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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 23:28:24 GMT
Yeah, we learned that in Sociology class.
What's the big deal, though?
Exactly who was giving anyone IQ tests in Africa 5000 years ago to make that claim? Well, no one but they weren't doing it for white people, either. LOL
But I took a class on sociology not more than a decade ago and what you just posted was in the textbook on differences in 'intelligence' between different races.
It's not controversial, not unless you are PC. It's been studied to death. They even tried to change the tests to make them more accessible but they got the same results.
Why it has happened consistently ever since they started testing is another question. The results, however, are consistent.
So because of that his name is to be stricken from the award?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 23:44:45 GMT
Exactly who was giving anyone IQ tests in Africa 5000 years ago to make that claim? Well, no one but they weren't doing it for white people, either. LOL
But I took a class on sociology not more than a decade ago and what you just posted was in the textbook on differences in 'intelligence' between different races.
It's not controversial, not unless you are PC. It's been studied to death. They even tried to change the tests to make them more accessible but they got the same results.
Why it has happened consistently ever since they started testing is another question. The results, however, are consistent.
So because of that his name is to be stricken from the award?
Ok show me that study that shows IQ is related to race and I will think about it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 23:48:31 GMT
Well, no one but they weren't doing it for white people, either. LOL
But I took a class on sociology not more than a decade ago and what you just posted was in the textbook on differences in 'intelligence' between different races.
It's not controversial, not unless you are PC. It's been studied to death. They even tried to change the tests to make them more accessible but they got the same results.
Why it has happened consistently ever since they started testing is another question. The results, however, are consistent.
So because of that his name is to be stricken from the award?
Ok show me that study that shows IQ is related to race and I will think about it. And tell me where he got those super high IQ folks over 5000 years too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 23:50:09 GMT
Well, no one but they weren't doing it for white people, either. LOL
But I took a class on sociology not more than a decade ago and what you just posted was in the textbook on differences in 'intelligence' between different races.
It's not controversial, not unless you are PC. It's been studied to death. They even tried to change the tests to make them more accessible but they got the same results.
Why it has happened consistently ever since they started testing is another question. The results, however, are consistent.
So because of that his name is to be stricken from the award?
Ok show me that study that shows IQ is related to race and I will think about it. I don't have that textbook anymore. But we had access to all the test score results going back to around the time of WWII.
And they were very consistent.
Asians scored the best. Caucasians were next. Then, much lower were people of Hispanic or African descent.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 0:51:56 GMT
Ok show me that study that shows IQ is related to race and I will think about it. I don't have that textbook anymore. But we had access to all the test score results going back to around the time of WWII.
And they were very consistent.
Asians scored the best. Caucasians were next. Then, much lower were people of Hispanic or African descent.
WWII, 5000 years ago, heck that's sorta close, rounding error, should take care of that, and someone remembers hearing that in a class... QED
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Post by Prime etc. on Sept 2, 2019 1:18:39 GMT
It looks he said about the same thing as Lovecraft on race and segregation. I don't know if his point on "ordinary, or run of the mill geniuses" can be backed up by facts--however how does that negate his contributions to science fiction? As I said, the trouble is Ng is not advocating racial harmony-she is only against racial self-determination in European societies which cannot be defended from a moral or artistic perspective. Do Europeans have the right to make art works for other Europeans? This is the real question. She seems to be believe the answer is no.
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Post by Prime etc. on Sept 2, 2019 1:40:34 GMT
His point on education seems to be that you cannot have equality ideology as a basis for education because it fails to acknowledge the differences between individuals. It lifts the dumbest students at the expense of the brightest and removes merit from consideration in decisions. We all know with Hollywood how bad art gets when merit is no longer a priority in creative decisions. To do it with education means filtering out opportunities for students to prosper and find where they belong. That appears to be what he is alarmed about--that liberals are not thinking about individual merit-but a blanket approach where they are blind to individual differences. As we have seen, educational standards continue to drop because they respond to the reality that individuals are different (i.e. bad performance in schools) by reducing test difficulty.
