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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2019 16:53:09 GMT
None of that affects Jon’s reaction Of course. But I wasn't talking about Jon. I was talking about Rickon. The scene was portrayed as a torture and murder of a normal boy. When in actuality, it should have been portrayed as the torture and murder of a retarded, extremely inept boy. My criticism is of the contrived melodrama, that only a similarly retarded, extremely inept person would have fallen for. In other words, that scene was stupid. [I was talking about Jon and Sansa. What a little boy who is being used as bait could have done is pretty irrelevant. |
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Post by movieliker on May 8, 2019 16:58:50 GMT
Of course. But I wasn't talking about Jon. I was talking about Rickon. The scene was portrayed as a torture and murder of a normal boy. When in actuality, it should have been portrayed as the torture and murder of a retarded, extremely inept boy. My criticism is of the contrived melodrama, that only a similarly retarded, extremely inept person would have fallen for. In other words, that scene was stupid. [I was talking about Jon and Sansa. What a little boy who is being used as bait could have done is pretty irrelevant. We are talking abou two different things here. You are talking about Jon and Sansa. I am talking about that ridiculously stupid scene. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2019 17:15:16 GMT
[I was talking about Jon and Sansa. What a little boy who is being used as bait could have done is pretty irrelevant. We are talking abou two different things here. You are talking about Jon and Sansa. I am talking about that ridiculously stupid scene. ok |
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Post by movieliker on May 8, 2019 18:07:53 GMT
We are talking abou two different things here. You are talking about Jon and Sansa. I am talking about that ridiculously stupid scene. ok I wasn't disagreeing with you when I started complaining about that one scene. I hate contrived melodrama based purely on emotion that is either stupid and/or illogical. I see it as an insult to the viewer. Like most horror movies. Most horror movies are so stupid I cannot watch them. Only a complete imbecule would be frightened by them. Or, the viewer is willing to ignore all logic in order to experience and enjoy being frightened. That is the way I saw that one scene. So stupid and illogical, nobody with any sense could enjoy it. A pathetic attempt to siphon horror and sadness. Stupid. |
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 8, 2019 18:10:52 GMT
In the books Littlefinger was made Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, his grandfather was a Bravosi sellsword if I recall correctly. Jaime offered Bronn his pick of castles when the war was over.
Yes, but Littlefinger's manners are very refined and he had already assumed master of coins role in Robert Baratheon's rule for many years. Littlefinger is referred to as Lord in the beginning of the show. To the best of my memory, his father was given Fingers (in eastern coast) for his services and so littlefinger's father's profession had changed from swellsword to minute lord before littlefinger's rise. Further, Harrenhal was accursed. The main issue with Bronn is that he lacks any refinement whatsoever. Sure he can be made Lord of Harrenhal but the Reach would be too big. One can still make him so but it will severly displease people of that region as well as the nobility of that region. You're correct about Lord Baelish, but at the same time he was the most notorious whoremonger in the capitol. Janos Slynt was a butcher's son when Tywin made him Lord of Harrenhal. Ser Davos was born in Fleabottom as a crabber and was made a lord in the Stormlands and eventually Hand of the King. The aristocracy was permeable in Westeros.
I think Bronn would be able to handle the other Lords, he's rude and crude sometimes but competent, and a bad man to cross and gives off that air when he needs to. Jaime made him essentially a general and he directed the siege of Riverrun over the heirs of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (in the show) Walder Frey.
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Post by movieliker on May 8, 2019 18:21:11 GMT
In the books Littlefinger was made Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, his grandfather was a Bravosi sellsword if I recall correctly. Jaime offered Bronn his pick of castles when the war was over.
