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Post by Skaathar on Jul 4, 2018 23:49:21 GMT
1. The objective and main message of most major religions is a good one. Most of them basically preach about love and basically doing good things. Same with feminism, its objective and main message is a good one: gender equality and basically trying to be good to anyone regardless of gender/sex.
2. Despite the point in #1, most religions all have some questionable and hateful messages every now and then: infidels will burn in hell, homosexuality is evil, etc. Feminism have them as well: all men are rapists, masculinity is toxic, etc.
3. Majority of people who believe in a religion or in feminism will believe in point #1 but don't necessarily put much credence to point #2. However, some of the loudest supporters of each will be very vocal about point #2.
4. Religious preachers and evangelizers can be extremely annoying when they're trying to preach their message to you. It doesn't matter if you silently agree with their message, the fact that they try to force their belief down your throat can be very irritating. Same is true with feminism, it doesn't matter if you internally agree with their overall message, it's still extremely irritating when their advocates try to push their belief down your throat.
5. A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion. Doesn't matter how calm or logical your point is, if you disagree with their belief you're immediately labeled a sinner, an infidel, a heretic, or some other unflattering term. Same is true with feminism: the moment you disagree or outright contradict their beliefs, regardless of how logical your arguments, you'll immediately get called a misogynist, bigot, sexist, or some other unflattering term.
6. A good number of religious people will nowadays prefer to keep quiet about their religious belief, as they don't want to get associated with the negative reputation surrounding their religion. In the same way, a number of feminists nowadays prefer to keep quiet about their feminism, as they don't want to get associated with the negative reputation surrounding a lot of feminists.
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Post by THawk on Jul 5, 2018 0:16:46 GMT
Good observations on the first 5, but No.6? What? Good luck saying out loud in modern Western society that you are specifically not a feminist. Pretty sure you'd be lynched on the first tree in some cities.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 5, 2018 10:12:16 GMT
Feminism have them as well: all men are rapists, masculinity is toxic, etc. I have not come across any feminists who hold the opinion that all men are rapists. |
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 5, 2018 17:34:36 GMT
Feminism have them as well: all men are rapists, masculinity is toxic, etc. I have not come across any feminists who hold the opinion that all men are rapists. I've come across a number of them. Maybe I worded it wrong. The common theme is that all men are potential rapists, simply waiting for the right opportunity to act upon their animal instincts towards women. |
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Post by faustus5 on Jul 6, 2018 13:43:21 GMT
1. The objective and main message of most major religions is a good one. Most of them basically preach about love and basically doing good things. Same with feminism, its objective and main message is a good one: gender equality and basically trying to be good to anyone regardless of gender/sex. 2. Despite the point in #1, most religions all have some questionable and hateful messages every now and then: infidels will burn in hell, homosexuality is evil, etc. Feminism have them as well: all men are rapists, masculinity is toxic, etc. 3. Majority of people who believe in a religion or in feminism will believe in point #1 but don't necessarily put much credence to point #2. However, some of the loudest supporters of each will be very vocal about point #2. 4. Religious preachers and evangelizers can be extremely annoying when they're trying to preach their message to you. It doesn't matter if you silently agree with their message, the fact that they try to force their belief down your throat can be very irritating. Same is true with feminism, it doesn't matter if you internally agree with their overall message, it's still extremely irritating when their advocates try to push their belief down your throat. 5. A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion. Doesn't matter how calm or logical your point is, if you disagree with their belief you're immediately labeled a sinner, an infidel, a heretic, or some other unflattering term. Same is true with feminism: the moment you disagree or outright contradict their beliefs, regardless of how logical your arguments, you'll immediately get called a misogynist, bigot, sexist, or some other unflattering term. 6. A good number of religious people will nowadays prefer to keep quiet about their religious belief, as they don't want to get associated with the negative reputation surrounding their religion. In the same way, a number of feminists nowadays prefer to keep quiet about their feminism, as they don't want to get associated with the negative reputation surrounding a lot of feminists. This entire post is unmitigated bullshit of the highest order.
