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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 22:13:09 GMT
I thought I replied to this thread already. You should read the Joker debut story from 1940. I think it is a must read. There's a book Batman from the 30s to the 70s (maybe they updated it to the 80s) which included the Joker story. As for the Watchmen-I think the comic works better than the movie but it has a lot of pretentious BS. The pirate thing is one. The Outer Limits ending doesn't work at all IMO. And Rorschach's diary ending up being printed by a small press felt too comic-geeky to me. I think the ending should have been something like Deep State government agencies staging an attack to blame on the Watchmen as their usefulness had reached an end, or using blackmail against their relatives or the general public to keep them from trying to rebel against their dictates. It would have to be a joint-US-Russia conspiracy though--because the movie ending suggested the world would unite against Dr Manhattan despite him being a US creation. More ironic to suggest the world did unite-or rather the deep state did, to keep power. The Nixon stuff should have been removed. I have considered buying a collection of golden age Batman comics (I assume such a thing exists) if not just for the novelty of having the original appearances of the classic rogues. I bought the first Amazing Spiderman omnibus for that very reason. It's kind of neat flipping through and seeing the first appearance of Doc Ock, Sandman, Mysterio ECT.
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 26, 2019 5:47:47 GMT
Oh. And I read The Killing Joke last night in one sitting. A brief review... Pretty much everything about it was superb. I loved the art style. I love how it's grounded in the characters yet still over the top and surreal. The ambiguous ending was especially fantastic. And I liked the implication that Batman has also lost his mind due to the death of his parents only he refuses to acknowledge that fact. My only issues are limited to the Joker origin sections. I just could not see that pre-Joker Joker as the same character. Maybe it's because I'm so used to the movie versions. I don't know. I just couldn't make the connection. Especially since it was such a sudden transformation. And, his transformation is still pretty much attributed to the acid rather than the trauma, which undercuts the whole point of the story. Anyway. Great comic! Looking forward to The Long Halloween… Great! Happy you liked it. As for the Joker, Moore’s not saying that is definitely his backstory (I think); as the J-Man himself says (God, now I sound like the unbearable “Harley Quinn”), “Something like that [horrible past incident] happened to me, you know. I… I’m not exactly sure what it was. Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another… If I’m going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!” And I think it’s implied with how on-edge the pre-Joker Joker is even before he falls into the vat, that he was already halfway insane and it took the death of his wife and the fall in the vat to push him completely over. (Like Nicholson in just about everything, including when he’s playing the Joker!  ) In thinking about it now and reading what you’ve written, I think I like the comic even more than I originally thought. It really is superb. What do you think about the ending? Does Batman kill the Joker, or no? detour and I are both on the side that he does. Definitely let you know what you think of TLH. And be wary of spoilers! 
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 26, 2019 5:56:55 GMT
Also: does anyone else like the Joker’s last joke at the end? I read somewhere a while back that it’s from a comedian’s repertoire, but for the life of me I can’t find the source or the comedian now. Anyone know? It took me a while to get it, but it’s a pretty funny joke on its own (if, of course, told the right way), as well as a metaphor for Batman and the Joker’s relationship, as Moore intends it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 18:31:48 GMT
NalkarjThere's actually an afterword written by the artist where he says that he refuses to believe that it is the real backstory. So there's that too. I loved the ending joke. It was definately my favorite part. I especially love the fact that Batman actually laughs! Very cool. However... I don't think that Batman kills the Joker at the end if you look closely, you can see the headlights of what I assume is a police car coming towards them. We then see the light in the reflection of a puddle before it turns out, which (according to my interpretation) was meant to be a visual link to the joke (the flashlight turning out) and metaphorically confirms that Joker was right: Batman would never fully commit to helping him or be someone that Joker could trust... Perhaps because he isn't as compassionate as he pretends to be, perhaps because Joker was right and Batman too is half insane like him. Or knowing Moore, this is also probably some indictment of the criminal justice system... Or , most likely yet, I'm an English Major who is trained to see meanings in literature that aren't actually there. LOL. In any case, it's hard for me to think that Batman would take such drastic measures after offering to help him. Especially with the police as witnesses. I do believe it is meant to foreshadow that one day Batman will kill him though, just not then and there Also, I'm halfway through TLH! I'll post some thoughts later...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 18:36:52 GMT
Also, and perhaps CLINTON GREENE would know the answer to this... But why is there a dinosaur toy in the Batcave? There must be meaning to such a random detail...
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Post by Prime etc. on Feb 26, 2019 18:53:02 GMT
"Life is swell
in a padded cell
you can chase those blues away.
Change for gloom
for a padded room
and injections twice a day."
I got the Killing Joke when it came out.
I don't consider it the official back story--how can it be when none of Batman or the Joker's creators were involved in it?