Yes, but Littlefinger's manners are very refined and he had already assumed master of coins role in Robert Baratheon's rule for many years. Littlefinger is referred to as Lord in the beginning of the show. To the best of my memory, his father was given Fingers (in eastern coast) for his services and so littlefinger's father's profession had changed from swellsword to minute lord before littlefinger's rise. Further, Harrenhal was accursed. The main issue with Bronn is that he lacks any refinement whatsoever. Sure he can be made Lord of Harrenhal but the Reach would be too big. One can still make him so but it will severly displease people of that region as well as the nobility of that region. Your argument seems be putting appearances above substance. Appearing impressive only goes so far. Sooner or later one needs to back up what they appear to be suggesting. Bronn can back it up. Actions speak louder than words. If one's actions speak loudly enough, one needs never --- to even speak. (Hence the term "man of action".) |
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 8, 2019 18:39:20 GMT
Nothing you said contradicted me so you’re using the word “wrong” wrong. Again, any good strategist will state the obvious when the obvious is ignored and Jon was ignoring it and did the flat out dumbest thing ever for a general to do. Sansa was right. Sansa has no reason to trust Jon’s military knowledge since he had none. If they had sat there and waited for the Vale to save the day he still would have ran out to same dead boy walking Rickon. This is the thing people are wrong about regarding Sansa. For some reason she is supposed to go full retard and think like a Stark does when all of her training was from people more clever than them. Ramsay was going to lose no matter what but her way would save the North and Jon’s way was to doom it but get all the credit solely off bravery points. The Battle at Winterfell against the zombies was the first time he ignored his emotions to complete the mission although he couldn’t actually get to the NK. It was obvious Rickon had no fighting or athletic skills. Which is hard to accept being that back then every boy started training with sword --- and bow and arrows, at a young age. Rickon had such an advantage. Ramsay never started shooting until Rickon was so far away. All Rickon had to do was watch the arrows being fired and dodge them. Those shots took a good 5 seconds from release to landing. Any boy half skilled in athletics or sports could have caught those arrows. Rickon could have walked to safety. Running in a straight line and never looking back was retarded. Unless of course Rickon had spent enough time with Ramsey he realized that if he deviated from Ramsey's expectations, Ramsey might change the 'rules' because Rickon 'cheated' and have his archers fire so Rickon would have a thousand arrows coming at him, not just one.
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Post by Aj_June on May 8, 2019 18:48:45 GMT
Yes, but Littlefinger's manners are very refined and he had already assumed master of coins role in Robert Baratheon's rule for many years. Littlefinger is referred to as Lord in the beginning of the show. To the best of my memory, his father was given Fingers (in eastern coast) for his services and so littlefinger's father's profession had changed from swellsword to minute lord before littlefinger's rise. Further, Harrenhal was accursed. The main issue with Bronn is that he lacks any refinement whatsoever. Sure he can be made Lord of Harrenhal but the Reach would be too big. One can still make him so but it will severly displease people of that region as well as the nobility of that region. You're correct about Lord Baelish, but at the same time he was the most notorious whoremonger in the capitol. Janos Slynt was a butcher's son when Tywin made him Lord of Harrenhal. Ser Davos was born in Fleabottom as a crabber and was made a lord in the Stormlands and eventually Hand of the King. The aristocracy was permeable in Westeros.
I think Bronn would be able to handle the other Lords, he's rude and crude sometimes but competent, and a bad man to cross and gives off that air when he needs to. Jaime made him essentially a general and he directed the siege of Riverrun over the heirs of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (in the show) Walder Frey.
I think the comparison between The Reach & Harrenhal is inappropriate. Holding both of them implies very different things. Holding The Reach implies having many minor and major Lords under your command while holding Harrenhal (which has a history of being held by minor Houses since Iron Born king was defeated) doesn't imply much. In fact, Harrenhal has never even been repaired since it was raosted by the first Targaryen ruler. Holding Harrenhall is essentially a loss for anyone who holds it because it is so large that it cannot be manned and thus does not even provide a strategic advantage as a castle for holding siege. The argument here is not that low borns can't be made Lords but that something of the importance of holding the most populous region could be given to a person who can't be trusted and who has no connection to that region.
Also, sure some people do get promoted above their ranks during the times of conflicts. The time of the battle of five kings was a time of conflict but one of the assumptions underlying Dany's rule over Westeros is that once she wins it then it will be a time of less conflicts.
