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Post by Prime etc. on Aug 19, 2020 19:26:18 GMT
Superman had his underwear on the outside and yet he was being serious with Marlon Brando. It takes greater skill as a filmmaker and actor to make one take a silly costume seriously--many of today aren't up to the challenge required to suspend audience disbelief.
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Post by bud47 on Aug 19, 2020 21:32:20 GMT
Take the head and claws away and you have no idea who that's supposed to be. It's a generic and uninspired tactical uniform that completley shys away from the source material. Nothing more. With the MCU costumes, you can take the head and weapons away and still know which character you're looking at and they still come off as somewhat grounded and not too flamboyant. Bottom line - more MCU, way less Fox. I understand your point of view, of course, but I must say that MCU ruined some characters from a visual standpoint anyway. Thor needed the helmet. You get aprox. 350 ways to make that helmet look cool and "grounded" on film, but they didn't care. Hawkeye's movie costume is just horrid and lifeless. The Hawkeye mask is iconic. Still, they dropped that. So stupid. Wolverine needed his mask, but Fox didn't care and couldn't find a way to make it work. They were too ashamed to even try. Thor had his helmet in two of the films, so at least they tried. In the end it proved to be too cumbersome and ultimately unnecessary. Hawkeye was first and foremost a SHIELD agent and his costume reflected that. It also resembles Fox's X-Men tactical look, which you seem to favor but apparently only when it suits your argument. His mask is hardly iconic, at least not to the same level as Wolverine.
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Post by blockbusted on Aug 19, 2020 23:17:42 GMT
I understand your point of view, of course, but I must say that MCU ruined some characters from a visual standpoint anyway. Thor needed the helmet. You get aprox. 350 ways to make that helmet look cool and "grounded" on film, but they didn't care. Hawkeye's movie costume is just horrid and lifeless. The Hawkeye mask is iconic. Still, they dropped that. So stupid. Wolverine needed his mask, but Fox didn't care and couldn't find a way to make it work. They were too ashamed to even try. Thor had his helmet in two of the films, so at least they tried. In the end it proved to be too cumbersome and ultimately unnecessary. Hawkeye was first and foremost a SHIELD agent and his costume reflected that. It also resembles Fox's X-Men tactical look, which you seem to favor but apparently only when it suits your argument. His mask is hardly iconic, at least not to the same level as Wolverine. Also, doesn't Hawkeye's film costume have SOME basis from the comics?
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Post by ThatGuy on Aug 20, 2020 2:12:51 GMT
Wolverine needed his mask, but Fox didn't care and couldn't find a way to make it work. They were too ashamed to even try. Thor had his helmet in two of the films, so at least they tried. In the end it proved to be too cumbersome and ultimately unnecessary. Hawkeye was first and foremost a SHIELD agent and his costume reflected that. It also resembles Fox's X-Men tactical look, which you seem to favor but apparently only when it suits your argument. His mask is hardly iconic, at least not to the same level as Wolverine. Also, doesn't Hawkeye's film costume have SOME basis from the comics? The Ultimates costume. The Ultron one is closer to his original comics with the purple stripes down the front.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Aug 20, 2020 13:07:14 GMT
I understand your point of view, of course, but I must say that MCU ruined some characters from a visual standpoint anyway. Thor needed the helmet. You get aprox. 350 ways to make that helmet look cool and "grounded" on film, but they didn't care. Hawkeye's movie costume is just horrid and lifeless. The Hawkeye mask is iconic. Still, they dropped that. So stupid. Hawkeye was first and foremost a SHIELD agent and his costume reflected that. It also resembles Fox's X-Men tactical look, which you seem to favor but apparently only when it suits your argument. His mask is hardly iconic, at least not to the same level as Wolverine. I know that Hawkeye's costume is tactical like the Fox ones, but I don't like its design. It's just my personal taste. I know that the Hawkeye mask is not iconic like the Wolverine mask, but Clint Burton needed to cover his identity in the MCU World anyway, wherever Logan didn't need that in the Fox World. Even if Clint was a SHIELD agent, he was also fighting as a primary member of a very popular team of superheroes, and he got a family. Wolverine, in the original timeline, was the member of a secret and obscure mutant strike force team.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 20, 2020 13:29:34 GMT
Hawkeye was first and foremost a SHIELD agent and his costume reflected that. It also resembles Fox's X-Men tactical look, which you seem to favor but apparently only when it suits your argument. His mask is hardly iconic, at least not to the same level as Wolverine. I know that Hawkeye's costume is tactical like the Fox ones, but I don't like its design. It's just my personal taste. I know that the Hawkeye mask is not iconic like the Wolverine mask, but Clint Burton needed to cover his identity in the MCU World anyway, wherever Logan didn't need that in the Fox World. Even if Clint was a SHIELD agent, he was also fighting as a primary member of a very popular team of superheroes, and he got a family. Wolverine, in the original timeline, was the member of a secret and obscure mutant strike force team. Exactly Supperhero.
