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Post by justanaveragejoe on May 10, 2019 6:28:18 GMT
Natasha sacrificed herself so that Clint could get the stone. Key word: sacrificed. Someone who accidentally trips would not have been a sacrifice. C'mon man, you can't be this stupid right? 1. Then why did Thanos stop Gamora from sacrificing herself? 2. What if 3 people showed up and 1 person willingly sacrifices himself like Black Widow did but the other 2 surviving persons didn't want that 3rd person to jump over the cliff. Which of the 2 surviving persons would actually get the stone since the 3rd person jumped over the cliff and neither of the 2 surviving persons wanted the 3rd person to sacrifice himself? 1. Gamora wasn't willing to sacrifice herself. She was willing to kill herself just so Thanos doesn't get his hands on the soul stone. 2. Probably the one the felt loss the most? IDK
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Post by kleinreturns on May 10, 2019 6:33:29 GMT
If thats the case I just need 1 simple question answering Why does Thanos not allow Gamora to kill herself when she tries Because; 1. Gamora was going to kill herself to prevent Thanos from getting the soul stone. 2. Suicide is not a sacrifice. Thanos had to be the one to make a sacrifice. It be the same if you throw a dead body off the cliff. It's already dead. What are you confused about? Good point.
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Post by Skaathar on May 10, 2019 6:49:23 GMT
No, we have no answer for that because that scenario was never presented to us and thus we have no data to judge from. There's nothing inconsistent about it. But I see you have no answer to me pointing out Gamora never intended to sacrifice herself. No, you have no answer for that question because the writing was too inconsistent for you to be able to answer the question without contradicting the lame excuses that you've come up with for the inconsistent writing. As for Gamora's intent, so you're basically contradicting Lord Death Man's claim that "Whether the sacrifice is murdered or commits suicide doesn't seem to matter so long as the surviving individual is perceived to have loved the deceased." and you're basically calling Lord Death's Man claim to be BULLSHIT? No, there's no contradiction because there's no data. We've never seen what happens with 3 people there, so anything we say is merely theories. We do know that a sacrifice still needs to be made though. As for Lord Death Man, I don't know what he said nor do I care at this moment. My conversation is with you. Do you admit that I'm correct regarding Gamora's non-sacrifice?
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Post by taylorfirst1 on May 10, 2019 18:51:27 GMT
I guess the writers didn't realize they had to pen the script on the same level as one of those "...For Dummies" books so that certain people would be able to comprehend what they were seeing on the screen.
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Post by poutinep on May 10, 2019 20:16:52 GMT
No, we have no answer for that because that scenario was never presented to us and thus we have no data to judge from. There's nothing inconsistent about it. But I see you have no answer to me pointing out Gamora never intended to sacrifice herself. No, you have no answer for that question because the writing was too inconsistent for you to be able to answer the question without contradicting the lame excuses that you've come up with for the inconsistent writing. As for Gamora's intent, so you're basically contradicting Lord Death Man's claim that "Whether the sacrifice is murdered or commits suicide doesn't seem to matter so long as the surviving individual is perceived to have loved the deceased." and you're basically calling Lord Death's Man claim to be BULLSHIT? Red Skull: What you seek lies in front of you. As does what you fear.
The person has to die from the fall.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on May 10, 2019 20:48:11 GMT
charzhino, DC-Fan, you guys are over-complicating the entire thing. I don't know whether it's because you two are just dumb or you're bored, but it's fairly obvious you two are jealous of Endgame's success. Before you claim it's not successful or it's a horrible film, it has made 2 billion in less than 2 weeks.
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Post by DC-Fan on May 11, 2019 0:41:33 GMT
If thats the case I just need 1 simple question answering Why does Thanos not allow Gamora to kill herself when she tries Suicide is not a sacrifice. Thanos had to be the one to make a sacrifice. And Black Widow committed committed suicide by jumping off the cliff. At no point did Hawkeye ever throw Black Widow over the cliff. The writing in Endgame is inconsistent and lazy and contrived.
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Post by blockbusted on May 11, 2019 1:03:41 GMT
Suicide is not a sacrifice. Thanos had to be the one to make a sacrifice. And Black Widow committed committed suicide by jumping off the cliff. At no point did Hawkeye ever throw Black Widow over the cliff. The writing in Endgame is inconsistent and lazy and contrived. Gamora tried to stab herself in order to prevent Thanos from throwing her over the cliff while Black Widow WILLINGLY sacrificed herself by throwing herself over the cliff. Do you not see the difference between the two AT ALL? Also, if Hawkeye actually threw her over the cliff, you would be trashing this film for THAT reason because no matter how everyone else explains things to you in detail, you would make up some half-@$$ed excuses to trash anything from MCU over and over again.