Dumbing down of society which obviously Campbell opposed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 2:07:52 GMT
I don't have that textbook anymore. But we had access to all the test score results going back to around the time of WWII.
And they were very consistent.
Asians scored the best. Caucasians were next. Then, much lower were people of Hispanic or African descent.
WWII, 5000 years ago, heck that's sorta close, rounding error, should take care of that, and someone remembers hearing that in a class... QED Oh come on! Liberals always have to find something to bitch about and they found Campbell. And they invented reasons to hate him and here we are today.
Another reason I have grown to despise liberalism. It is the most fascist ideology I have ever seen in America. And it is catching on.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 2:49:53 GMT
WWII, 5000 years ago, heck that's sorta close, rounding error, should take care of that, and someone remembers hearing that in a class... QED Oh come on! Liberals always have to find something to bitch about and they found Campbell. And they invented reasons to hate him and here we are today.
Another reason I have grown to despise liberalism. It is the most fascist ideology I have ever seen in America. And it is catching on.
Ok, first, I'm a moderate that leans conservative, and I'm drunk ask a skunk from partying with friends tonight. We'll pick this up tomorrow. I'm amazed one would pick this guy's unsubstantiated, racist, BS to defend, when there are people who have been targeted by the left wing nutballs that were not even close to expressing this guy's racist attitudes. I guess we all choose our battles. Au demain.
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Post by Prime etc. on Sept 2, 2019 4:24:44 GMT
I hate being ignored.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 4:32:24 GMT
Sorry buddy, I've good a few irons in the fire. I'll try to read up in the morning if you are talking to me. Not trying to ignore anyone.
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Post by Prime etc. on Sept 2, 2019 5:51:04 GMT
Sorry buddy, I've good a few irons in the fire. I'll try to read up in the morning if you are talking to me. Not trying to ignore anyone. Well I can live with that. I didn't think I was being deliberately ignored, just hate being left out.
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Post by hi224 on Sept 2, 2019 6:01:56 GMT
nice.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 13:48:06 GMT
ok, @jamesavalon and Prime etc. , I'm back I'm not trying to defend who this young author is that brought up the complaint about the award. Call her whatever you wish, if I looked into her, I would probably find some sort of common ground with you on her attitudes. Regardless of who she is, the current editors of Analog looked at the award and made the decision to change the name. I usually get pretty perturbed when this happens, as I agree with the points you also make about how someone can't look at a persons action in the past with today's eyes. One of you mentioned taking sociology, the sociological perspective is to put one's self into the context of the time and overall culture. That's why things like noses getting bent out of shape over playing "Baby it's Cold Outside" and especially renaming the Laura Ingalls Wilder award bother me. I'm standing on your side on so many of these crazy things. But fellas, this isn't one of those. This man unapologetically took very racist stances during the civil rights movement, writing editorials like I have cited that make claims that are impossible to prove some racial superiority. He was absolutely deemed racist by his peers during his tenure, and his actions caused several sci-fi writers to not want to be published in Analog, and he also rejected stories, some that ended up winning awards, because they featured black and woman lead characters, not in 1917 or even 1947, but in 1967, this guy was still pushing back. Complaints about Campbell's attitudes go steadily back from today to his tenure at Analog. They come from award winning authors who lamented that Campbell changed Analog from such a staple that really helped increase the quality of Science Fiction under his helm in his first decades there to a pulpit of his politics and his racist attitudes in the later 1950's and especially the 1960's. He has been complained about all along, not by just the left wingnuts, but by many authors. He was a very talented author, but this isn't a case of someone digging up some obscure things he said or did and pushing to change an award because people are looking at the 1960's with 2010's attitudes. His views were abhorrent for 1960's too, and I fully support Analog for their decision to move on.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 2, 2019 15:48:05 GMT
Stop naming awards after individuals and you've solved the problem of retroactive incorrectitude, at least at prize-giving time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 16:14:06 GMT
