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Post by Prime etc. on Sept 2, 2019 17:23:00 GMT
They still felt it was ok to name the award after him once he died-and this was well after the civil rights movement and no one had a problem with it for decades. And you know why they didn't have a problem? Because people weren't promoting blatant anti-European ideology so aggressively then. If he says "I don't believe Africa will ever have a technologically advanced society" he is either right or wrong--either way that is not relevant to his literary contributions. Saying his name needs to be stricken from the award because of that might only make sense if the future winners are 60% African. It isn't pro-justice to remove his name--it is anti-European.
But even if they decided to rename the award for some other reason, they should not have done it after her remarks because it makes it sound like they agree with her bigotry-that Europeans have no right to cultural self-determination--and they should not be encouraging that kind of anti-white intolerance because once blood is tasted, they will keep pushing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 17:33:22 GMT
Well the people who run Analog apparently do see it as enough reason, and I agree with the change. Sorry you take issue with the change. I've shown you why I don't, and I'm someone who has had issue with most every case of this sort of stuff in the past. There are plenty more examples of this kind of stuff coming from him, and how writers moved away from the publication in those later years. Yeah, PLENTY of examples. I give you credit for at least trying. None on twitter have been able to.
I think Campbell more than earned his name in SF.
Those at Analog couldn't provide reasons, either.
They gave the same kind of vague rationale we hear all the time.
You are a RACIST and therefore your name must be stricken from history!
It's like a Twilight Zone episode.
How many examples do you need for it to be plenty? His name isn't being stricken from history, the award for the best new writer, has been changed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 17:36:00 GMT
They still felt it was ok to name the award after him once he died-and this was well after the civil rights movement and no one had a problem with it for decades. And you know why they didn't have a problem? Because people weren't promoting blatant anti-European ideology so aggressively then. If he says "I don't believe Africa will ever have a technologically advanced society" he is either right or wrong--either way that is not relevant to his literary contributions. Saying his name needs to be stricken from the award because of that might only make sense if the future winners are 60% African. It isn't pro-justice to remove his name--it is anti-European. But even if they decided to rename the award for some other reason, they should not have done it after her remarks because it makes it sound like they agree with her bigotry-that Europeans have no right to cultural self-determination--and they should not be encouraging that kind of anti-white intolerance because once blood is tasted, they will keep pushing. People had a problem with Campbell's racism for a long, long time. Before his death, and after his death.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 17:36:54 GMT
Yeah, PLENTY of examples. I give you credit for at least trying. None on twitter have been able to.
I think Campbell more than earned his name in SF.
Those at Analog couldn't provide reasons, either.
They gave the same kind of vague rationale we hear all the time.
You are a RACIST and therefore your name must be stricken from history!
It's like a Twilight Zone episode.
How many examples do you need for it to be plenty? His name isn't being stricken from history, the award for the best new writer, has been changed. I'd like just one good example.
The ones provided so far only show that he was a very logical man.
By today's standards, he would be politically incorrect but he is not wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 17:43:19 GMT
How many examples do you need for it to be plenty? His name isn't being stricken from history, the award for the best new writer, has been changed. I'd like just one good example.
The ones provided so far only show that he was a very logical man.
By today's standards, he would be politically incorrect but he is not wrong.
And what exactly would you consider a "good" example? Where do you something as beginning to being racist? Give me an example of something, from anywhere, that you would consider as just crossing that line as being something you would consider racist, and I'll try to see if I can help you out. I think we need a common frame of reference.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 17:49:31 GMT
I'd like just one good example.
The ones provided so far only show that he was a very logical man.
By today's standards, he would be politically incorrect but he is not wrong.
And what exactly would you consider a "good" example? Where do you something as beginning to being racist? Give me an example of something, from anywhere, that you would consider as just crossing that line as being something you would consider racist, and I'll try to see if I can help you out. I think we need a common frame of reference. I am not making the accusation. A person should be free from guilt of any accusation until it can be proven to be true.
I am simply reacting to the accusation.
Today, the mere accusation seems to be enough, without anything to back it up.
