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Post by gadreel on May 3, 2017 20:25:05 GMT
Bad being subjective had all the relevance, one persons bad school is another persons good school, but no one with an informed opinion thinks that vaccines are bad, your analogy is terrrible. I draw the line here where others are harmed because the parents have some measure of responsibility over their own child and there could be a convoluted argument that withholding medical treatment is the right thing to do, but withholding vaccinations from a child impacts those children that cannot be vaccinated or for whom the vaccination does not work, thusly endangering children that the parents have no conceivable rights over. Re bad: I know that's why I said whoever this analogy is presented to can just picture whatever they consider a bad school. What does the fact that someone with an informed opinion would know vacines are not bad have to do with the analogy? I don't think vaccines are bad. Re the line: Ok why does parents having responsibility over their own children make harming other children not ok? Why take away parental power in this case? I am sorry I cannot translate that first sentence. People do think vaccines are bad and withhold vaccination because of that. I had not realised we were discussing only what you do. Harming any children is not ok, but I can see that there is a valid argument that parents have the right to raise their children how they wish.
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Post by gadreel on May 3, 2017 20:29:01 GMT
One cannot be jealous of that which does not exist. Now I don't claim to be any kind of genius, nor do I have a high end website to display to all and sundry the fruits of my superior thinking, but I hold down a relatively high end job in the technical sector so I figure I do alright. No I don't think I feel lacking enough in intellect to be jealous of others. You're not jealous of a the guy who complained that a mathematical model of a spreading disease didn't feature any pictures of people with the disease? How can you not be jealous of that guy? Well when you put it that way, maybe the best option is to top myself as I am clearly an intellectual burden on society.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on May 3, 2017 21:30:47 GMT
Re bad: I know that's why I said whoever this analogy is presented to can just picture whatever they consider a bad school. What does the fact that someone with an informed opinion would know vacines are not bad have to do with the analogy? I don't think vaccines are bad. Re the line: Ok why does parents having responsibility over their own children make harming other children not ok? Why take away parental power in this case? I am sorry I cannot translate that first sentence. People do think vaccines are bad and withhold vaccination because of that. I had not realised we were discussing only what you do. Harming any children is not ok, but I can see that there is a valid argument that parents have the right to raise their children how they wish. What do you need translating? It seemed pretty straightforward to me. You brought up that nobody with an informed opinion would think vaccines are bad, I was confused why you brought that up and I clarified that I don't think vacines are bad because I was not sure if you thought I believed they were bad. Ok so you just completely ignored my question.
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althea
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Post by althea on May 3, 2017 22:56:49 GMT
Parental power over their children is not absolute...especially when it may result in harm to the child. Otherwise, child abuse and neglect wouldn't be a thing. Where do you draw the line and why? Part of living in society is being part of a community, I'm not someone who believes in individual rights to the detriment of others. Generally, I draw the line at the place we collectively decide to through the law of the land. The tricky part when it comes to anti-vaxxers is balancing the rights of the children having vaccination withheld from them for ideological reasons with the rights of the other children in the community, which is where the debate over public policy such as excluding such families from social security payments or preschools comes into it.
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Post by gadreel on May 4, 2017 2:08:22 GMT
I am sorry I cannot translate that first sentence. People do think vaccines are bad and withhold vaccination because of that. I had not realised we were discussing only what you do. Harming any children is not ok, but I can see that there is a valid argument that parents have the right to raise their children how they wish. What do you need translating? It seemed pretty straightforward to me. You brought up that nobody with an informed opinion would think vaccines are bad, I was confused why you brought that up and I clarified that I don't think vacines are bad because I was not sure if you thought I believed they were bad. Ok so you just completely ignored my question. I was pretty certain I answered your question, was there some thing I missed?