The problem with #2: The view you describe is held by a tiny minority of feminists who do not in any way represent the mainstream of what feminism says about men. If you want to be serious about a subject, you don't make up bullshit based on your personal encounters, which none of us can verify the truth of in the first place. Given the nonsense you spewed in this OP, I actually don't believe that you've ever really encountered such feminists, contrary to your claim in another reply.
The problem with #3: One can routinely find religious people advocating exactly what you describe in #2--on television, in books, in forums like this. They are still a minority, but they wield actual power and influence in society and in politics. The same cannot be said for the stawman feminists you refer to in #2. You have to go and make an effort to find such people, and the fact is they have little to no power or influence. They sure as hell don't have their own TV shows.
The problem with #4: There is no sense in which a rational person can justifiably say that any feminists are ever or have ever forced feminism on anyone. Again, a few isolated individuals don't count. You have to point to something that is common and systematic to make a valid point. The same cannot be said for religious people. When is the last time you walked down a city street and had to endure a feminist preaching on a corner with a bullhorn? Never, is the correct answer. I routinely encounter evangelicals doing this when I make trips to downtown. Furthermore, you have religious idiots pushing discredited nonsense like creationism, or objecting to sex education in public schools. There is nothing even remotely equivalent from feminists. Nothing.
The problem with #5: You have no credibility on this point since none of us can witness the conversations you've had when this happened in order to evaluate how "calm" or "logical" you actually were. Given the incredibly weak attempts you make at arguing your point in the OP, I suspect that if a feminist was calling you names it had more to do with your complete non-understanding of feminism than anything else. On this subject, you come off as the sort of person who says "I'm not a racist, but. . .[then says something racist]".
The problem with #6: While true, it is entirely due to the misinformation and bullshit spread by people like you, and not a problem caused by actual, real feminists.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 13:49:23 GMT
1. The objective and main message of most major religions is a good one. Most of them basically preach about love and basically doing good things. Same with feminism, its objective and main message is a good one: gender equality and basically trying to be good to anyone regardless of gender/sex. 2. Despite the point in #1, most religions all have some questionable and hateful messages every now and then: infidels will burn in hell, homosexuality is evil, etc. Feminism have them as well: all men are rapists, masculinity is toxic, etc. 3. Majority of people who believe in a religion or in feminism will believe in point #1 but don't necessarily put much credence to point #2. However, some of the loudest supporters of each will be very vocal about point #2. 4. Religious preachers and evangelizers can be extremely annoying when they're trying to preach their message to you. It doesn't matter if you silently agree with their message, the fact that they try to force their belief down your throat can be very irritating. Same is true with feminism, it doesn't matter if you internally agree with their overall message, it's still extremely irritating when their advocates try to push their belief down your throat. 5. A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion. Doesn't matter how calm or logical your point is, if you disagree with their belief you're immediately labeled a sinner, an infidel, a heretic, or some other unflattering term. Same is true with feminism: the moment you disagree or outright contradict their beliefs, regardless of how logical your arguments, you'll immediately get called a misogynist, bigot, sexist, or some other unflattering term. 6. A good number of religious people will nowadays prefer to keep quiet about their religious belief, as they don't want to get associated with the negative reputation surrounding their religion. In the same way, a number of feminists nowadays prefer to keep quiet about their feminism, as they don't want to get associated with the negative reputation surrounding a lot of feminists. This entire post is unmitigated bullshit of the highest order.
The problem with #2: The view you describe is held by a tiny minority of feminists who do not in any way represent the mainstream of what feminism says about men. If you want to be serious about a subject, you don't make up bullshit based on your personal encounters, which none of us can verify the truth of in the first place. Given the nonsense you spewed in this OP, I actually don't believe that you've ever really encountered such feminists, contrary to your claim in another reply.