I am frankly shocked that you, a moderate, would not see it the same way.
What a sad and pathetic path liberals are taking us down.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 18:01:52 GMT
And what exactly would you consider a "good" example? Where do you something as beginning to being racist? Give me an example of something, from anywhere, that you would consider as just crossing that line as being something you would consider racist, and I'll try to see if I can help you out. I think we need a common frame of reference. I am not making the accusation. A person should be free from guilt of any accusation until it can be proven to be true.
I am simply reacting to the accusation.
Today, the mere accusation seems to be enough, without anything to back it up.
I am frankly shocked that you, a moderate, would not see it the same way.
What a sad and pathetic path liberals are taking us down.
I just asked you to provide me an example of something you consider crossing the line. I have found examples, that I personally feel are racist and you don't feel that they are. Just provide me something you see as crossing that line, just a bit, I'm not talking about Campbell, you could give me a hypothetical situation of it just crossing the line, and I'll have that frame to work from. I'll look at the several things I see documented out there to see if my searches will be something that would end up being productive.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 18:20:13 GMT
I am not making the accusation. A person should be free from guilt of any accusation until it can be proven to be true.
I am simply reacting to the accusation.
Today, the mere accusation seems to be enough, without anything to back it up.
I am frankly shocked that you, a moderate, would not see it the same way.
What a sad and pathetic path liberals are taking us down.
I just asked you to provide me an example of something you consider crossing the line. I have found examples, that I personally feel are racist and you don't feel that they are. Just provide me something you see as crossing that line, just a bit, I'm not talking about Campbell, you could give me a hypothetical situation of it just crossing the line, and I'll have that frame to work from. I'll look at the several things I see documented out there to see if my searches will be something that would end up being productive. I asked you for examples to back up claims of racism.
I strongly disagree with your examples. At worst, he is politically incorrect, which is nearly impossible to avoid considering how intolerant liberals have become.
That's a crime to liberals. Not to me.
I simply contend that what I have seen so far by Campbell is not racism. But liberals will drag his name through the racist mud for all times, fair or not.
I think we are done here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 18:27:16 GMT
I just asked you to provide me an example of something you consider crossing the line. I have found examples, that I personally feel are racist and you don't feel that they are. Just provide me something you see as crossing that line, just a bit, I'm not talking about Campbell, you could give me a hypothetical situation of it just crossing the line, and I'll have that frame to work from. I'll look at the several things I see documented out there to see if my searches will be something that would end up being productive. I asked you for examples to back up claims of racism.
I strongly disagree with your examples. At worst, he is politically incorrect, which is nearly impossible to avoid considering how intolerant liberals have become.
That's a crime to liberals. Not to me.
I simply contend that what I have seen so far by Campbell is not racism. But liberals will drag his name through the racist mud for all times, fair or not.
I think we are done here.
Why won't you just provide me an example where that line just gets crossed.. I've found articles citing Ellison, Asimov, all his other editorials I can look through going back years, and to me I see racism as well but I'm not going to continue the effort of dragging them out if I don't know what you think just crosses the line. I've told you where I see it crossing the line in the examples I cited. I understand you feel those examples are merely politically incorrect. So I'm just asking you where it goes from one realm to the other. It doesn't need to be a real life occurrence, just a hypothetical situation where jamesavalon would start to think, "Yes, that may be a racist act."
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Post by Prime etc. on Sept 2, 2019 18:29:28 GMT
People had a problem with Campbell's racism for a long, long time. Before his death, and after his death. Not enough to erase his literary contributions. His contributions to science fiction literature were considered more important. Now apparently, adhering to anti-European dogma is more important than science fiction literature.
What she did is like where you have a house and a stranger comes to the door and you say: Hey! it's good here-come in and rest by the fire-make yourself at home.
Then later more come along-and in her case, she didnt have to knock on the door because it was already open-and she comes in, sits by the fire and then says to you: what the hell are you doing in my house?
