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Post by charzhino on May 9, 2019 15:01:20 GMT
Not really its a simple obsveration that doesnt need rewatch. Thanos stopped Gamora killing herself - but killed her anyway. Very next movie Clint is stopping Natasha from killng herself all the way. How can both be worthy of the soul gem - unless Thanos didnt know the rules of the game properly Because the altar is at the bottom of the cliff, not at the top. Wasnt mentioned by Red Skull
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 9, 2019 15:03:41 GMT
The logical conclusion has been pointed out to you several times now. Did Thanos know the rules of the soul gem sacrfice yes or no.
If yes, why didnt he allow gamora to kill herself - after all its a soul for a soul at the end of the day according to you, intentions dont matter
If no, then the rules obviously werent explained clearly because Clint does the exact same opposite action of Thanos yet still gets awarded the gem
That's the opposite of what I said.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 9, 2019 15:04:27 GMT
Because the altar is at the bottom of the cliff, not at the top. Wasnt mentioned by Red Skull No, but it's what transpired on film. You're actively arguing what we saw onscreen right now.
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Post by charzhino on May 9, 2019 15:18:49 GMT
Wasnt mentioned by Red Skull No, but it's what transpired on film. You're actively arguing what we saw onscreen right now. So how did Thanos/Clint know they had to throw Gamora/Widow down the cliff and this was the only valid way that a sacrafice would count? None of them them have ever been to Vormir or know anything about the rules
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 9, 2019 15:24:53 GMT
No, but it's what transpired on film. You're actively arguing what we saw onscreen right now. So how did Thanos/Clint know they had to throw Gamora/Widow down the cliff and this was the only valid way that a sacrafice would count? None of them them have ever been to Vormir or know anything about the rules Who said they knew? Why did they need to know for it to work? Thanos wanted to make sure he was the one sacrificing Gamora while Clint didn't want to sacrifice Widow at all. What we know is in both instances, the receiver of the stone lost a soul they loved over that cliff. I love how long it takes you to come up with this tuff. I'm picturing you sitting there, staring at your monitor trying to find a way to outsmart the established narrative somehow.
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Post by Lord Death Man on May 9, 2019 15:33:53 GMT
Does the stone bearer use the word "worthy" when explaining the conditions under which it can be acquired? I understood his meaning to be that you have to fully comprehend what you are doing when you use the stone. Essentially, the stone believes that if you experience the loss of someone you love, you will have no choice but to be mindful when using it to take lives.
The circumstances under which the sacrifice is made don't seem to matter strictly. This scenario isn't much more complicated than Thunder Dome; two men enter; one man leaves. Whether the sacrifice is murdered or commits suicide doesn't seem to matter so long as the surviving individual is perceived to have loved the deceased. The stone has no caveats regarding a willing or unwilling sacrifice.
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Post by charzhino on May 9, 2019 15:37:43 GMT
Thanos wanted to make sure he was the one sacrificing Gamora while Clint didn't want to sacrifice Widow at all. Thanos wanted to make sure because otherwise he may not have recieved the gem if Gamora killed herself as the rules were unclear to him. Writers didnt make it clear enough that a) The person killed has to be specifically thrown off the cliff b) it doesnt matter if the person to be killed either kills themselves willingly or unwillingly Bad writing as usual from Russos
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Post by charzhino on May 9, 2019 15:39:17 GMT
The circumstances under which the sacrifice is made don't seem to matter strictly. This scenario isn't much more complicated than Thunder Dome; two men enter; one man leaves. Whether the sacrifice is murdered or commits suicide doesn't seem to matter so long as the surviving individual is perceived to have loved the deceased. The stone has no caveats regarding a willing or unwilling sacrifice. If thats the case I just need 1 simple question answering Why does Thanos not allow Gamora to kill herself when she tries
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 9, 2019 15:42:01 GMT
Thanos wanted to make sure he was the one sacrificing Gamora while Clint didn't want to sacrifice Widow at all. Thanos wanted to make sure because otherwise he may not have recieved the gem if Gamora killed herself as the rules were unclear to him. Writers didnt make it clear enough that a) The person killed has to be specifically thrown off the cliff b) it doesnt matter if the person to be killed either kills themselves willingly or unwillingly Bad writing as usual from Russos I was also thinking the Red Skull should've pulled out a 150 page document and gone into explicit detail on the inner workings and motivations of this magical space rock. The narrative desperately needed it. But I guess that's just us, as everyone else seems to understand these two scenes perfectly fine.