The problem with #3: One can routinely find religious people advocating exactly what you describe in #2--on television, in books, in forums like this. They are still a minority, but they wield actual power and influence in society and in politics. The same cannot be said for the stawman feminists you refer to in #2. You have to go and make an effort to find such people, and the fact is they have little to no power or influence. They sure as hell don't have their own TV shows.
The problem with #4: There is no sense in which a rational person can justifiably say that any feminists are ever or have ever forced feminism on anyone. Again, a few isolated individuals don't count. You have to point to something that is common and systematic to make a valid point. The same cannot be said for religious people. When is the last time you walked down a city street and had to endure a feminist preaching on a corner with a bullhorn? Never, is the correct answer. I routinely encounter evangelicals doing this when I make trips to downtown. Furthermore, you have religious idiots pushing discredited nonsense like creationism, or objecting to sex education in public schools. There is nothing even remotely equivalent from feminists. Nothing.
The problem with #5: You have no credibility on this point since none of us can witness the conversations you've had when this happened in order to evaluate how "calm" or "logical" you actually were. Given the incredibly weak attempts you make at arguing your point in the OP, I suspect that if a feminist was calling you names it had more to do with your complete non-understanding of feminism than anything else. On this subject, you come off as the sort of person who says "I'm not a racist, but. . .[then says something racist]".
The problem with #6: While true, it is entirely due to the misinformation and bullshit spread by people like you, and not a problem caused by actual, real feminists.
You just proved my point #5. Despite calmly laying down my observations without any hateful accusations, you are seemingly attacking me. "Misinformation and bullshit spread by people like you". I mean, I'm fine if you disagree with my points, but why resort to insults and personal attacks? |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 6, 2018 13:49:49 GMT
I have not come across any feminists who hold the opinion that all men are rapists. I've come across a number of them. Maybe I worded it wrong. The common theme is that all men are potential rapists, simply waiting for the right opportunity to act upon their animal instincts towards women. I have never heard this expressed, let alone by a "a lot" of feminists. There may be some extremists, somewhere of course; but it is hardly a common claim among those who simply want equality for women. The more common view, implicit or not, by some social conservatives, is that woman are somehow potentially to blame for their own rape, rather than the perpetrators. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Jul 6, 2018 14:11:13 GMT
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 14:21:27 GMT
I've come across a number of them. Maybe I worded it wrong. The common theme is that all men are potential rapists, simply waiting for the right opportunity to act upon their animal instincts towards women. I have never heard this expressed, let alone by a "a lot" of feminists. There may be some extremists, somewhere of course; but it is hardly a common claim among those who simply want equality for women. The more common view, implicit or not, by some social conservatives, is that woman are somehow potentially to blame for their own rape, rather than the perpetrators. I did not say there were "a lot" of them, at least not when compared to the overall population of feminists. I just said there were a number of them, meaning it's not just one or two of them saying it. I mean, how many Christians do you actually think believe that adulterers should be stoned? Because that's what I compared this to. Anyway, Terrapin provided one example. I can provide more later when I get the time. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 6, 2018 14:30:02 GMT
I have never heard this expressed, let alone by a "a lot" of feminists. There may be some extremists, somewhere of course; but it is hardly a common claim among those who simply want equality for women. The more common view, implicit or not, by some social conservatives, is that woman are somehow potentially to blame for their own rape, rather than the perpetrators. I did not say there were "a lot" of them, at least not when compared to the overall population of feminists. I just said there were a number of them, meaning it's not just one or two of them saying it. I mean, how many Christians do you actually think believe that adulterers should be stoned? Because that's what I compared this to. Fair enough. But in which case the amount would be vanishingly small. But then you said " A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion. Doesn't matter how calm or logical your point is, if you disagree with their belief you're immediately labeled a sinner, an infidel, a heretic, or some other unflattering term. Same is true with feminism.." See what you did there? He did indeed. So now I know of one who, indeed, says as you suggested. Or that anyone could potentially say it, too. However I might add that "all faithists who post negatively, or disapprovingly about feminism on message boards potentially have hidden issues" is, in this context, just as equally valid and just as illuminating. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 6, 2018 14:48:06 GMT
This entire post is unmitigated bullshit of the highest order.