That is what Ng said about Campbell and his literary decisions. The US was 90% white right into the 1970s. It makes as much sense for him to be European-focused as it is for Ng to be Han Chinese focused, like she is about Hong Kong. If she had said she champions Tibetan rights over Han Chinese that would be different-but she didn't mention them in her speech. She is self-centered and then accuses Campbell of the same. What a fucking idiot-a future literary geniuses of western literature according to the Hugos.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 18:30:27 GMT
I asked you for examples to back up claims of racism.
I strongly disagree with your examples. At worst, he is politically incorrect, which is nearly impossible to avoid considering how intolerant liberals have become.
That's a crime to liberals. Not to me.
I simply contend that what I have seen so far by Campbell is not racism. But liberals will drag his name through the racist mud for all times, fair or not.
I think we are done here.
Why won't you just provide me an example where that line just gets crossed.. I've found articles citing Ellison, Asimov, all his other editorials I can look through going back years, and to me I see racism as well but I'm not going to continue the effort of dragging them out if I don't know what you think just crosses the line. I've told you where I see it crossing the line in the examples I cited. I understand you feel those examples are merely politically incorrect. So I'm just asking you where it goes from one realm to the other. It doesn't need to be a real life occurrence, just a hypothetical situation where jamesavalon would start to think, "Yes, that may be a racist act." I can but I don't indulge your obvious diversion when your examples to back up claims of racism were so easily dismissed.
I am really done this time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 18:33:14 GMT
Why won't you just provide me an example where that line just gets crossed.. I've found articles citing Ellison, Asimov, all his other editorials I can look through going back years, and to me I see racism as well but I'm not going to continue the effort of dragging them out if I don't know what you think just crosses the line. I've told you where I see it crossing the line in the examples I cited. I understand you feel those examples are merely politically incorrect. So I'm just asking you where it goes from one realm to the other. It doesn't need to be a real life occurrence, just a hypothetical situation where jamesavalon would start to think, "Yes, that may be a racist act." I can but I don't indulge your obvious diversion when your examples to back up claims of racism were so easily dismissed.
I am really done this time.
Wow! Hard to know what to bring you when you won't give me a frame of reference.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 18:36:49 GMT
People had a problem with Campbell's racism for a long, long time. Before his death, and after his death. Not enough to erase his literary contributions. His contributions to science fiction literature were considered more important. Now apparently, adhering to anti-European dogma is more important than science fiction literature.
What she did is like where you have a house and a stranger comes to the door and you say: Hey! it's good here-come in and rest by the fire-make yourself at home.
Then later more come along-and in her case, she didnt have to knock on the door because it was already open-and she comes in, sits by the fire and then says to you: what the hell are you doing in my house?
That is what Ng said about Campbell and his literary decisions. The US was 90% white right into the 1970s. It makes as much sense for him to be European-focused as it is for Ng to be Han Chinese focused, like she is about Hong Kong. If she had said she champions Tibetan rights over Han Chinese that would be different-but she didn't mention them in her speech. She is self-centered and then accuses Campbell of the same. What a fucking idiot-a future literary geniuses of western literature according to the Hugos.
Like I said, I'm not contending anything about Ng. I'm talking about Campbell's own statements and the statements of noted Sci-Fi authors for many years prior to this incident.
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Post by Prime etc. on Sept 2, 2019 18:47:43 GMT
Like I said, I'm not contending anything about Ng. I'm talking about Campbell's own statements and the statements of noted Sci-Fi authors for many years prior to this incident. Yeah I know but no one felt it was worth changing-they did it because of her speech or that is what is implied-and it is terrible that they changed it after her speech. But I don't blame her--they had to know something about her writing and beliefs so by nominating her they were bringing a burning tree into the house and it was understandable the roof would catch fire. Could well be that they were hoping it would happen so they could make a grand statement. They said "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" sounds like they don't even see the irony in that and how it applies to their decisions.