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Post by Lord Death Man on May 9, 2019 15:45:07 GMT
Thanos wanted to make sure he was the one sacrificing Gamora while Clint didn't want to sacrifice Widow at all. Thanos wanted to make sure because otherwise he may not have recieved the gem if Gamora killed herself as the rules were unclear to him. Writers didnt make it clear enough that a) The person killed has to be specifically thrown off the cliff b) it doesnt matter if the person to be killed either kills themselves willingly or unwillingly Bad writing as usual from Russos Strictly speaking the Russo brothers didn't write the script. The scene accomplished its goal in both cases for casual viewers. The movie goer is made to understand that someone has to die in order for the stone to be acquired. The specifics of how exactly this has to occur falls under a certain pedanticism that isn't needed to enjoy the basic mechanics of the scene. This explains why this so-called flaw was not bought to our attention immediately after you saw the film and required deeper contemplation and additional time on your part to perceive.
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Post by blockbusted on May 9, 2019 15:57:24 GMT
Thanos wanted to make sure because otherwise he may not have recieved the gem if Gamora killed herself as the rules were unclear to him. Writers didnt make it clear enough that a) The person killed has to be specifically thrown off the cliff b) it doesnt matter if the person to be killed either kills themselves willingly or unwillingly Bad writing as usual from Russos I was also thinking the Red Skull should've pulled out a 150 page document and gone into explicit detail on the inner workings and motivations of this magical space rock. The narrative desperately needed it. But I guess that's just us, as everyone else seems to understand these two scenes perfectly fine. charzhino once used 'Fant4stic' as a positive example of solving the issue of a multi-ethnic sidekick for white leads even though casting Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm was a result of utter laziness. I think I now know why he used that film as a positive example. After all, it's made almost entirely out of exposition, which he seems to believe what a good film should be like.
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Post by kuatorises on May 9, 2019 17:06:14 GMT
Red Skull states "To ensure whoever possesses it understands its power, the stone demands a sacrifice... In order to take the stone, you must lose that which you love. A soul... for a soul."
Thanos willingly has to sacrafice Gamora against her wishes in Infinity War.
But in ENDGAME the mechanics of the scene are botched. The whole point is someone has to, through a concious choice, actively give up the person they love. Hawekeye and Black Widow where both tryng to stop each other from killing themselves. How can either person then be worthy enough of commanding the soul gem because they were clearly not willing to make the sacrafice needed? Even right at the end when both are dangling off the cliff, Clint is not letting go. It takes Natasha to bounce her legs off the cliff and fall.
Another badly written scene in Endgame or am I missing something? The stone demands a sacrifice - Black Widow sacrificed herself You must lose what you love - Hawkeye lost Black Widow A soul for a soul - Black Widow's soul for the soul stone All requirements seem to have been met, so not sure how you're confused about this. The real question is what happens when only a single person comes to claim the stone? The leave and bring back someone to kill. What I want to know is how the Red Skull ended up involved.
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havenless
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Post by havenless on May 9, 2019 17:19:01 GMT
Because the altar is at the bottom of the cliff, not at the top. Wasnt mentioned by Red Skull He’s a spectre of few words.
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Post by Skaathar on May 9, 2019 19:27:11 GMT
"stone demands a sacrifice..." - Black Widow was the sacrifice. Check.
"In order to take the stone, you must lose that which you love." - Hawkeye lost Black Widow whom he loved. Check.
"A soul... for a soul." - Black Widow's soul in exchange for the soul stone. Check.
Seems to me all the requirements were met. Not sure what you're bitching about.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 9, 2019 19:39:46 GMT
The logical conclusion has been pointed out to you several times now. Did Thanos know the rules of the soul gem sacrfice yes or no.