MCU are just as ashamed in giving their characters masks yet they demand Fox
Wolverine not having a mask in Fox films makes sense as you say he is not a government spy and his loner personality means he doesn't make a big deal of situations and often drifts one town to the next to keep his tracks clean as we saw in Xmen 1. Only mcu kids would forcibly want him to wear a mask in a scenario that doesn't warrant it story wise for fan service so they can geek out. That’s why Mangold refused in The Wolverine.
And btw, Hawkeye was supposedly retired right after age of ultron because he wanted to protect his family right? Yet comes back immediately in civil war because they needed the cool contrived big airport fight to get that fan service in! Another example of actions and consequences meaning nothing in MCU. However Logan, as the storytelling is better, after X-men 3 realized that people he loves tend to die when he's in a conflict. So to prevent anyone that was close to him from getting hurt, he voluntarily exiled himself into the Rocky Mountains to live as a hermit. Only through consistent pleaing and convincing does Logan listen to Yukio and bring him back to civilization as he agreed one day in Japan to see the old man die and return to his life in the mountains. Hawkeye for no apparent reason other than he gets bored and makes a joke about he was supposed to go water skiing with his kids or something. It's not a tough or compelling decision for hawkeye to return to danger like it is for Logan.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 20, 2020 13:30:16 GMT
Still arguing about x-men colour and costumes lmao
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Post by bud47 on Aug 20, 2020 14:05:26 GMT
I know that Hawkeye's costume is tactical like the Fox ones, but I don't like its design. It's just my personal taste. I know that the Hawkeye mask is not iconic like the Wolverine mask, but Clint Burton needed to cover his identity in the MCU World anyway, wherever Logan didn't need that in the Fox World. Even if Clint was a SHIELD agent, he was also fighting as a primary member of a very popular team of superheroes, and he got a family. Wolverine, in the original timeline, was the member of a secret and obscure mutant strike force team. Exactly Supperhero.
MCU are just as ashamed in giving their characters masks yet they demand Fox
Wolverine not having a mask in Fox films makes sense as you say he is not a government spy and his loner personality means he doesn't make a big deal of situations and often drifts one town to the next to keep his tracks clean as we saw in Xmen 1. Only mcu kids would forcibly want him to wear a mask in a scenario that doesn't warrant it story wise for fan service so they can geek out. That’s why Mangold refused in The Wolverine.
And btw, Hawkeye was supposedly retired right after age of ultron because he wanted to protect his family right? Yet comes back immediately in civil war because they needed the cool contrived big airport fight to get that fan service in! Another example of actions and consequences meaning nothing in MCU. However Logan, as the storytelling is better, after X-men 3 realized that people he loves tend to die when he's in a conflict. So to prevent anyone that was close to him from getting hurt, he voluntarily exiled himself into the Rocky Mountains to live as a hermit. Only through consistent pleaing and convincing does Logan listen to Yukio and bring him back to civilization as he agreed one day in Japan to see the old man die and return to his life in the mountains. Hawkeye for no apparent reason other than he gets bored and makes a joke about he was supposed to go water skiing with his kids or something. It's not a tough or compelling decision for hawkeye to return to danger like it is for Logan.
As always you're comparing two different types of films with very different styles and very different purposes. The only thing they have in common is that they are comic book films. For you, the unnecessary need to compare them and deem which one is better has always been a result of your constant bitterness and need to instigate endless arguments which will most likely result in your next ban. Enjoy the lift while it lasts.
