remusgrey
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Post by remusgrey on May 10, 2019 2:41:55 GMT
I suppose you could argue that, but my biggest beef with this scene is that it pilfers the emotions of a movie that released just one year ago in an identical scenario. Like, seriously, everything is the exact same in essence. They get there, are shocked at what must be done, then a slow-motion montage of someone going over the cliffside with the SAME music and essentially the exact same shot of the spire with the clouds swirling at the top and shooting blue light into the sky. And then it all ends with an identical shot of the new "dead" (one's already been walked back) character sprawled out with a pool of blood around the head. They stole their own scene. They couldn't come up with something else? Really? I honestly have to agree here. It felt like a rehash of the scene in IW, though it's hard for me to decide on which had a better impact.
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 3:41:58 GMT
Red Skull states "To ensure whoever possesses it understands its power, the stone demands a sacrifice... In order to take the stone, you must lose that which you love. A soul... for a soul."
Thanos willingly has to sacrafice Gamora against her wishes in Infinity War.
But in ENDGAME the mechanics of the scene are botched. The whole point is someone has to, through a concious choice, actively give up the person they love. Hawekeye and Black Widow where both tryng to stop each other from killing themselves. How can either person then be worthy enough of commanding the soul gem because they were clearly not willing to make the sacrafice needed? Even right at the end when both are dangling off the cliff, Clint is not letting go. It takes Natasha to bounce her legs off the cliff and fall.
Another badly written scene in Endgame or am I missing something? You're absolutely correct. When I was watching that scene and Black Widow was trying to jump over the cliff, my 1st thought was that shouldn't count as a sacrifice because Hawkeye isn't making the choice to sacrifice Black Widow like Thanos made the choice to sacrifice Gamora. This is just another example of lazy and contrived writing in MCU movies.
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 3:45:11 GMT
The stone demands a sacrifice - Black Widow sacrificed herself You must lose what you love - Hawkeye lost Black Widow A soul for a soul - Black Widow's soul for the soul stone All requirements seem to have been met, so not sure how you're confused about this. The real question is what happens when only a single person comes to claim the stone? Then why does Thanos prevent Gamora killing herself? Russos are going back on what happened in their last movie It's another example of inconsistent writing in MCU movies. It's just like in The First Avenger where Steve Rogers is the 1st trainee in 17 years to be smart enough to figure out how to get the flag down from the flagpole and then just a few minutes later is too dumb to figure out that a grenade taken from a box labeled "Training Grenades" and tossed by the Colonel at his own trainees not in the middle of a battlefield but in the middle of an army training base is a fake grenade.
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 3:51:49 GMT
Thanos wanted to make sure because otherwise he may not have recieved the gem if Gamora killed herself as the rules were unclear to him. Writers didnt make it clear enough that a) The person killed has to be specifically thrown off the cliff b) it doesnt matter if the person to be killed either kills themselves willingly or unwillingly Bad writing as usual from Russos Strictly speaking the Russo brothers didn't write the script. The scene accomplished its goal in both cases for casual viewers. The movie goer is made to understand that someone has to die in order for the stone to be acquired. So basically you're saying that if someone didn't intend to sacrifice a loved one or didn't intend to die but tripped and fell over the cliff by accident, that would still count?
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 3:54:15 GMT
"stone demands a sacrifice..." - Black Widow was the sacrifice. Check. "In order to take the stone, you must lose that which you love." - Hawkeye lost Black Widow whom he loved. Check. "A soul... for a soul." - Black Widow's soul in exchange for the soul stone. Check. Seems to me all the requirements were met. Not sure what you're bitching about. So basically you're saying that if someone didn't intend to sacrifice a loved one or didn't intend to die but tripped and fell over the cliff by accident, that would still count?
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Post by Skaathar on May 10, 2019 4:09:21 GMT
"stone demands a sacrifice..." - Black Widow was the sacrifice. Check. "In order to take the stone, you must lose that which you love." - Hawkeye lost Black Widow whom he loved. Check. "A soul... for a soul." - Black Widow's soul in exchange for the soul stone. Check. Seems to me all the requirements were met. Not sure what you're bitching about. So basically you're saying that if someone didn't intend to sacrifice a loved one or didn't intend to die but tripped and fell over the cliff by accident, that would still count? No, because that wouldn't be a sacrifice would it?