The problem with #2: The view you describe is held by a tiny minority of feminists who do not in any way represent the mainstream of what feminism says about men. If you want to be serious about a subject, you don't make up bullshit based on your personal encounters, which none of us can verify the truth of in the first place. Given the nonsense you spewed in this OP, I actually don't believe that you've ever really encountered such feminists, contrary to your claim in another reply.
The problem with #3: One can routinely find religious people advocating exactly what you describe in #2--on television, in books, in forums like this. They are still a minority, but they wield actual power and influence in society and in politics. The same cannot be said for the stawman feminists you refer to in #2. You have to go and make an effort to find such people, and the fact is they have little to no power or influence. They sure as hell don't have their own TV shows.
The problem with #4: There is no sense in which a rational person can justifiably say that any feminists are ever or have ever forced feminism on anyone. Again, a few isolated individuals don't count. You have to point to something that is common and systematic to make a valid point. The same cannot be said for religious people. When is the last time you walked down a city street and had to endure a feminist preaching on a corner with a bullhorn? Never, is the correct answer. I routinely encounter evangelicals doing this when I make trips to downtown. Furthermore, you have religious idiots pushing discredited nonsense like creationism, or objecting to sex education in public schools. There is nothing even remotely equivalent from feminists. Nothing.
The problem with #5: You have no credibility on this point since none of us can witness the conversations you've had when this happened in order to evaluate how "calm" or "logical" you actually were. Given the incredibly weak attempts you make at arguing your point in the OP, I suspect that if a feminist was calling you names it had more to do with your complete non-understanding of feminism than anything else. On this subject, you come off as the sort of person who says "I'm not a racist, but. . .[then says something racist]".
The problem with #6: While true, it is entirely due to the misinformation and bullshit spread by people like you, and not a problem caused by actual, real feminists.
You just proved my point #5. Despite calmly laying down my observations without any hateful accusations, you are seemingly attacking me. "Misinformation and bullshit spread by people like you". I mean, I'm fine if you disagree with my points, but why resort to insults and personal attacks? He didn't attack you. He called you out on your exaggerated or misleading claims. Because Terrapin provided an example of your 'revised' claim doesn't mean that you would misrepresent any position and not be called out on it.
I am not a feminist and neither do I agree with everything feminists say. But much like any person with common sense I do understand when people make stupid claims which are based on an extreme opinions held by rare individuals of any group.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 16:32:39 GMT
You just proved my point #5. Despite calmly laying down my observations without any hateful accusations, you are seemingly attacking me. "Misinformation and bullshit spread by people like you". I mean, I'm fine if you disagree with my points, but why resort to insults and personal attacks? He didn't attack you. He called you out on your exaggerated or misleading claims. Because Terrapin provided an example of your 'revised' claim doesn't mean that you would misrepresent any position and not be called out on it.
I am not a feminist and neither do I agree with everything feminists say. But much like any person with common sense I do understand when people make stupid claims which are based on an extreme opinions held by rare individuals of any group.
"This entire post is unmitigated bullshit of the highest order. " "you don't make up bullshit based on your personal encounters" "Given the nonsense you spewed in this OP" "Given the incredibly weak attempts you make at arguing your point in the OP" "you come off as the sort of person who says "I'm not a racist, but. . .[then says something racist]". "the misinformation and bullshit spread by people like you," - backhanded insults are still insults. Instead of properly rebutting my points and countering them with the same calm, logical tone, this person tries to undermine my intelligence and takes a holier-than-thou stance implying that his opinion on the matter is a lot more valid than mine. This is the exact same tactics religious preachers use when you try to contradict them. |
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Post by faustus5 on Jul 6, 2018 19:38:01 GMT
You just proved my point #5. Despite calmly laying down my observations without any hateful accusations, you are seemingly attacking me. "Misinformation and bullshit spread by people like you". I mean, I'm fine if you disagree with my points, but why resort to insults and personal attacks? Okay, so your feelings were hurt. Sorry, but when people post deeply ignorant things while pretending to be rational, their bullshit needs to be called out. You had it coming.