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Post by ThatGuy on Aug 20, 2020 14:06:59 GMT
Hawkeye was first and foremost a SHIELD agent and his costume reflected that. It also resembles Fox's X-Men tactical look, which you seem to favor but apparently only when it suits your argument. His mask is hardly iconic, at least not to the same level as Wolverine. I know that Hawkeye's costume is tactical like the Fox ones, but I don't like its design. It's just my personal taste. I know that the Hawkeye mask is not iconic like the Wolverine mask, but Clint Burton needed to cover his identity in the MCU World anyway, wherever Logan didn't need that in the Fox World. Even if Clint was a SHIELD agent, he was also fighting as a primary member of a very popular team of superheroes, and he got a family. Wolverine, in the original timeline, was the member of a secret and obscure mutant strike force team. But no one knew he had a family except Natasha and Fury. So there was no need for him to keep himself secret because he was already out. It was his family ties that wasn't out.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 20, 2020 14:14:37 GMT
As always you're comparing two different types of films with very different styles and very different purposes. The only thing they have in common is that they are comic book films. For you, the unnecessary need to compare them and deem which one is better has always been a result of your constant bitterness and need to instigate endless arguments which will most likely result in your next ban. Enjoy the lift while it lasts. Hey bud as always you continue to defend things which are blatantly watered down. Even the comics story would give hawkeye deeper and meaningful motivations to return from an exile. They did it with him in endgame where he went on a assassins rampage as ronin. He did that because his family was evaporated. But in Civil War he purposefully goes back on his word to retire for the safety of his family and comes back to put himself in immediate danger and his reasons are frivolous at best which makes his actions in Endgame even more paradoxical. Either his family is more important to him than his job or it isn't. Inconsistent writing im afraid. They are necessary to conpare because they are movies about comic characters in a fantastical world.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Aug 20, 2020 14:32:36 GMT
I know that Hawkeye's costume is tactical like the Fox ones, but I don't like its design. It's just my personal taste. I know that the Hawkeye mask is not iconic like the Wolverine mask, but Clint Burton needed to cover his identity in the MCU World anyway, wherever Logan didn't need that in the Fox World. Even if Clint was a SHIELD agent, he was also fighting as a primary member of a very popular team of superheroes, and he got a family. Wolverine, in the original timeline, was the member of a secret and obscure mutant strike force team. However Logan, as the storytelling is better, after X-men 3 realized that people he loves tend to die when he's in a conflict. So to prevent anyone that was close to him from getting hurt, he voluntarily exiled himself into the Rocky Mountains to live as a hermit. Only through consistent pleaing and convincing does Logan listen to Yukio and bring him back to civilization as he agreed one day in Japan to see the old man die and return to his life in the mountains. In the original timeline, by 2008 the X-Men have apparently disbanded and only few mutants still stay at the school. Professor X is apparently dead, Cyclops is dead, Jean Grey is dead. I guess Wolvie milited in the team for some years since the events "The Last Stand", then everything crumbled down.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 20, 2020 14:38:25 GMT
However Logan, as the storytelling is better, after X-men 3 realized that people he loves tend to die when he's in a conflict. So to prevent anyone that was close to him from getting hurt, he voluntarily exiled himself into the Rocky Mountains to live as a hermit. Only through consistent pleaing and convincing does Logan listen to Yukio and bring him back to civilization as he agreed one day in Japan to see the old man die and return to his life in the mountains. In the original timeline, by 2008 the X-Men have apparently disbanded and only few mutants still stay at the school. Professor X is apparently dead, Cyclops is dead, Jean Grey is dead. I guess Wolvie milited in the team for some years since the events "The Last Stand", then everything crumbled down. So according to your timeline, Wolverine leaves the xmen in 2008 after killing Jean in X3 in 2006 and then we get to the events of The Wolverine in 2013. So Logan went into self exile for atleast 5 years. Clint Barton stayed away for less than 12 months lmao i guess his family didnt mean that much to him huh
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Post by dazz on Aug 20, 2020 14:57:13 GMT
In the original timeline, by 2008 the X-Men have apparently disbanded and only few mutants still stay at the school. Professor X is apparently dead, Cyclops is dead, Jean Grey is dead. I guess Wolvie milited in the team for some years since the events "The Last Stand", then everything crumbled down. So according to your timeline, Wolverine leaves the xmen in 2008 after killing Jean in X3 in 2006 and then we get to the events of The Wolverine in 2013. So Logan went into self exile for atleast 5 years. Clint Barton stayed away for less than 12 months lmao i guess his family didnt mean that much to him huh Not quite, read his timeline if you want, it doesn't fit imo but those dates are very wrong according to him, what dates you said works for me though. But one thing Logan came out of exile due to a random dude he saved 70 years earlier seeks him out when he's on his death bed, Logan's been betrayed and used way too many times to buy into this but still does, low and behold the old fucker wanted to use Logan and steal his healing for himself. Clint on the other hand is contacted by his old team mate Cap, who despite Cap's actual fallings most see as a paragon of righteousness, Cap needs allies to get Bucky out of the country so they can stop a crazed bad guy unleashing an army of Hydra super soldiers onto the world. Which one is more frivolous again? random dude Logan helped 70 years ago and never mentions again wants to see him once more, or former team mate, national hero and legend needs help preventing a major supervillain threat? hmm.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Aug 20, 2020 14:59:04 GMT
In the original timeline, by 2008 the X-Men have apparently disbanded and only few mutants still stay at the school. Professor X is apparently dead, Cyclops is dead, Jean Grey is dead. I guess Wolvie milited in the team for some years since the events "The Last Stand", then everything crumbled down. So according to your timeline, Wolverine leaves the xmen in 2008 after killing Jean in X3 in 2006 and then we get to the events of The Wolverine in 2013. So Logan went into self exile for atleast 5 years. Clint Barton stayed away for less than 12 months lmao i guess his family didnt mean that much to him huh No wait. X1 and X2 occurred in 1999. "The Last Stand" occurred in 2000. Jean Grey died in 2000. Wolverine milited in the team for more years, because he told Magneto "I've fought you FOR YEARS" (or so) in DOFP. He left the X-Men in 2006. Less or more. "The Wolverine" occurs in 2008. The post-credits sequence occurs in 2010.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Aug 20, 2020 15:01:16 GMT
Guys:
This is not MCU vs. Fox. We changed music some weeks ago.