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 4:15:41 GMT
So basically you're saying that if someone didn't intend to sacrifice a loved one or didn't intend to die but tripped and fell over the cliff by accident, that would still count? No, because that wouldn't be a sacrifice would it? Then Hawkeye didn't make a sacrifice either since he didn't willingly throw Black Widow over the cliff. Also, what if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly jumps over the cliff like Black Widow did but the other 2 people didn't want that person to jump over the cliff. Does that count? And which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to jump over the cliff?
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 4:18:03 GMT
The circumstances under which the sacrifice is made don't seem to matter strictly. This scenario isn't much more complicated than Thunder Dome; two men enter; one man leaves. Whether the sacrifice is murdered or commits suicide doesn't seem to matter so long as the surviving individual is perceived to have loved the deceased. The stone has no caveats regarding a willing or unwilling sacrifice. If thats the case I just need 1 simple question answering Why does Thanos not allow Gamora to kill herself when she tries Once again, MCU fans are making up a whole bunch of lame excuses to defend the lazy and contrived writing by the Russos. But even if we go with these lame excuses, that brings up more questions: 1. If someone didn't intend to sacrifice a loved one or didn't intend to die but tripped and fell over the cliff by accident, would that still count? 2. What if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly jumps over the cliff like Black Widow did but the other 2 surviving persons didn't want that 3rd person to jump over the cliff. Does that count? And which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to jump over the cliff?
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Post by Skaathar on May 10, 2019 4:18:26 GMT
No, because that wouldn't be a sacrifice would it? Then Hawkeye didn't make a sacrifice either since he didn't willingly throw Black Widow over the cliff. Also, what if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly jumps over the cliff like Black Widow did but the other 2 people didn't want that person to jump over the cliff. Does that count? And which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to jump over the cliff? Natasha sacrificed herself so that Clint could get the stone. Key word: sacrificed. Someone who accidentally trips would not have been a sacrifice. C'mon man, you can't be this stupid right?
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 4:20:28 GMT
Then Hawkeye didn't make a sacrifice either since he didn't willingly throw Black Widow over the cliff. Also, what if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly jumps over the cliff like Black Widow did but the other 2 people didn't want that person to jump over the cliff. Does that count? And which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to jump over the cliff? Natasha sacrificed herself so that Clint could get the stone. Key word: sacrificed. Someone who accidentally trips would not have been a sacrifice. C'mon man, you can't be this stupid right? 1. Then why did Thanos stop Gamora from sacrificing herself? 2. What if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly sacrifices himself like Black Widow did but the other 2 surviving persons didn't want that 3rd person to jump over the cliff. Which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to sacrifice himself?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 4:23:36 GMT
Natasha sacrificed herself so that Clint could get the stone. Key word: sacrificed. Someone who accidentally trips would not have been a sacrifice. C'mon man, you can't be this stupid right? 1. Then why did Thanos stop Gamora from sacrificing herself? 2. What if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly sacrifices himself like Black Widow did but the other 2 surviving persons didn't want that 3rd person to jump over the cliff. Which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to sacrifice himself? If Gamora sacrifices herself, it means Thanos didn't sacrifice her. Therefore no soul stone for Thanos.
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Post by Skaathar on May 10, 2019 4:26:08 GMT
Natasha sacrificed herself so that Clint could get the stone. Key word: sacrificed. Someone who accidentally trips would not have been a sacrifice. C'mon man, you can't be this stupid right? 1. Then why did Thanos stop Gamora from sacrificing herself? 2. What if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly sacrifices himself like Black Widow did but the other 2 surviving persons didn't want that 3rd person to jump over the cliff. Which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to sacrifice himself? Gamora wasn't sacrificing herself for the stone. She was gonna kill herself so Thanos would not get the stone. I.e. - it wasn't a sacrifice. As for your 3 people scenario, guess we'd just have to wait for something like that to happen for us to know right? No use guessing.
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Post by Lord Death Man on May 10, 2019 4:29:12 GMT
Strictly speaking the Russo brothers didn't write the script. The scene accomplished its goal in both cases for casual viewers. The movie goer is made to understand that someone has to die in order for the stone to be acquired. So basically you're saying that if someone didn't intend to sacrifice a loved one or didn't intend to die but tripped and fell over the cliff by accident, that would still count? Nope, that's just an accident. Stone awarded to no one.