ok, @jamesavalon and Prime etc. , I'm back I'm not trying to defend who this young author is that brought up the complaint about the award. Call her whatever you wish, if I looked into her, I would probably find some sort of common ground with you on her attitudes. Regardless of who she is, the current editors of Analog looked at the award and made the decision to change the name. I usually get pretty perturbed when this happens, as I agree with the points you also make about how someone can't look at a persons action in the past with today's eyes. One of you mentioned taking sociology, the sociological perspective is to put one's self into the context of the time and overall culture. That's why things like noses getting bent out of shape over playing "Baby it's Cold Outside" and especially renaming the Laura Ingalls Wilder award bother me. I'm standing on your side on so many of these crazy things. But fellas, this isn't one of those. This man unapologetically took very racist stances during the civil rights movement, writing editorials like I have cited that make claims that are impossible to prove some racial superiority. He was absolutely deemed racist by his peers during his tenure, and his actions caused several sci-fi writers to not want to be published in Analog, and he also rejected stories, some that ended up winning awards, because they featured black and woman lead characters, not in 1917 or even 1947, but in 1967, this guy was still pushing back. Complaints about Campbell's attitudes go steadily back from today to his tenure at Analog. They come from award winning authors who lamented that Campbell changed Analog from such a staple that really helped increase the quality of Science Fiction under his helm in his first decades there to a pulpit of his politics and his racist attitudes in the later 1950's and especially the 1960's. He has been complained about all along, not by just the left wingnuts, but by many authors. He was a very talented author, but this isn't a case of someone digging up some obscure things he said or did and pushing to change an award because people are looking at the 1960's with 2010's attitudes. His views were abhorrent for 1960's too, and I fully support Analog for their decision to move on. Yes, we know that but WHAT did he say that was so abhorrent? That stuff about the IQ's? No. If anything, science backs him up on that.
Has he said anything that is really offensive? Or are we just being part of the liberal hate machine? Every day they need something or someone to hate.
The Hugo award next?
The Bram Stoker award?
Philip K Dick?
The OSCARS?
Liberals find reasons to hate anything. Next to lying, it's what they do best.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 16:38:09 GMT
ok, @jamesavalon and Prime etc. , I'm back I'm not trying to defend who this young author is that brought up the complaint about the award. Call her whatever you wish, if I looked into her, I would probably find some sort of common ground with you on her attitudes. Regardless of who she is, the current editors of Analog looked at the award and made the decision to change the name. I usually get pretty perturbed when this happens, as I agree with the points you also make about how someone can't look at a persons action in the past with today's eyes. One of you mentioned taking sociology, the sociological perspective is to put one's self into the context of the time and overall culture. That's why things like noses getting bent out of shape over playing "Baby it's Cold Outside" and especially renaming the Laura Ingalls Wilder award bother me. I'm standing on your side on so many of these crazy things. But fellas, this isn't one of those. This man unapologetically took very racist stances during the civil rights movement, writing editorials like I have cited that make claims that are impossible to prove some racial superiority. He was absolutely deemed racist by his peers during his tenure, and his actions caused several sci-fi writers to not want to be published in Analog, and he also rejected stories, some that ended up winning awards, because they featured black and woman lead characters, not in 1917 or even 1947, but in 1967, this guy was still pushing back. Complaints about Campbell's attitudes go steadily back from today to his tenure at Analog. They come from award winning authors who lamented that Campbell changed Analog from such a staple that really helped increase the quality of Science Fiction under his helm in his first decades there to a pulpit of his politics and his racist attitudes in the later 1950's and especially the 1960's. He has been complained about all along, not by just the left wingnuts, but by many authors. He was a very talented author, but this isn't a case of someone digging up some obscure things he said or did and pushing to change an award because people are looking at the 1960's with 2010's attitudes. His views were abhorrent for 1960's too, and I fully support Analog for their decision to move on. Yes, we know that but WHAT did he say that was so abhorrent? That stuff about the IQ's? No. If anything, science backs him up on that.
Has he said anything that is really offensive? Or are we just being part of the liberal hate machine? Every day they need something or someone to hate.