I've just told Bud that I sorely miss the Hawkeye mask, because there were millions of ways to introduce that in the MCU World. It's a huge loss for the character.
Wolverine has wolf hair, claws and a distinctive look even without mask and costume.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 20, 2020 15:06:55 GMT
So according to your timeline, Wolverine leaves the xmen in 2008 after killing Jean in X3 in 2006 and then we get to the events of The Wolverine in 2013. So Logan went into self exile for atleast 5 years. Clint Barton stayed away for less than 12 months lmao i guess his family didnt mean that much to him huh Not quite, read his timeline if you want, it doesn't fit imo but those dates are very wrong according to him, what dates you said works for me though. But one thing Logan came out of exile due to a random dude he saved 70 years earlier seeks him out when he's on his death bed, Logan's been betrayed and used way too many times to buy into this but still does, low and behold the old fucker wanted to use Logan and steal his healing for himself. Clint on the other hand is contacted by his old team mate Cap, who despite Cap's actual fallings most see as a paragon of righteousness, Cap needs allies to get Bucky out of the country so they can stop a crazed bad guy unleashing an army of Hydra super soldiers onto the world. Which one is more frivolous again? random dude Logan helped 70 years ago and never mentions again wants to see him once more, or former team mate, national hero and legend needs help preventing a major supervillain threat? hmm. Superhero has a great timeline, but I'm not sure where he gets 2008 is the year when Logan left the x-mansion, because if I recall it isn't exactly mentioned in the movies. Logan is adamant he does not want to leave Canada and go all the way to Japan in a air[plane which he hates, so it takes a lot of convincing from Yukio who persuades him all he needs to do is spend 1 day in Japan and then he can leave and hints that he wants an honorable death which might be on offer. No im not having that Clint is coming back just for Cap. If thats the case why would he retire after the events in age of ultron where he was brainwashed (again). Clint left because as Ageof ultron showed he had a wife and kids he wanted to see grow up and put their safety first. Leaving that because cap offered him a frivolous mission of escorting a known criminal from country to country seems too far fetched. It's believable in Endgame because the world is at stake and deaths could be reversed and he has nothing to lose. In civil war he has everything to lose it makes no sense. Logan has nothing to lose either by going to japan, but the hint given is that he wants to die anyway
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Aug 20, 2020 15:07:25 GMT
So according to your timeline, Wolverine leaves the xmen in 2008 after killing Jean in X3 in 2006 and then we get to the events of The Wolverine in 2013. So Logan went into self exile for atleast 5 years. Clint Barton stayed away for less than 12 months lmao i guess his family didnt mean that much to him huh Not quite, read his timeline if you want, it doesn't fit imo but those dates are very wrong according to him, what dates you said works for me though. But one thing Logan came out of exile due to a random dude he saved 70 years earlier seeks him out when he's on his death bed, Logan's been betrayed and used way too many times to buy into this but still does, low and behold the old fucker wanted to use Logan and steal his healing for himself. Clint on the other hand is contacted by his old team mate Cap, who despite Cap's actual fallings most see as a paragon of righteousness, Cap needs allies to get Bucky out of the country so they can stop a crazed bad guy unleashing an army of Hydra super soldiers onto the world. Which one is more frivolous again? random dude Logan helped 70 years ago and never mentions again wants to see him once more, or former team mate, national hero and legend needs help preventing a major supervillain threat? hmm. Dazz: Logan was still retired by the time "The Wolverine" occurred. He wasn't an X-Man anymore. He's a man of honor, that's why he agreed to travel to Japan. It fits the character a lot to do so. That's pure Wolverine. It doesn't affect his status as "RETIRED X-MAN" and "former superhero". That said, I'm not against Clint returning in CW. I just wished he was wearing a mask from the first Avengers movie.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 20, 2020 15:09:32 GMT