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Post by faustus5 on Sept 2, 2019 19:06:57 GMT
Wow! Hard to know what to bring you when you won't give me a frame of reference. You are completely wasting your time with these two fuckwits, because both of them are racist assholes who almost certainly agree with everything Campbell ever said--which is the only reason they are here. One of them is an open Nazi sympathizer (I mean that quite literally) and the other not only denies every instance anyone ever points to as not be genuine racism, but liked a post by someone who praised fascism. You are not dealing with individuals who listen to reason or evidence, nor are you dealing with people who have any goodness or humanity left in themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 19:07:13 GMT
Like I said, I'm not contending anything about Ng. I'm talking about Campbell's own statements and the statements of noted Sci-Fi authors for many years prior to this incident. Yeah I know but no one felt it was worth changing-they did it because of her speech or that is what is implied-and it is terrible that they changed it after her speech. But I don't blame her--they had to know something about her writing and beliefs so by nominating her they were bringing a burning tree into the house and it was understandable the roof would catch fire. Could well be that they were hoping it would happen so they could make a grand statement. They said "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" sounds like they don't even see the irony in that and how it applies to their decisions.
Well, I'll personally never forget Campbell's work, nor the fun of the old Astoundings and Analog's that he pioneered. Those were great for a very long time. I won't forget where he went to and took that magazine either when he got into his later years.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 19:20:44 GMT
Wow! Hard to know what to bring you when you won't give me a frame of reference. You are completely wasting your time with these two fuckwits, because both of them are racist assholes who almost certainly agree with everything Campbell ever said--which is the only reason they are here. One of them is an open Nazi sympathizer (I mean that quite literally) and the other not only denies every instance anyone ever points to as not be genuine racism, but liked a post by someone who praised fascism. You are not dealing with individuals who listen to reason or evidence, nor are you dealing with people who have any goodness or humanity left in themselves. I personally believe that most, but maybe not all, people have a point where they believe racism begins. It helps to get a good feel of that to continue conversation if it is apparent that one's own is quite different from theirs. Probing questions help figure out where someone stands. I think Campbell himself would revel in asking that kind of question to frame a conversation. Just too bad Campbell had biases that alienated him from those he had inspired into the field in later life.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 19:24:00 GMT
You are completely wasting your time with these two fuckwits, because both of them are racist assholes who almost certainly agree with everything Campbell ever said--which is the only reason they are here. One of them is an open Nazi sympathizer (I mean that quite literally) and the other not only denies every instance anyone ever points to as not be genuine racism, but liked a post by someone who praised fascism. You are not dealing with individuals who listen to reason or evidence, nor are you dealing with people who have any goodness or humanity left in themselves. I personally believe that most, but maybe not all, people have a point where they believe racism begins. It helps to get a good feel of that to continue conversation if it is apparent that one's own is quite different from theirs. Probing questions help figure out where someone stands. I think Campbell himself would revel in asking that kind of question to frame a conversation. Just too bad Campbell had biases that alienated him from those he had inspired into the field in later life. Good god, you are listening to faustus! The most deranged, hated man on these boards?
All he does is go around insulting people.
I didn't mean to interrupt but you are one of the very few who can call faustus5 a 'friend' on these boards.
Enjoy! LOL
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 19:30:16 GMT
I personally believe that most, but maybe not all, people have a point where they believe racism begins. It helps to get a good feel of that to continue conversation if it is apparent that one's own is quite different from theirs. Probing questions help figure out where someone stands. I think Campbell himself would revel in asking that kind of question to frame a conversation. Just too bad Campbell had biases that alienated him from those he had inspired into the field in later life. Good god, you are listening to faustus! The most deranged, hated man on these boards?
All he does is go around insulting people.
I didn't mean to interrupt but you are one of the very few who can call faustus5 a 'friend' on these boards.
Enjoy! LOL
I heard his opinion, and I shared my own back. It's not a hard thing to do.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 19:35:01 GMT
Good god, you are listening to faustus! The most deranged, hated man on these boards?
All he does is go around insulting people.
I didn't mean to interrupt but you are one of the very few who can call faustus5 a 'friend' on these boards.
Enjoy! LOL
I heard his opinion, and I shared my own back. It's not a hard thing to do. My apologies!
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