The Hugo award next? The Bram Stoker award?
Philip K Dick?
The OSCARS? Liberals find reasons to hate anything. Next to lying, it's what they do best.
Do you find Campbell's behavior abhorrent in this report? I'll pull out the part that causes me not to have too much heartburn on renaming the award, and Analog moving on. BTW, if they do go after any of those others you mention, tag me, I'll probably join in on your side. www.nyrsf.com/racism-and-science-fiction-.html
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 16:45:49 GMT
Yes, we know that but WHAT did he say that was so abhorrent? That stuff about the IQ's? No. If anything, science backs him up on that.
Has he said anything that is really offensive? Or are we just being part of the liberal hate machine? Every day they need something or someone to hate.
The Hugo award next? The Bram Stoker award?
Philip K Dick?
The OSCARS? Liberals find reasons to hate anything. Next to lying, it's what they do best.
Do you find Campbell's behavior abhorrent in this report? I'll pull out the part that causes me not to have too much heartburn on renaming the award, and Analog moving on. BTW, if they do go after any of those others you mention, tag me, I'll probably join in on your side. www.nyrsf.com/racism-and-science-fiction-.html That's Delany and Nova is one of my favorite novels (I've read it a dozen times!) but that doesn't make Campbell wrong in his thinking.
By the way, the irony of Delany is that Nova did not win any awards when it is CLEARLY his best novel, while his inferior works like Einstein Intersection and Babel-17 did. It's backwards. Those novels should not have even been nominated they are so average.
But I don't disagree with Campbell on his reasoning. His readers were overwhelmingly white and he may have been right at that time. And he has to think about sales as much as anything.
Not nearly reason for this outrage or for changing the name.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 17:11:27 GMT
Do you find Campbell's behavior abhorrent in this report? I'll pull out the part that causes me not to have too much heartburn on renaming the award, and Analog moving on. BTW, if they do go after any of those others you mention, tag me, I'll probably join in on your side. www.nyrsf.com/racism-and-science-fiction-.htmlThat's Delany and Nova is one of my favorite novels (I've read it a dozen times!) but that doesn't make Campbell wrong in his thinking.
By the way, the irony of Delany is that Nova did not win any awards when it is CLEARLY his best novel, while his inferior works like Einstein Intersection and Babel-17 did. It's backwards. Those novels should not have even been nominated they are so average.
But I don't disagree with Campbell on his reasoning. His readers were overwhelmingly white and he may have been right at that time. And he has to think about sales as much as anything.
Not nearly reason for this outrage or for changing the name.
Well the people who run Analog apparently do see it as enough reason, and I agree with the change. Sorry you take issue with the change. I've shown you why I don't, and I'm someone who has had issue with most every case of this sort of stuff in the past. There are plenty more examples of this kind of stuff coming from him, and how writers moved away from the publication in those later years.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 17:19:24 GMT
That's Delany and Nova is one of my favorite novels (I've read it a dozen times!) but that doesn't make Campbell wrong in his thinking.
By the way, the irony of Delany is that Nova did not win any awards when it is CLEARLY his best novel, while his inferior works like Einstein Intersection and Babel-17 did. It's backwards. Those novels should not have even been nominated they are so average.
But I don't disagree with Campbell on his reasoning. His readers were overwhelmingly white and he may have been right at that time. And he has to think about sales as much as anything.
Not nearly reason for this outrage or for changing the name.
Well the people who run Analog apparently do see it as enough reason, and I agree with the change. Sorry you take issue with the change. I've shown you why I don't, and I'm someone who has had issue with most every case of this sort of stuff in the past. There are plenty more examples of this kind of stuff coming from him, and how writers moved away from the publication in those later years. Yeah, PLENTY of examples. I give you credit for at least trying. None on twitter have been able to.
I think Campbell more than earned his name in SF.
Those at Analog couldn't provide reasons, either.
They gave the same kind of vague rationale we hear all the time.
You are a RACIST and therefore your name must be stricken from history!
It's like a Twilight Zone episode.
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