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Post by movieliker on May 8, 2019 18:55:40 GMT
It was obvious Rickon had no fighting or athletic skills. Which is hard to accept being that back then every boy started training with sword --- and bow and arrows, at a young age. Rickon had such an advantage. Ramsay never started shooting until Rickon was so far away. All Rickon had to do was watch the arrows being fired and dodge them. Those shots took a good 5 seconds from release to landing. Any boy half skilled in athletics or sports could have caught those arrows. Rickon could have walked to safety. Running in a straight line and never looking back was retarded. Unless of course Rickon had spent enough time with Ramsey he realized that if he deviated from Ramsey's expectations, Ramsey might change the 'rules' because Rickon 'cheated' and have his archers fire so Rickon would have a thousand arrows coming at him, not just one. Nobody should just give up because their opponent might change strategies. If Ramsey changes strategies, then Rickon should adjust. Running in a straight line and never looking back, was no strategy. At the very least he was buying time and distance. They had those wooden tepee things. He could have used those things for cover. As I said before, any kid with average athletic skills could have caught an arrow at that distance. At least bat it down. Time was limited for Ramsey. Sooner or later Jon and Rickon would meet. And they would be out of range. (I can't remember if he did. But regardless, if Jon had brought a shield . . . The advantage was Rickon's to lose. Essentially the advantage was squandered. But this is purely academic. That scene was stupid. Melodramatic contrivance purely for emotional effect, with no logic whatsoever.) The biggest threat was Ramsey saddling up and chasing after Rickon. (One can dodge arrows at a distance. But no human can outrun a horse.) But as I said before, you don't just give up because your opponent may change stategies. |
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Post by Aj_June on May 8, 2019 19:06:02 GMT
None of that affects Jon’s reaction Of course. But I wasn't talking about Jon. I was talking about Rickon. The scene was portrayed as a torture and murder of a normal boy. When in actuality, it should have been portrayed as the torture and murder of a retarded, extremely inept boy. My criticism is of the contrived melodrama, that only a similarly retarded, extremely inept person would have fallen for. In other words, that scene was stupid. I think you don't know what "retarded" means. And you make a lot of unsupported assumptions. Rickon was never shown as training like Bran was because Rickon was very young. In fact he was just 6 years old when he he was forced to flee from his home after Iron Born attacked his home. The rest of his life was spent hiding and not showing himself to the world than training and he died at the age of 11. Calling a scared boy facing death as 'retarded' is not just speaking being unaware of what retarded means but also immature.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2019 19:19:40 GMT
It would be impossible for Bronn to lead the Reach.
The show indicated House Tarley is Lord Paramount but one can assume that all kingdoms are in complete disarray and if Cersei continues to lead she won’t care.
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Post by movieliker on May 8, 2019 19:20:18 GMT
Of course. But I wasn't talking about Jon. I was talking about Rickon. The scene was portrayed as a torture and murder of a normal boy. When in actuality, it should have been portrayed as the torture and murder of a retarded, extremely inept boy. My criticism is of the contrived melodrama, that only a similarly retarded, extremely inept person would have fallen for. In other words, that scene was stupid. I think you don't know what "retarded" means. And you make a lot of unsupported assumptions. Rickon was never shown as training like Bran was because Rickon was very young. In fact he was just 6 years old when he he was forced to flee from his home after Iron Born attacked his home. The rest of his life was spent hiding and not showing himself to the world than training and he died at the age of 11. Calling a scared boy facing death as 'retarded' is not just speaking being unaware of what retarded means but also immature. I meant to use it like this; "Retarded - less advanced and skilled in social, mental and/or physical development, than is usual for one's age, very foolish or stupid"Regardless of the reason Rickon was retarded, he was. But you bring up details I wasn't aware of. So thank you for that. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2019 19:22:58 GMT
Of course. But I wasn't talking about Jon. I was talking about Rickon. The scene was portrayed as a torture and murder of a normal boy. When in actuality, it should have been portrayed as the torture and murder of a retarded, extremely inept boy. My criticism is of the contrived melodrama, that only a similarly retarded, extremely inept person would have fallen for. In other words, that scene was stupid. I think you don't know what "retarded" means. And you make a lot of unsupported assumptions. Rickon was never shown as training like Bran was because Rickon was very young. In fact he was just 6 years old when he he was forced to flee from his home after Iron Born attacked his home. The rest of his life was spent hiding and not showing himself to the world than training and he died at the age of 11. Calling a scared boy facing death as 'retarded' is not just speaking being unaware of what retarded means but also immature. But Rickon could have simply swatted the arrows away... |
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Post by Aj_June on May 8, 2019 19:39:27 GMT
It would be impossible for Bronn to lead the Reach. The show indicated House Tarley is Lord Paramount but one can assume that all kingdoms are in complete disarray and if Cersei continues to lead she won’t care. Now the only thing that I desire is to see is our good old friend Samwise Gamgee Tarly to be called Lord Tarly, The Lord Paramount of the Reach. 