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Post by Skaathar on May 11, 2019 1:10:40 GMT
I see DC Fan is still avoiding me.
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Post by justanaveragejoe on May 11, 2019 2:02:06 GMT
Suicide is not a sacrifice. Thanos had to be the one to make a sacrifice. And Black Widow committed committed suicide by jumping off the cliff. At no point did Hawkeye ever throw Black Widow over the cliff. The writing in Endgame is inconsistent and lazy and contrived. Black Widow willingly sacrificed herself so Hawkeye can get the soul stone. BIG DIFFERENCE. Also, she jumped off the cliff. As long as the sacrificed dies by falling off the cliff, it counts.
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Post by Lord Death Man on May 11, 2019 6:53:48 GMT
No, you have no answer for that question because the writing was too inconsistent for you to be able to answer the question without contradicting the lame excuses that you've come up with for the inconsistent writing. As for Gamora's intent, so you're basically contradicting Lord Death Man's claim that "Whether the sacrifice is murdered or commits suicide doesn't seem to matter so long as the surviving individual is perceived to have loved the deceased." and you're basically calling Lord Death's Man claim to be BULLSHIT? No, there's no contradiction because there's no data. We've never seen what happens with 3 people there, so anything we say is merely theories. We do know that a sacrifice still needs to be made though. As for Lord Death Man, I don't know what he said nor do I care at this moment. My conversation is with you. Do you admit that I'm correct regarding Gamora's non-sacrifice? You don't need to care about or understand anything I said to comprehend that the premise of this thread is to overanalyze so-called logic flaws in the Vormir sacrifice that don't take most people out of the film or ruin their enjoyment of it. If these overblown nitpicks are what passes for criticism here, that is a shame and a missed opportunity to discuss more important aspects of the film. No film is immune to in-universe flaws and holes in logic; this is fairly typical of the medium. Feeble attempts like this one to undermine the movie are designed to resist any emotional resonance the film may have had or to prove that the emotional impact felt by others is somehow unjustified. If you, DC-Fan or charzhino can't understand that then, by all means, let's continue to put the filmmakers on trial for not wanting to play out a pivotal scene the exact same way twice --- that ought to be profitable, productive and fun.
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Post by Skaathar on May 11, 2019 7:20:50 GMT
No, there's no contradiction because there's no data. We've never seen what happens with 3 people there, so anything we say is merely theories. We do know that a sacrifice still needs to be made though. As for Lord Death Man, I don't know what he said nor do I care at this moment. My conversation is with you. Do you admit that I'm correct regarding Gamora's non-sacrifice? You don't need to care about or understand anything I said to comprehend that the premise of this thread is to overanalyze so-called logic flaws in the Vormir sacrifice that don't take most people out of the film or ruin their enjoyment of it. If these overblown nitpicks are what passes for criticism here, that is a shame and a missed opportunity to discuss more important aspects of the film. No film is immune to in-universe flaws and holes in logic; this is fairly typical of the medium. Feeble attempts like this one to undermine the movie are designed to resist any emotional resonance the film may have had or to prove that the emotional impact felt by others is somehow unjustified. If you, DC-Fan or charzhino can't understand that then, by all means, let's continue to put the filmmakers on trial for not wanting to play out a pivotal scene the exact same way twice --- that ought to be profitable, productive and fun. Woah dude. Why are you lumping me in together with DC-Fan or Charzino?
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Post by Lord Death Man on May 11, 2019 7:38:01 GMT
You don't need to care about or understand anything I said to comprehend that the premise of this thread is to overanalyze so-called logic flaws in the Vormir sacrifice that don't take most people out of the film or ruin their enjoyment of it. If these overblown nitpicks are what passes for criticism here, that is a shame and a missed opportunity to discuss more important aspects of the film. No film is immune to in-universe flaws and holes in logic; this is fairly typical of the medium. Feeble attempts like this one to undermine the movie are designed to resist any emotional resonance the film may have had or to prove that the emotional impact felt by others is somehow unjustified. If you, DC-Fan or charzhino can't understand that then, by all means, let's continue to put the filmmakers on trial for not wanting to play out a pivotal scene the exact same way twice --- that ought to be profitable, productive and fun. Woah dude. Why are you lumping me in together with DC-Fan or Charzino? I know the wheat from the chaff here. Wasn't trying to lump you in, it's late and that part came out wrong - apologies.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on May 11, 2019 18:32:47 GMT
charzhino, DC-Fan, you guys are over-complicating the entire thing. I don't know whether it's because you two are just dumb or you're bored, but it's fairly obvious you two are jealous of Endgame's success. Before you claim it's not successful or it's a horrible film, it has made 2 billion in less than 2 weeks. I think they just might not be mature enough to understand the nuances in the MCU. It's a bit too complex for some people. They should stick to things like the DCEU where everything gets solved in the end by throwing someone through buildings. Or the FoX-Men where the exact same simple message is hammered over and over in every movie. That message being, "prejudice is BAD" like I learned from watching Sesame Street.