If yes, why didnt he allow gamora to kill herself - after all its a soul for a soul at the end of the day according to you, intentions dont matter
If no, then the rules obviously werent explained clearly because Clint does the exact same opposite action of Thanos yet still gets awarded the gem
Red Skull literally shows Thanos the pit. The pit is where the sacrifice must go. Gamora killing herself doesn't count unless she were to jump. It's like in basketball. If the ball doesn't go in the net, you don't get a point.
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Post by Lord Death Man on May 9, 2019 20:25:04 GMT
"stone demands a sacrifice..." - Black Widow was the sacrifice. Check. "In order to take the stone, you must lose that which you love." - Hawkeye lost Black Widow whom he loved. Check. "A soul... for a soul." - Black Widow's soul in exchange for the soul stone. Check. Seems to me all the requirements were met. Not sure what you're bitching about. It's his audition to join L7.
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Post by sdrew13163 on May 9, 2019 22:32:25 GMT
I suppose you could argue that, but my biggest beef with this scene is that it pilfers the emotions of a movie that released just one year ago in an identical scenario.
Like, seriously, everything is the exact same in essence. They get there, are shocked at what must be done, then a slow-motion montage of someone going over the cliffside with the SAME music and essentially the exact same shot of the spire with the clouds swirling at the top and shooting blue light into the sky.
And then it all ends with an identical shot of the new "dead" (one's already been walked back) character sprawled out with a pool of blood around the head.
They stole their own scene. They couldn't come up with something else? Really?
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 9, 2019 22:44:43 GMT
I suppose you could argue that, but my biggest beef with this scene is that it pilfers the emotions of a movie that released just one year ago in an identical scenario. Like, seriously, everything is the exact same in essence. They get there, are shocked at what must be done, then a slow-motion montage of someone going over the cliffside with the SAME music and essentially the exact same shot of the spire with the clouds swirling at the top and shooting blue light into the sky. And then it all ends with an identical shot of the new "dead" (one's already been walked back) character sprawled out with a pool of blood around the head. They stole their own scene. They couldn't come up with something else? Really? I gotta say, I like the spin they put on the sacrifice. Whereas Thanos sacrifices someone else for his own goals, Widow and Hawkeye are bent on sacrificing themselves for the good of others.
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Post by sdrew13163 on May 9, 2019 23:09:25 GMT
I suppose you could argue that, but my biggest beef with this scene is that it pilfers the emotions of a movie that released just one year ago in an identical scenario. Like, seriously, everything is the exact same in essence. They get there, are shocked at what must be done, then a slow-motion montage of someone going over the cliffside with the SAME music and essentially the exact same shot of the spire with the clouds swirling at the top and shooting blue light into the sky. And then it all ends with an identical shot of the new "dead" (one's already been walked back) character sprawled out with a pool of blood around the head. They stole their own scene. They couldn't come up with something else? Really? I gotta say, I like the spin they put on the sacrifice. Whereas Thanos sacrifices someone else for his own goals, Widow and Hawkeye are bent on sacrificing themselves for the good of others. That’s a good point and it is a different perspective from the standpoint of the story, but the scene itself is the same. The visuals, music, and end result are the same. They could have changed it in a number of different ways that would have been just as effective if not more so.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 23:40:41 GMT
I suppose you could argue that, but my biggest beef with this scene is that it pilfers the emotions of a movie that released just one year ago in an identical scenario. Like, seriously, everything is the exact same in essence. They get there, are shocked at what must be done, then a slow-motion montage of someone going over the cliffside with the SAME music and essentially the exact same shot of the spire with the clouds swirling at the top and shooting blue light into the sky. And then it all ends with an identical shot of the new "dead" (one's already been walked back) character sprawled out with a pool of blood around the head. They stole their own scene. They couldn't come up with something else? Really? As much as I love this movie I agree they should've changed the look and music of the scene a bit because the impact of Natasha's death was somewhat cushioned for me because I found myself chuckling a bit when I heard the same music from IW right after.
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