Whine all you want, your entire OP has been refuted and will remain so until you can actually address my criticisms instead of crying like a baby because how I treated you. Case closed.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 20:15:37 GMT
You just proved my point #5. Despite calmly laying down my observations without any hateful accusations, you are seemingly attacking me. "Misinformation and bullshit spread by people like you". I mean, I'm fine if you disagree with my points, but why resort to insults and personal attacks? Okay, so your feelings were hurt. Sorry, but when people post deeply ignorant things while pretending to be rational, their bullshit needs to be called out. You had it coming.
Whine all you want, your entire OP has been refuted and will remain so until you can actually address my criticisms instead of crying like a baby because how I treated you. Case closed.
I don't need to refute them because you just proved my point. This has nothing to do with my feelings. You just proved that the moment someone says something contradictory to feminism, that person immediately can get attacked. As for your other points, they're all basically your opinions. They are neither more correct or less correct than what I posted. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 6, 2018 20:31:52 GMT
Okay, so your feelings were hurt. Sorry, but when people post deeply ignorant things while pretending to be rational, their bullshit needs to be called out. You had it coming.
Whine all you want, your entire OP has been refuted and will remain so until you can actually address my criticisms instead of crying like a baby because how I treated you. Case closed.
I don't need to refute them because you just proved my point. This has nothing to do with my feelings. You just proved that the moment someone says something contradictory to feminism, that person immediately can get attacked. As for your other points, they're all basically your opinions. They are neither more correct or less correct than what I posted. You need to refute them because he systematically destroyed your points. He showed exactly how you were wrong, lying or misinterpreting in all your points. And no, you didn't get attacked because you said something contradictory to feminism. You made stupid or ignorant claims about what you perceive is feminism. But now you can continue some more crying as your little feelings have been hurt beyond repair. |
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 20:50:22 GMT
I don't need to refute them because you just proved my point. This has nothing to do with my feelings. You just proved that the moment someone says something contradictory to feminism, that person immediately can get attacked. As for your other points, they're all basically your opinions. They are neither more correct or less correct than what I posted. You need to refute them because he systematically destroyed your points. He showed exactly how you were wrong, lying or misinterpreting in all your points. And no, you didn't get attacked because you said something contradictory to feminism. You made stupid or ignorant claims about what you perceive is feminism. But now you can continue some more crying as your little feelings have been hurt beyond repair. Uhmm... no. He basically said stuff like this: "The view you describe is held by a tiny minority of feminists who do not in any way represent the mainstream of what feminism says about men" which is pretty much just his opinion. There is no "destroying of points" here. He countered my stated opinions with his stated opinions. I could easily counter with something like "The view I describe is held by decent amount of feminists" which is no more backed by statistics than what he said, and in the end it will simply become a shouting match between the two of us spouting our own opinions. The fact that you think what I said was false and consider what he said as true, despite both of us pretty much just stating our opinions, already proves the kind of bias I was describing in my OP. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 6, 2018 21:02:12 GMT
You need to refute them because he systematically destroyed your points. He showed exactly how you were wrong, lying or misinterpreting in all your points. And no, you didn't get attacked because you said something contradictory to feminism. You made stupid or ignorant claims about what you perceive is feminism. But now you can continue some more crying as your little feelings have been hurt beyond repair. Uhmm... no. He basically said stuff like this: "The view you describe is held by a tiny minority of feminists who do not in any way represent the mainstream of what feminism says about men" which is pretty much just his opinion. There is no "destroying of points" here. He countered my stated opinions with his stated opinions. I could easily counter with something like "The view I describe is held by decent amount of feminists" which is no more backed by statistics than what he said, and in the end it will simply become a shouting match between the two of us spouting our own opinions. The fact that you think what I said was false and consider what he said as true, despite both of us pretty much just stating our opinions, already proves the kind of bias I was describing in my OP. Nopes, you are the one making the initial claims. You didn't even give any actual facts to substantiate your claims. What you pretty much did will easily be treated as misrepresentation of a position. After you misrepresented you were called on your misrepresentation. Now saying that his refutation of your misinterpretation is just his opinion doesn't take away the fact that you misrepresented the position of feminism.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 21:23:00 GMT