So according to your timeline, Wolverine leaves the xmen in 2008 after killing Jean in X3 in 2006 and then we get to the events of The Wolverine in 2013. So Logan went into self exile for atleast 5 years. Clint Barton stayed away for less than 12 months lmao i guess his family didnt mean that much to him huh No wait. X1 and X2 occurred in 1999. "The Last Stand" occurred in 2000. Jean Grey died in 2000. Wolverine milited in the team for more years, because he told Magneto "I've fought you FOR YEARS" (or so) in DOFP. He left the X-Men in 2006. Less or more. "The Wolverine" occurs in 2008. The post-credits sequence occurs in 2010. So he was away for atleast 8 years, even more impressive
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Post by dazz on Aug 20, 2020 15:20:54 GMT
Hawkeye was first and foremost a SHIELD agent and his costume reflected that. It also resembles Fox's X-Men tactical look, which you seem to favor but apparently only when it suits your argument. His mask is hardly iconic, at least not to the same level as Wolverine. I know that Hawkeye's costume is tactical like the Fox ones, but I don't like its design. It's just my personal taste. I know that the Hawkeye mask is not iconic like the Wolverine mask, but Clint Burton needed to cover his identity in the MCU World anyway, wherever Logan didn't need that in the Fox World. Even if Clint was a SHIELD agent, he was also fighting as a primary member of a very popular team of superheroes, and he got a family. Wolverine, in the original timeline, was the member of a secret and obscure mutant strike force team. Sort of but not really, Clint should have hid his face but keep in mind until Loki whammies him he's not being publicly seen, so he doesn't need one, once he's got his shit together they rush out to stop Loki, his identity is not a major factor in this instance, so once they save the world and his identity is out there, which even then is it? he's been seen but has he been caught on camera? if not then he doesn't need a mask, the risks of his job aren't worse than that of an FBI agent really, do they wear masks? Clint's personal life is kept off the record to give his family protection, which is also why they live in the middle of nowhere he does the hide your identity thing, just not by wearing a mask. It's not like Clint was a attention whore like Tony or a puppet like Cap was at points, we don't see Clint doing PSA's or hosting major media events. Also Logan kind of did need to cover his face, he's Logan after all, not like he's a mild mannered guy, does a guy who likes to go out drinking and fighting really want his face to be seen because he's also stormed the Paris peace talks, been present at an attack on the white house, had a stand off with police which led to him getting shot in the head, been at a terrorist attack on a train, had a multiple brawls throughout Japan, and so on, over the course of many decades plus god knows what else over the century plus he's been alive across two timelines, where as Clint when he isn't being Hawkeye is just the average looking dad and husband. Though he could have had a a mask in one of the movies just tone it down a little like they did Cap's.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 20, 2020 15:25:01 GMT
I know that Hawkeye's costume is tactical like the Fox ones, but I don't like its design. It's just my personal taste. I know that the Hawkeye mask is not iconic like the Wolverine mask, but Clint Burton needed to cover his identity in the MCU World anyway, wherever Logan didn't need that in the Fox World. Even if Clint was a SHIELD agent, he was also fighting as a primary member of a very popular team of superheroes, and he got a family. Wolverine, in the original timeline, was the member of a secret and obscure mutant strike force team. Also Logan kind of did need to cover his face, he's Logan after all, not like he's a mild mannered guy, does a guy who likes to go out drinking and fighting really want his face to be seen because he's also stormed the Paris peace talks, been present at an attack on the white house, had a stand off with police which led to him getting shot in the head, been at a terrorist attack on a train, had a multiple brawls throughout Japan, and so on, over the course of many decades plus god knows what else over the century plus he's been alive across two timelines, where as Clint when he isn't being Hawkeye is just the average looking dad and husband. There's a difference between clint and Logan wearing masks. Logan cannot be killed or hurt. So he doesnt need the mask, he can do all those things all over the world and no body who wants revenge can do anything to him even if they track him down
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