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Post by MCDemuth on May 2, 2017 21:27:12 GMT
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_ConstitutionThe First Amendment (1791)..."prohibits Congress from obstructing the exercise of certain individual freedoms: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and right to petition. Its Free Exercise Clause guarantees a person's right to hold whatever religious beliefs he or she wants, and to freely exercise that belief, and its Establishment Clause prevents the federal government from creating an official national church or favoring one set of religious beliefs over another. The amendment guarantees an individual's right to express and to be exposed to a wide range of opinions and views. It was intended to ensure a free exchange of ideas, even unpopular ones. It also guarantees an individual's right to physically gather or associate with others in groups for economic, political or religious purposes. Additionally, it guarantees an individual's right to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Well... I guess that means any number of citizens, even children, can gather together to say the Pledge Of Allegiance, with the words "Under God" in it, if they wish to do so... Now I guess the only two questions that really matter are... 1.) Is it even possible to OFFICIALLY remove the words "Under God"? 2.) If it is changed, Will that stop people from saying the words, if they wish to say them?
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Post by cupcakes on May 2, 2017 21:48:55 GMT
tpfkar How is that related to the op? Leaving aside what "really matter"s, why would this even be a question? What is added by legislation (in 1861 or 1954 or anytime) can be removed with legislation, assuming compatibility with the Constitution. Depends on situation, I suppose. Teachers are generally given pretty wide latitude in dealing with class disruption. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
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Post by Karl Aksel on May 3, 2017 4:39:09 GMT
Just a question about The Preamble of the United States: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Does this word "blessing" have any godly connotation? Not in the slightest. It is "we the people" who secure these blessings, not God, and the blessings are of liberty, not of something spiritual. In English, even today, "blessing" is frequently used irreligiously. For example, "she was blessed with a perfect body" - that's something even atheists might say. Similarly, if you say "give me those goddamn keys", you do not actually mean that the keys have been cursed by God.
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Post by Karl Aksel on May 3, 2017 4:51:24 GMT
Now I guess the only two questions that really matter are... 1.) Is it even possible to OFFICIALLY remove the words "Under God"? 2.) If it is changed, Will that stop people from saying the words, if they wish to say them? 1. Every bit as officially as it was put in, surely. 2. What stopped people from not saying those words when they were introduced? The present generation is going to say it the way they were brought up to, and a number of them are going to try their best to bring up the next generation the same way, but the old version would quickly go the way of the dodo. Similarly, the Lord's prayer has undergone a number of changes in Norwegian over the past couple centuries to accomodate the evolution of the Norwegian language. It's been a slightly new version roughly every 40-50 years, so my father learned one version, I learned another, and today there's yet another. Although the content hasn't changed, it is an annoyance for older generations to have to unlearn the old ways, and most will simply stick to what they know. But the old ways will make way for the new, no matter what the old-timers have to say about the matter. "One nation, under my parents"? "One nation, under science"? I don't think so. It is fraught with problems to either elevate one's parents or science to be more important than one's country, or conversely to make one's country subservient to either one's parents or science. That defeats the purpose of the oath to the country in the first place. "I swear allegiance to my country, but to my parents come before my country just so you know." People who do not believe in God (and "God" does not mean "creator", by the way - most gods are not creator gods), do not typically elevate other things to god-like status. And to someone who doesn't feel their country should be "under" anyone or anything, much less a fictional being (because that is what God is to them), "under God" trivializes the pledge, rendering it meaningless. If you are to invoke something you don't believe in, you take the pledge that much less seriously.
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