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Post by gadreel on May 4, 2017 2:09:18 GMT
Where do you draw the line and why? Part of living in society is being part of a community, I'm not someone who believes in individual rights to the detriment of others. Generally, I draw the line at the place we collectively decide to through the law of the land. The tricky part when it comes to anti-vaxxers is balancing the rights of the children having vaccination withheld from them for ideological reasons with the rights of the other children in the community, which is where the debate over public policy such as excluding such families from social security payments or preschools comes into it. There is no right to withhold vaccines for ideological reasons, that is a terrible precedent to set.
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althea
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Post by althea on May 4, 2017 4:30:38 GMT
I agree.
I think it is important to distinguish between those who can not vaccinate their children - say, for (actual, not just perceived) medical reasons - and those who will not, be it for religious reasons or anything else that boils down to "but I don't believe in it."
Over the past couple of years, the law is being changed to reflect that attitude held by the majority of the community. You can't just choose to withhold modern medicine from your children, that infringes upon their rights as individuals.
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Post by gadreel on May 4, 2017 19:11:12 GMT
I agree. I think it is important to distinguish between those who can not vaccinate their children - say, for (actual, not just perceived) medical reasons - and those who will not, be it for religious reasons or anything else that boils down to "but I don't believe in it." Over the past couple of years, the law is being changed to reflect that attitude held by the majority of the community. You can't just choose to withhold modern medicine from your children, that infringes upon their rights as individuals. Its a good push, I actually have friends who are anit-vaccers, it saddens me because they are actually otherwise quite intelligent one even works in the health industry.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 19:33:59 GMT
I agree. I think it is important to distinguish between those who can not vaccinate their children - say, for (actual, not just perceived) medical reasons - and those who will not, be it for religious reasons or anything else that boils down to "but I don't believe in it." Over the past couple of years, the law is being changed to reflect that attitude held by the majority of the community. You can't just choose to withhold modern medicine from your children, that infringes upon their rights as individuals. Its a good push, I actually have friends who are anit-vaccers, it saddens me because they are actually otherwise quite intelligent one even works in the health industry. It saddens and worries me to Gad. I have a young girl who will be attending nursery school in the next few years and these selfish ill informed parents could potentially jeopardise my child's health with their actions. I have long been a proponent of compulsory vaccinations for children. However the MMR hysteria which originated in the UK has put pay to the that for now. What I support is exclusion from nurseries and schools of any unvaccinated children,as well as exclusion from doctors surgeries. There have been several outbreaks in the UK in the last several years,due to unvaccinated children and some fatalities as a result. Since there has not been one iota of prove of vaccinations damaging the vast majority of children who take them then there is no logical reason not to give them to your child. In my opinion not vaccinating your child is foolish and immoral,but the danger you pose to other children by not doing so is criminal.
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Post by gadreel on May 4, 2017 19:55:11 GMT
Its a good push, I actually have friends who are anit-vaccers, it saddens me because they are actually otherwise quite intelligent one even works in the health industry. It saddens and worries me to Gad. I have a young girl who will be attending nursery school in the next few years and these selfish ill informed parents could potentially jeopardise my child's health with their actions. I have long been a proponent of compulsory vaccinations for children. However the MMR hysteria which originated in the UK has put pay to the that for now. What I support is exclusion from nurseries and schools of any unvaccinated children,as well as exclusion from doctors surgeries. There have been several outbreaks in the UK in the last several years,due to unvaccinated children and some fatalities as a result. Since there has not been one iota of prove of vaccinations damaging the vast majority of children who take them then there is no logical reason not to give them to your child. In my opinion not vaccinating your child is foolish and immoral,but the danger you pose to other children by not doing so is criminal. Agree wholeheartedly.