Uhmm... no. He basically said stuff like this: "The view you describe is held by a tiny minority of feminists who do not in any way represent the mainstream of what feminism says about men" which is pretty much just his opinion. There is no "destroying of points" here. He countered my stated opinions with his stated opinions. I could easily counter with something like "The view I describe is held by decent amount of feminists" which is no more backed by statistics than what he said, and in the end it will simply become a shouting match between the two of us spouting our own opinions. The fact that you think what I said was false and consider what he said as true, despite both of us pretty much just stating our opinions, already proves the kind of bias I was describing in my OP. Nopes, you are the one making the initial claims. You didn't even give any actual facts to substantiate your claims. What you pretty much did will easily be treated as misrepresentation of a position. After you misrepresented you were called on your misrepresentation. Now saying that his refutation of your misinterpretation is just his opinion doesn't take away the fact that you misrepresented the position of feminism.
Prove that I misrepresented it then. Because he certainly didn't provide proof of my misrepresentation. All he did was accuse me that I was wrong and what I was saying was bullshit, and you're acting as if the simple act of him disagreeing with me and calling me out is somehow already proof that I had misrepresented information. Right now all you're really doing is proving my points in the OP. You're immediately assuming that your position is correct and that I am wrong, without any evidence to back it up. For my part, I'm not even saying you're wrong, just that you have a different opinion. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 6, 2018 21:38:38 GMT
Nopes, you are the one making the initial claims. You didn't even give any actual facts to substantiate your claims. What you pretty much did will easily be treated as misrepresentation of a position. After you misrepresented you were called on your misrepresentation. Now saying that his refutation of your misinterpretation is just his opinion doesn't take away the fact that you misrepresented the position of feminism.
Prove that I misrepresented it then. Because he certainly didn't provide proof of my misrepresentation. All he did was accuse me that I was wrong and what I was saying was bullshit, and you're acting as if the simple act of him disagreeing with me and calling me out is somehow already proof that I had misrepresented information. Right now all you're really doing is proving my points in the OP. You're immediately assuming that your position is correct and that I am wrong, without any evidence to back it up. For my part, I'm not even saying you're wrong, just that you have a different opinion. All he did was not just accuse you that you were wrong but provide rational explanations that why were wrong. You have since made zero efforts to counter the points made by faustus5. You have been since crying that you were attacked and that it’s just your opinion which are different from others. Nopes, your claims about feminism are misleading as clearly explained by faustus5. |
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 22:48:28 GMT
I did not say there were "a lot" of them, at least not when compared to the overall population of feminists. I just said there were a number of them, meaning it's not just one or two of them saying it. I mean, how many Christians do you actually think believe that adulterers should be stoned? Because that's what I compared this to. Fair enough. But in which case the amount would be vanishingly small. But then you said " A lot of times, you'll get attacked if you disagree or outright contradict religious enthusiasts about anything regarding their religion. Doesn't matter how calm or logical your point is, if you disagree with their belief you're immediately labeled a sinner, an infidel, a heretic, or some other unflattering term. Same is true with feminism.." See what you did there? He did indeed. So now I know of one who, indeed, says as you suggested. Or that anyone could potentially say it, too. However I might add that "all faithists who post negatively, or disapprovingly about feminism on message boards potentially have hidden issues" is, in this context, just as equally valid and just as illuminating. Uhmm... Ok? I don't see how what I said about disagreeing with religion/feminism contradicts what I said earlier. *shrugs* |
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