out again when there is so much else to fight for.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 9, 2018 14:16:17 GMT
Uhmm... Ok? I don't see how what I said about disagreeing with religion/feminism contradicts what I said earlier. *shrugs* It matters since as the above quote showed you appear to be making a generalisation based on a minority. Or in other words, stereotyping. No I didn't. I said a lot of times you'll get attacked if you outright disagree with religious or feminist ideals. That does not equate to saying a lot of feminists believe that all men are rapists (as this is something I never claimed). You're making a false equivalency here.
|
|