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 4:29:17 GMT
1. Then why did Thanos stop Gamora from sacrificing herself? 2. What if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly sacrifices himself like Black Widow did but the other 2 surviving persons didn't want that 3rd person to jump over the cliff. Which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to sacrifice himself? If Gamora sacrifices herself, it means Thanos didn't sacrifice her. Therefore no soul stone for Thanos. So since Black Widow sacrificed herself, then why did Hawkeye get the soul stone when he didn't sacrifice Black Widow? Why is the writing so inconsistent?
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 4:31:23 GMT
1. Then why did Thanos stop Gamora from sacrificing herself? 2. What if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly sacrifices himself like Black Widow did but the other 2 surviving persons didn't want that 3rd person to jump over the cliff. Which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to sacrifice himself? As for your 3 people scenario, guess we'd just have to wait for something like that to happen for us to know right? No use guessing. So basically you have no answer for that question because the writing was too inconsistent for you to be able to answer the question without contradicting the lame excuses that you've come up with for the inconsistent writing.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 4:32:33 GMT
If Gamora sacrifices herself, it means Thanos didn't sacrifice her. Therefore no soul stone for Thanos. So since Black Widow sacrificed herself, then why did Hawkeye get the soul stone when he didn't sacrifice Black Widow? Why is the writing so inconsistent? He let her go. Soul for a soul.
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Post by Lord Death Man on May 10, 2019 4:43:00 GMT
The circumstances under which the sacrifice is made don't seem to matter strictly. This scenario isn't much more complicated than Thunder Dome; two men enter; one man leaves. Whether the sacrifice is murdered or commits suicide doesn't seem to matter so long as the surviving individual is perceived to have loved the deceased. The stone has no caveats regarding a willing or unwilling sacrifice. If thats the case I just need 1 simple question answering Why does Thanos not allow Gamora to kill herself when she tries Thanos didn't allow Gamora to kill herself because he preferred to do it himself --- being a murderer and all. Thanos is enamored of his own resolve. He is the sole architect of his own destiny. Gamora's suicide would have written her into a narrative that strictly states that Thanos is the only person who can save the universe. Her death at his hands also ensured that the stone would be awarded to him based on his understanding of the Red Skull's instructions and, not lost to a then-theoretical suicide caveat.
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Post by Skaathar on May 10, 2019 5:45:59 GMT
As for your 3 people scenario, guess we'd just have to wait for something like that to happen for us to know right? No use guessing. So basically you have no answer for that question because the writing was too inconsistent for you to be able to answer the question without contradicting the lame excuses that you've come up with for the inconsistent writing. No, we have no answer for that because that scenario was never presented to us and thus we have no data to judge from. There's nothing inconsistent about it. But I see you have no answer to me pointing out Gamora never intended to sacrifice herself.
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Post by DC-Fan on May 10, 2019 6:02:20 GMT
So basically you have no answer for that question because the writing was too inconsistent for you to be able to answer the question without contradicting the lame excuses that you've come up with for the inconsistent writing. No, we have no answer for that because that scenario was never presented to us and thus we have no data to judge from. There's nothing inconsistent about it. But I see you have no answer to me pointing out Gamora never intended to sacrifice herself. No, you have no answer for that question because the writing was too inconsistent for you to be able to answer the question without contradicting the lame excuses that you've come up with for the inconsistent writing. As for Gamora's intent, so you're basically contradicting Lord Death Man's claim that "Whether the sacrifice is murdered or commits suicide doesn't seem to matter so long as the surviving individual is perceived to have loved the deceased." and you're basically calling Lord Death's Man claim to be BULLSHIT?
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Post by justanaveragejoe on May 10, 2019 6:20:03 GMT
The circumstances under which the sacrifice is made don't seem to matter strictly. This scenario isn't much more complicated than Thunder Dome; two men enter; one man leaves. Whether the sacrifice is murdered or commits suicide doesn't seem to matter so long as the surviving individual is perceived to have loved the deceased. The stone has no caveats regarding a willing or unwilling sacrifice. If thats the case I just need 1 simple question answering Why does Thanos not allow Gamora to kill herself when she tries Because; 1. Gamora was going to kill herself to prevent Thanos from getting the soul stone. 2. Suicide is not a sacrifice. Thanos had to be the one to make a sacrifice. It be the same if you throw a dead body off the cliff. It's already dead. What are you confused about?
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