There is a point though about the "women in refrigerators" aspect to the story. Considering how significant a character Barbara Gordon had been, to do that to the character was very extreme and probably too extreme to make the ending work. The cover itself is the POV of Barbara Gordon as well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 19:09:14 GMT
"Life is swell in a padded cell you can chase those blues away. Change for gloom for a padded room and injections twice a day." I got the Killing Joke when it came out. I don't consider it the official back story--how can it be when none of Batman or the Joker's creators were involved in it? There is a point though about the "women in refrigerators" aspect to the story. Considering how significant a character Barbara Gordon had been, to do that to the character was very extreme and probably too extreme to make the ending work. The cover itself is the POV of Barbara Gordon as well. I guess the character remained paralyzed in the comics after that though, right?
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 26, 2019 21:43:14 GMT
Nalkarj There's actually an afterword written by the artist where he says that he refuses to believe that it is the real backstory. So there's that too. I loved the ending joke. It was definately my favorite part. I especially love the fact that Batman actually laughs! Very cool. However... I don't think that Batman kills the Joker at the end if you look closely, you can see the headlights of what I assume is a police car coming towards them. We then see the light in the reflection of a puddle before it turns out, which (according to my interpretation) was meant to be a visual link to the joke (the flashlight turning out) and metaphorically confirms that Joker was right: Batman would never fully commit to helping him or be someone that Joker could trust... Perhaps because he isn't as compassionate as he pretends to be, perhaps because Joker was right and Batman too is half insane like him. Or knowing Moore, this is also probably some indictment of the criminal justice system... Or , most likely yet, I'm an English Major who is trained to see meanings in literature that aren't actually there. LOL. In any case, it's hard for me to think that Batman would take such drastic measures after offering to help him. Especially with the police as witnesses. I do believe it is meant to foreshadow that one day Batman will kill him though, just not then and there Also, I'm halfway through TLH! I'll post some thoughts later… It’s like Heath Ledger’s Joker explaining how he “got these scars”… Lordy, that’s a creepy part of that movie. As for the joke, I think it cuts both ways. Batman is obviously offering the Joker a chance at rehabilitation, at sanity, and the Joker is afraid to make that jump because the other man is insane as well. But it also holds that Batman is afraid to make the jump to insanity because he doesn’t believe he’s insane.
And Batman realizes it. That’s why he laughs. He has previously realized that their battle will only end when one kills the other. He has to come to terms with his insanity, accept the light bridge—and, of course, it breaks. That’s why I think the laughter stops there. Because, as you say, why would the cops turn off the headlight? They’d probably shine it on the two of them and say, “Come out with your hands up.” But they don’t feel the need to. The laughter stops.
Or so at least so I thought. The ambiguity is great. Yes, definitely fill us in on TLH!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 22:42:30 GMT
The Long Halloween is excellent so far! It's so.., noiry! I love the tone of it as well as the art and color pallete. The mystery has me intrigued. I feel like I know who the killer is... But maybe that's just a red herring. I'm also enjoying all of the villain cameos, though I can't help but wonder if it would've been better to just stick to a few and give them more meaningful roles. It definately expects you to have some level of familiarity with these characters because they are mostly just there for fan service. Not that that is a bad thing. It's actually a lot of fun. Surpringly, the Joker is really the only part I didn't throughly enjoy. His antics felt too zany and gratuitous for this story.
Just got to Indpendence Day. I hope to finish it soon... Btw, they skipped Easter! I thought that was odd.
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 26, 2019 22:43:56 GMT
@forceghostackbar , who do you think the killer is? You are Sherlackbar Holmes, after all!
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 26, 2019 22:44:50 GMT
I don’t think I ever realized they skipped Easter. That is weird.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 22:49:14 GMT
@forceghostackbar , who do you think the killer is? You are Sherlackbar Holmes, after all! Well, they go out of their way to make us suspect Dent and Falcone's daughter so I don't think it's them. My instinct tells me that it really is Calender Man I'm really not sure though. One thing I didn't note above is that the use of so many rogues just adds more characters to suspect. It strangely reminds me of the Who Shot Mr Burns episode of the Simpsons. Haha
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 26, 2019 22:58:30 GMT
^^^Amazing, Holmes! Let’s see if you’re right.
“Who Shot Mr. Burns?” is one of my favorite Simpsons episodes. Not only is it a hoot, it’s a genuinely great mystery. Someone I know who writes detective stories put it on his “top 10 mysteries of all time” list, in fact.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 23:02:39 GMT
^^^Amazing, Holmes! Let’s see if you’re right. “Who Shot Mr. Burns?” is one of my favorite Simpsons episodes. Not only is it a hoot, it’s a great mystery. Someone I know put it on his “top 10 mysteries of all time” list, in fact. It is indeed brilliant. One of my favorite episodes too.
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 26, 2019 23:06:20 GMT
^^^Amazing, Holmes! Let’s see if you’re right. “Who Shot Mr. Burns?” is one of my favorite Simpsons episodes. Not only is it a hoot, it’s a great mystery. Someone I know put it on his “top 10 mysteries of all time” list, in fact. It is indeed brilliant. One of my favorite episodes too. The sundial clue is über-brilliant. Ironically for a comedy show, it’s almost too bad that it becomes a joke at the end! 