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Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 8, 2019 19:46:03 GMT
You're correct about Lord Baelish, but at the same time he was the most notorious whoremonger in the capitol. Janos Slynt was a butcher's son when Tywin made him Lord of Harrenhal. Ser Davos was born in Fleabottom as a crabber and was made a lord in the Stormlands and eventually Hand of the King. The aristocracy was permeable in Westeros.
I think Bronn would be able to handle the other Lords, he's rude and crude sometimes but competent, and a bad man to cross and gives off that air when he needs to. Jaime made him essentially a general and he directed the siege of Riverrun over the heirs of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (in the show) Walder Frey.
I think the comparison between The Reach & Harrenhal is inappropriate. Holding both of them implies very different things. Holding The Reach implies having many minor and major Lords under your command while holding Harrenhal (which has a history of being held by minor Houses since Iron Born king was defeated) doesn't imply much. In fact, Harrenhal has never even been repaired since it was raosted by the first Targaryen ruler. Holding Harrenhall is essentially a loss for anyone who holds it because it is so large that it cannot be manned and thus does not even provide a strategic advantage as a castle for holding siege. The argument here is not that low borns can't be made Lords but that something of the importance of holding the most populous region could be given to a person who can't be trusted and who has no connection to that region.
Also, sure some people do get promoted above their ranks during the times of conflicts. The time of the battle of five kings was a time of conflict but one of the assumptions underlying Dany's rule over Westeros is that once she wins it then it will be a time of less conflicts.
My point was Bronn would have reason to believe he could be elevated and could probably manage his estates provided he had the backing of the Crown, in this case the Hand of the Queen. Bronn did seem to make a decent impression on Tywin and Doran.
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Post by movieliker on May 8, 2019 19:52:30 GMT
I think the comparison between The Reach & Harrenhal is inappropriate. Holding both of them implies very different things. Holding The Reach implies having many minor and major Lords under your command while holding Harrenhal (which has a history of being held by minor Houses since Iron Born king was defeated) doesn't imply much. In fact, Harrenhal has never even been repaired since it was raosted by the first Targaryen ruler. Holding Harrenhall is essentially a loss for anyone who holds it because it is so large that it cannot be manned and thus does not even provide a strategic advantage as a castle for holding siege. The argument here is not that low borns can't be made Lords but that something of the importance of holding the most populous region could be given to a person who can't be trusted and who has no connection to that region.
Also, sure some people do get promoted above their ranks during the times of conflicts. The time of the battle of five kings was a time of conflict but one of the assumptions underlying Dany's rule over Westeros is that once she wins it then it will be a time of less conflicts.
My point was Bronn would have reason to believe he could be elevated and could probably manage his estates provided he had the backing of the Crown, in this case the Hand of the Queen. Bronn did seem to make a decent impression on Tywin and Doran.