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Post by Cinemachinery on May 4, 2017 20:11:45 GMT
Its a good push, I actually have friends who are anit-vaccers, it saddens me because they are actually otherwise quite intelligent one even works in the health industry. It saddens and worries me to Gad. I have a young girl who will be attending nursery school in the next few years and these selfish ill informed parents could potentially jeopardise my child's health with their actions. I have long been a proponent of compulsory vaccinations for children. However the MMR hysteria which originated in the UK has put pay to the that for now. What I support is exclusion from nurseries and schools of any unvaccinated children,as well as exclusion from doctors surgeries. There have been several outbreaks in the UK in the last several years,due to unvaccinated children and some fatalities as a result. Since there has not been one iota of prove of vaccinations damaging the vast majority of children who take them then there is no logical reason not to give them to your child. In my opinion not vaccinating your child is foolish and immoral,but the danger you pose to other children by not doing so is criminal. We found out a couple of parents had lied about their kid's vaccinations in our daughter's pre-K class a little over a year ago when the kid brought whooping cough into the classroom.
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Post by gadreel on May 4, 2017 20:19:38 GMT
It saddens and worries me to Gad. I have a young girl who will be attending nursery school in the next few years and these selfish ill informed parents could potentially jeopardise my child's health with their actions. I have long been a proponent of compulsory vaccinations for children. However the MMR hysteria which originated in the UK has put pay to the that for now. What I support is exclusion from nurseries and schools of any unvaccinated children,as well as exclusion from doctors surgeries. There have been several outbreaks in the UK in the last several years,due to unvaccinated children and some fatalities as a result. Since there has not been one iota of prove of vaccinations damaging the vast majority of children who take them then there is no logical reason not to give them to your child. In my opinion not vaccinating your child is foolish and immoral,but the danger you pose to other children by not doing so is criminal. We found out a couple of parents had lied about their kid's vaccinations in our daughter's pre-K class a little over a year ago when the kid brought whooping cough into the classroom. That makes me want to smash your mandolin
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 20:19:42 GMT
It saddens and worries me to Gad. I have a young girl who will be attending nursery school in the next few years and these selfish ill informed parents could potentially jeopardise my child's health with their actions. I have long been a proponent of compulsory vaccinations for children. However the MMR hysteria which originated in the UK has put pay to the that for now. What I support is exclusion from nurseries and schools of any unvaccinated children,as well as exclusion from doctors surgeries. There have been several outbreaks in the UK in the last several years,due to unvaccinated children and some fatalities as a result. Since there has not been one iota of prove of vaccinations damaging the vast majority of children who take them then there is no logical reason not to give them to your child. In my opinion not vaccinating your child is foolish and immoral,but the danger you pose to other children by not doing so is criminal. We found out a couple of parents had lied about their kid's vaccinations in our daughter's pre-K class a little over a year ago when the kid brought whooping cough into the classroom. Hopefully no one else was affected and the child recovered. This is a criminal act in my opinion and charges of child endangerment should be levelled against the parents. It makes my blood run cold to think of these irresponsible fools being parents. Tell me Cine have these parents been named and shamed on social media so every parent in the area is warned about their child.
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Post by Cinemachinery on May 4, 2017 20:23:51 GMT
We found out a couple of parents had lied about their kid's vaccinations in our daughter's pre-K class a little over a year ago when the kid brought whooping cough into the classroom. Hopefully no one else was affected and the child recovered. This is a criminal act in my opinion and charges of child endangerment should be levelled against the parents. It makes my blood run cold to think of these irresponsible fools being parents. Tell me Cine have these parents been named and shamed on social media so every parent in the area is warned about their child. Nah, but they were ejected from the program due to lying about the kids medical status. None of the kids in the class were affected, but the kid herself had a months-old sibling. Guess who caught the whooping cough? Never heard from or of them after that so not sure how the newborn came out of it. Whooping cough can kill newborns so hopefully they got lucky.
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Post by scienceisgod on May 4, 2017 22:20:21 GMT
Hopefully no one else was affected and the child recovered. This is a criminal act in my opinion and charges of child endangerment should be levelled against the parents. It makes my blood run cold to think of these irresponsible fools being parents. Tell me Cine have these parents been named and shamed on social media so every parent in the area is warned about their child. Nah, but they were ejected from the program due to lying about the kids medical status. None of the kids in the class were affected, but the kid herself had a months-old sibling. Guess who caught the whooping cough? Never heard from or of them after that so not sure how the newborn came out of it. Whooping cough can kill newborns so hopefully they got lucky. It depends somewhat on whether the mother ever had whooping cough herself. If she did, she'd have immunity that would be passed on to her infant, temporarily. If she didn't, and had the vaccine instead, whatever immunity she had would be gone. That's a bit ironic. Luckily, we aren't all still stuck in the 1700s, and people who contract whooping cough are extremely unlikely to experience any lasting damage, certainly not death. By the way, how many kids in that class can say they don't have the lifelong autoimmune condition of asthma?