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Post by charzhino on May 11, 2019 20:32:20 GMT
[ Or the FoX-Men where the exact same simple message is hammered over and over in every movie. That message being, "prejudice is BAD" like I learned from watching Sesame Street. Looks like the other themes went straight over your head if you think its the same message on repeat. Nuance in a mcu movie? Haha. Every theme or message in Mcu movies have been alredy fleshed out and conveyed with more rigour in xmen movies. The never give up meesage/whatever it takes in Endgame? DOFP did it better. Superhero registration theme in Civil War? X1 did it better in 2000 lmao. Themes of ptsd and suffering in isolation of Tony Stark in IM3? Better 10x in Logan. Captain marvel not remembering her past and needing to piece it togther done better in X2. Black panthers social divisions theme done better in first Class. And so on
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Post by damngumby on May 11, 2019 20:44:38 GMT
So ...
It looks like there is universal agreement that self-sacrifice would 100% satisfy the requiements of the stone. If either Hawkeye or Black Widow had killed themself so the other could obtain the stone, it would have worked ... since they both had a platonic type love for each other.
Gamora simply killing herself would not have worked, because she would not have been sacrificing herself in pursuit of the stone. It would have been the exact opposite, in fact.
In the Thanos & Gamora situation, Thanos's only remaining option was to sacrifice Gamora himself. The question becomes - If Thanos had the means to stop Gamora from killing herself (which he did), and he abstained, would doing nothing satisfy the sacrificial requirements of the stone? Can a non-act be considered an act of sacrifice? At best, this is a grey area. Most of these mythical type rules tend to be rather vague with plenty of wiggle room for reneging, if they are not followed to the letter. It is ridiculous to think that Thanos would have risked his destiny by letting Gamoa kill herself and then hope for a favorable ruling on the Vormir sacrifice. Thanos did the one sure-fire logical thing. He killed her himself, to avoid any possibility of failure.
There is no flaw, there is no lazy writting. It is all perfectly understandable. If you can't understand it, the problem lies with you, not the movies.
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Post by charzhino on May 11, 2019 20:50:04 GMT
Preachcaleb is the one whose given the most sensible answer in that Red skull shows them the edge of the cliff and is narrating when they all looking down. That would imply the sacrafice needs to be thrown down the cliff. Whether the sacrafice body is still alive or already dead before the throwing takes place is still unclear. Gamora could have killed herself and Thanos would then throw her dead body over thr cliff. Some people say he would be given the soul gem because it means a soul for a soul criteria has been met. Others say he wouldn't get the soul gem because gamora killed herself to try and stop Thanos succeeding.
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Post by charzhino on May 11, 2019 20:53:19 GMT
Gamora simply killing herself would not have worked, because she would not have been sacrificing herself in pursuit of the stone. Gamoras intentons are irrelevant. Red skull says to Thanos, " you must lose that which you love" The criteria has to be met by the pursuer of the gem. The victim is most likely going to resist because they dont want to die, so in that interpretation doesnt matter if gamora kills herself, Thanos should still get the gem because hes lost what he loves
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Post by DC-Fan on May 11, 2019 21:28:07 GMT
Gamora simply killing herself would not have worked, because she would not have been sacrificing herself in pursuit of the stone. Gamoras intentons are irrelevant. Red skull says to Thanos, " you must lose that which you love" The criteria has to be met by the pursuer of the gem. The victim is most likely going to resist because they dont want to die, so in that interpretation doesnt matter if gamora kills herself, Thanos should still get the gem because hes lost what he loves King Kong Shady just got owned! But that's not surprising since King Kong Shady is always wrong and always getting owned.
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Post by damngumby on May 11, 2019 21:42:41 GMT
Gamora simply killing herself would not have worked, because she would not have been sacrificing herself in pursuit of the stone. Gamoras intentons are irrelevant. Red skull says to Thanos, " you must lose that which you love" The criteria has to be met by the pursuer of the gem. The victim is most likely going to resist because they dont want to die, so in that interpretation doesnt matter if gamora kills herself, Thanos should still get the gem because hes lost what he loves If the stone had only required a death, then the rules would have stated death, not sacrifice. Sacrifice is all about intention. It is an offering to a higher power. In this case it is a life offered to the Soul Stone. Thanos would not have been deemed worthy to recieve the stone if he had simply sat on his hands and let Gamora kill herself out of spite. There would have been no act of an offering to the stone, either by Gamora or Thanos. If you were to present your argument to Red Skull, no doubt, he would laugh in your face ... as I am doing, right now.
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