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 5:47:58 GMT
Well. Finished Long Halloween. And... the first reveal I was okay with. The son's motivations don't really make a lot of sense. But I'll take it. This is mostly why I don't like twists. The goal of the writer is to shock you, leading to a lot of manipulation and ultimately limited explanation as to the why. What really bothered me though was the second reveal. His wife became a killer just to free Harvey up so that they could have kids and relax? I don't know. And I still don't understand why the son would take credit if he didn't do it. And why holidays? And does Harvey know what his wife did? So many questions! Anyway, I may not have loved the reveal, but I did love the comic! Twist aside it had superb characterization, particularly for Bats and Dent. I can really see how Nolan borrowed from this to make TDK. This may be my new all time favorite comic, supplanting Watchmen. |
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 28, 2019 4:32:29 GMT
Well. Finished Long Halloween. And... the first reveal I was okay with. The son's motivations don't really make a lot of sense. But I'll take it. This is mostly why I don't like twists. The goal of the writer is to shock you, leading to a lot of manipulation and ultimately limited explanation as to the why. What really bothered me though was the second reveal. His wife became a killer just to free Harvey up so that they could have kids and relax? I don't know. And I still don't understand why the son would take credit if he didn't do it. And why holidays? And does Harvey know what his wife did? So many questions! Anyway, I may not have loved the reveal, but I did love the comic! Twist aside it had superb characterization, particularly for Bats and Dent. I can really see how Nolan borrowed from this to make TDK. This may be my new all time favorite comic, supplanting Watchmen. Happy you loved it! It’s such a good one. I’ve got to read it, or at least the ending, again; I didn’t pick up on all the [very fair] points you made. As for twists, you’re right, I think, about lots of modern twists, which just mean to shock you without any regard for characterization or common sense. It’s like the end of After the Thin Man, in which the killer goes from a goodhearted guy to a raving homicidal loon in a matter of seconds. Or it’s like making Zuzu Bailey the Zodiac Killer. The manipulation (great word for it) just feels lazy and cheap and even kind of sleazy. But twists don’t have to be that way, and for me one of the biggest achievements is when they feel completely natural while being surprising. The best writers (Christie, Carr, Queen, etc.) during the Golden Age of Detective Fiction achieved that balance, but it’s not just limited to detective fiction: the best episodes of The Twilight Zone also feel completely natural and inevitable, arising out of character and story, while simultaneously surprising the audience. It’s very hard to do. I got the impression (someone can correct me if I’m wrong) that it’s supposed to be ambiguous as to which solution is correct. The dual (and duelling) solutions are no doubt a callback to Ellery Queen, who used them throughout his work—though he always clarified which solution of the two is accurate, which Loeb doesn’t do here. While the Mrs. Dent solution isn’t necessary true, I thought it was a kind of last twist of the knife, not to make us think that the first solution is absolutely wrong but just to make us doubt the surety of it. If that makes any sense. My impression was just that she cracked, believing wholeheartedly that Harvey was behind it and that therefore (in her own mind) she picked up where he “left off.” The cluing is first-class in the Alberto Falcone solution. The death of the coroner… It’s one of those great Golden Age-type clues, like the church bells in The Three Coffins (or the sundial in “Who Shot Mr. Burns”!), that’s in plain sight and should give the whole game away if we only thought about it. Great stuff. That solution, by the way, is in large part a reworking of Ellery Queen’s in The Tragedy of X—not that that’s a bad thing! By the way, did you like the Godfather references? I agree completely about all the villain cameos, which feel forced. I don’t want to dampen your spirits, but they feel even more forced in Hush. Loeb is a great writer, and I’ve no idea why he feels the need to do that. I’ll be interested to know what your take is on Dark Victory. It sorta-kinda-not-really-but-kinda (wow) answers some of your questions here, and while it’s not as—what’s the right word? Flashy?—as TLH, I think it’s Loeb’s cleanest plot, the one with the fewest flaws. And it manages to make Robin believable. That is enough to get Loeb’s name in the history books.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 18:37:02 GMT
Good points, Salz. I don't mean to completely trash the ending. Thinking about it more though, I almost wish they just went with Harvey as the killer . Of course it would've been absurdly obvious because we all know what he eventually becomes. But given that this is a Two Face origin story I would've accepted it. As for the Godfather stuff... Honestly I thought it was a little too blatant. There's just one too many homages in my opinion. Starting Dark Victory tonight! |
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 5, 2019 4:29:45 GMT
Definitely let us know what you think of DV, @forceghostackbar! It shares the title with, of all things, a ’30s Bette Davis melodrama—which no doubt Loeb knows, as he named the chapter-headings in Captain America: White after ’30s movies. But I don’t understand why exactly he decided that.
To be honest, I rather like the first solution—though I agree I could do without the second.
I’m not sure what I think of the Godfather references. I agreed with you right after I read it, but looking back on it, it’s almost shorthand to tell us who these characters are, but it’s an intelligent reference. Or so methinks, at least now.
Either way, a great comic.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2019 10:29:55 GMT
Absolutely. Dark Victory is a sequel to Long Halloween, so if you haven't read either of them then you should probably start with Halloween. Yes, but Long Hollow Victory is also a sequel to Dark Night Halloween ( it takes place the next morning ) Also Long Halloween is a sequel to batman year one right?
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