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on May 4, 2017 22:28:03 GMT
Part of living in society is being part of a community, I'm not someone who believes in individual rights to the detriment of others. Generally, I draw the line at the place we collectively decide to through the law of the land. The tricky part when it comes to anti-vaxxers is balancing the rights of the children having vaccination withheld from them for ideological reasons with the rights of the other children in the community, which is where the debate over public policy such as excluding such families from social security payments or preschools comes into it. There is no right to withhold vaccines for ideological reasons, that is a terrible precedent to set. Please explain why your think you answered the following. Ok why does parents having responsibility over their own children make harming other children not ok? Why take away parental power in this case?
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Post by gadreel on May 5, 2017 1:49:36 GMT
There is no right to withhold vaccines for ideological reasons, that is a terrible precedent to set. Please explain why your think you answered the following. Ok why does parents having responsibility over their own children make harming other children not ok? Why take away parental power in this case? I think this: Harming any children is not ok, but I can see that there is a valid argument that parents have the right to raise their children how they wish. answers the question, what further clarification do you need? Or maybe I am misunderstanding the question?
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althea
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Post by althea on May 5, 2017 5:57:31 GMT
It saddens and worries me to Gad. I have a young girl who will be attending nursery school in the next few years and these selfish ill informed parents could potentially jeopardise my child's health with their actions. I have long been a proponent of compulsory vaccinations for children. However the MMR hysteria which originated in the UK has put pay to the that for now. What I support is exclusion from nurseries and schools of any unvaccinated children,as well as exclusion from doctors surgeries. There have been several outbreaks in the UK in the last several years,due to unvaccinated children and some fatalities as a result. Since there has not been one iota of prove of vaccinations damaging the vast majority of children who take them then there is no logical reason not to give them to your child. In my opinion not vaccinating your child is foolish and immoral,but the danger you pose to other children by not doing so is criminal. We found out a couple of parents had lied about their kid's vaccinations in our daughter's pre-K class a little over a year ago when the kid brought whooping cough into the classroom. The law should treat that in much the same way it treats people who have unprotected sex without disclosing their HIV/AIDS. It's basically endangering the lives of others through wilful neglect.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on May 5, 2017 16:45:46 GMT
Please explain why your think you answered the following. Ok why does parents having responsibility over their own children make harming other children not ok? Why take away parental power in this case? I think this: Harming any children is not ok, but I can see that there is a valid argument that parents have the right to raise their children how they wish. answers the question, what further clarification do you need? Or maybe I am misunderstanding the question? So you have changed your answer then? First you said parental responsibility now you are bringig up parental rights so which is it? Why does parental rights inclide the right to harm their children? Why do you not allow sexual abuse but allow things like making their children fat. Obviously in terms of the harm they cause they are the same but at what amount of harm do yiu draw the line and why do you draw it there?
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Post by scienceisgod on May 5, 2017 17:09:05 GMT
We found out a couple of parents had lied about their kid's vaccinations in our daughter's pre-K class a little over a year ago when the kid brought whooping cough into the classroom. Hopefully no one else was affected and the child recovered. This is a criminal act in my opinion and charges of child endangerment should be levelled against the parents. It makes my blood run cold to think of these irresponsible fools being parents. Tell me Cine have these parents been named and shamed on social media so every parent in the area is warned about their child. You sound extremely confident that vaccines work. Here's an idea. Instead of bossing other people around and making them do something for you, why don't you do something for yourself? Make a better vaccine so you can actually feel protected.
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