I don't understand the people who are disagreeing with you. It seems so obvious to me. |
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Marendil
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@marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 8, 2019 19:57:06 GMT
Unless of course Rickon had spent enough time with Ramsey he realized that if he deviated from Ramsey's expectations, Ramsey might change the 'rules' because Rickon 'cheated' and have his archers fire so Rickon would have a thousand arrows coming at him, not just one. Nobody should just give up because their opponent might change strategies. If Ramsey changes strategies, then Rickon should adjust. Running in a straight line and never looking back, was no strategy. At the very least he was buying time and distance. They had those wooden tepee things. He could have used those things for cover. As I said before, any kid with average athletic skills could have caught an arrow at that distance. At least bat it down. Time was limited for Ramsey. Sooner or later Jon and Rickon would meet. And they would be out of range. (I can't remember if he did. But regardless, if Jon had brought a shield . . . The advantage was Rickon's to lose. Essentially the advantage was squandered. But this is purely academic. That scene was stupid. Melodramatic contrivance purely for emotional effect, with no logic whatsoever.) The biggest threat was Ramsey saddling up and chasing after Rickon. (One can dodge arrows at a distance. But no human can outrun a horse.) But as I said before, you don't just give up because your opponent may change stategies. The biggest threat to Rickon was that Ramsey commanded hundreds of archers who could loose at a rate of about one every five to ten seconds, getting out of their range as soon as possible was his best chance of survival.
If it was so easy to catch arrows in flight why did that not become a common occurrence in the hundreds of years archers were employed on battlefields?
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Post by movieliker on May 8, 2019 20:23:19 GMT
Nobody should just give up because their opponent might change strategies. If Ramsey changes strategies, then Rickon should adjust. Running in a straight line and never looking back, was no strategy. At the very least he was buying time and distance. They had those wooden tepee things. He could have used those things for cover. As I said before, any kid with average athletic skills could have caught an arrow at that distance. At least bat it down. Time was limited for Ramsey. Sooner or later Jon and Rickon would meet. And they would be out of range. (I can't remember if he did. But regardless, if Jon had brought a shield . . . The advantage was Rickon's to lose. Essentially the advantage was squandered. But this is purely academic. That scene was stupid. Melodramatic contrivance purely for emotional effect, with no logic whatsoever.) The biggest threat was Ramsey saddling up and chasing after Rickon. (One can dodge arrows at a distance. But no human can outrun a horse.) But as I said before, you don't just give up because your opponent may change stategies. The biggest threat to Rickon was that Ramsey commanded hundreds of archers who could loose at a rate of about one every five to ten seconds, getting out of their range as soon as possible was his best chance of survival.
If it was so easy to catch arrows in flight why did that not become a common occurrence in the hundreds of years archers were employed on battlefields? Because shooting arching arrows over 1-200 yards was something nobody did when trying to hit one fleeing person. It worked well on the battlefield because opposing armies were distracted by fighting on the battlefield. But one person fleeing on an empty field is a waste of time. AJ June brought up a good point. Rickon was only 11. And he spent his life hiding, not training. So consistent with my original assertion, he was basically retarded. At least his athletic and fighting skills were. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2019 20:45:18 GMT
It would be impossible for Bronn to lead the Reach. The show indicated House Tarley is Lord Paramount but one can assume that all kingdoms are in complete disarray and if Cersei continues to lead she won’t care. Now the only thing that I desire is to see is our good old friend Samwise Gamgee Tarly to be called Lord Tarly, The Lord Paramount of the Reach. Right now he is and they have no record of him being up North although Oldtown May have reported him. However I can’t imagine Cersei being in good terms with the Maesters given Qyburn is her Hand and she blew up the church they adhere to. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2019 20:47:08 GMT
The biggest threat to Rickon was that Ramsey commanded hundreds of archers who could loose at a rate of about one every five to ten seconds, getting out of their range as soon as possible was his best chance of survival.
If it was so easy to catch arrows in flight why did that not become a common occurrence in the hundreds of years archers were employed on battlefields? Because shooting arching arrows over 1-200 yards was something nobody did when trying to hit one fleeing person. It worked well on the battlefield because opposing armies were distracted by fighting on the battlefield. But one person fleeing on an empty field is a waste of time. AJ June brought up a good point. Rickon was only 11. And he spent his life hiding, not training. So consistent with my original assertion, he was basically retarded. At least his athletic and fighting skills were. he was only 4 or 5 when he fled Winterfell. Was a wildling woman supposed to train him? |
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