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Post by Arlon10 on Dec 3, 2020 0:22:41 GMT
Exactly. You're done then? That's great, bye. The advice is grow up and learn to make choices, decisions, and commitments in the absence of absolute and objective guides, without projecting out into the cosmos. You forgot to mention the consensus of scientists, or did you change your mind about that?
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 4:09:37 GMT
Well, I'm not saying they were good people, Sci. We deal with shit like that as best we can, but if there's anything after death, it's out of our hands at that point. If you were die and find out that Hitler accepted God's forgiveness, what would you do? Judaism doesn’t quite see things this way. One of the 13 Principles of Faith for Jews is called divine justice. It’s something we don’t expect to see. Whatever divine justice God exercises on Hitler is God’s business, not ours. Justice is utterly useless with universal salvation.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 4:19:28 GMT
Perfect forgiveness? I've heard it said it's there for the taking, you just have to accept it. Perfect forgiveness is given without the asking. God's forgiveness is conditional, and the conditions aren't even relevant to the sins. God wants us to repent for how we have hurt him, not for how we have hurt one another. That's not how I heard it. There's this whole thing about Jesus bridging the gap and somehow that means we've already been forgiven, we just have to accept it because you can't give what won't be taken. Refusing that gift is the only "sin" that won't be forgiven because it can't be.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 4:20:13 GMT
This isn’t the Jewish perspective. I don't think that's the Christian perspective, either.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 4:25:13 GMT
Considering our present situation in this world of ours...like, on the verge of total global collapse...that after 2500 years we are still arguing about God’s perfection is hilarious.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 4:49:36 GMT
Christians themselves keep ripping each other into smaller, more doctrinaire, less tolerant groups. And don’t give me, “well, the devil” cop-out. I believe Jesus spoke against that. IIRC, it was essentially, "Knock it the fuck off." People agree and disagree about all kinds of things, some of them since the beginning of time. It doesn't make anything true or false. If there is a God, then there's a God regardless of how many don't believe it. So it's God's fault for letting us do it?
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 5:08:01 GMT
I believe Jesus spoke against that. IIRC, it was essentially, "Knock it the fuck off." People agree and disagree about all kinds of things, some of them since the beginning of time. It doesn't make anything true or false. If there is a God, then there's a God regardless of how many don't believe it. So it's God's fault for letting us do it? I’m just saying considering that we are practically done for as a species, why are still arguing? Belief in God or Buddha or whatever has not solved many problems and the really religious people who think they got God on speed-dial cause even more. We try to figure out the Creator and don’t give a shit about his Creation. Therefore, why are we wasting our time on something that isn’t proven and its product is toxic? And I don’t care what people believe; I care about what they do with their beliefs. We've been done for as a species for a gazillion years, Paul. Every generation since the invention of dirt has had their fair share of "The End Is Near!" nutbags. Comparatively speaking, 2020 has been a cakewalk. The problem is the ever-increasing hate and intolerance, and that's up to each and every one of us to solve, not God. And besides, God's solution the first time was to just kill everyone and start over.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 5:26:52 GMT
We've been done for as a species for a gazillion years, Paul. Every generation since the invention of dirt has had their fair share of "The End Is Near!" nutbags. Comparatively speaking, 2020 has been a cakewalk. The problem is the ever-increasing hate and intolerance, and that's up to each and every one of us to solve, not God. And besides, God's solution the first time was to just kill everyone and start over. So, why are you still bothering to argue about it? By your own admission, we’ve made little progress in the religion front. Ex-three star general and pardoned big time liar, Michael Flynn, just begged Trump to declare martial law, neutralize the Constitution, and hold another election with results more in line with the QAnon Conspiracy Prophecy...where is plays a heroic role...because he wants people like me out of the way. Why? Because I’m a liberal queer who is destroying people’s faith in God and tearing apart our nation’s Moral Fiber. But I got a problem if I think that is “hilarious” and think religion is dangerous. Don’t blame God you say...bless your heart. I'm not sure what you think I'm arguing, and I think that second paragraph is out of my league because I don't know wtf you're talking about. If walk up to someone on the street and shoot him in the head, would that be God's fault, too?
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 5:35:03 GMT
I'm not sure what you think I'm arguing, and I think that second paragraph is out of my league because I don't know wtf you're talking about. If walk up to someone on the street and shoot him in the head, would that be God's fault, too? Good night. I guess that's a no. Later.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 5:59:37 GMT
Perfect forgiveness is given without the asking. God's forgiveness is conditional, and the conditions aren't even relevant to the sins. God wants us to repent for how we have hurt him, not for how we have hurt one another. That's not how I heard it. There's this whole thing about Jesus bridging the gap and somehow that means we've already been forgiven, we just have to accept it because you can't give what won't be taken. Refusing that gift is the only "sin" that won't be forgiven because it can't be. That's a condition. Of course you can be forgiven without accepting it. You can be forgiven without knowing it at all, as forgiveness is something exclusively in the heart of the forgiver. You can still forgive me even if I don't want to be forgiven. That is entirely up to you, and my opinion would actually be quite irrelevant.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 3, 2020 6:04:32 GMT
This isn’t the Jewish perspective. The Jewish perspective isn't so much about repentance at all; I am obviously talking about Christianity here, the god of the New Testament. Which, I have to say, is a very odd and unlikely sequel to the Torah. The Jewish perspective is very much about repentance. It’s NOT about hurting God. Rish Hashanah is considered a judgement day. Yom Kippur a week or so later is the Day of Atonement.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 3, 2020 6:07:28 GMT
Judaism doesn’t quite see things this way. One of the 13 Principles of Faith for Jews is called divine justice. It’s something we don’t expect to see. Whatever divine justice God exercises on Hitler is God’s business, not ours. Justice is utterly useless with universal salvation. This is not the Jewish perspective, as I said. We are individuals. Justice is designed to see us this way.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 6:12:31 GMT
We talked yesterday about evil and we both agreed that no individual person can be truly evil, but acting with evil intent makes some virtually evil. And when enough folks get on the same evil wavelength, we know the nasty results. And it’s the results that effect us. So it's God's fault for letting us do it? I don't see how you can think otherwise. If a parent was just looking at one of his kids bullying a younger sibling right in front of him, and not even saying a word in reprimand, we would call that parent negligent. And God is directly responsible for human nature. We did not shape our own personalities - they are a result of human nature, custom designed by God. If God didn't want us to behave like we do, he should have created us with different personalities. If I were to create a robot, giving it "free will", who would be held accountable if and when that robot decided to kill a man? Even if I told it specifically, "don't hurt people!", would that be a valid defence in court? No, because I deliberately programmed it with the ability to disobey me. Any consequence of my brainchild would be on my head, and I'm not even omniscient. If God is supposedly all-knowing, then he would have known what the results of our personalities would be. He knew - and went ahead anyway. Of course he is at fault.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 6:17:13 GMT
The Jewish perspective isn't so much about repentance at all; I am obviously talking about Christianity here, the god of the New Testament. Which, I have to say, is a very odd and unlikely sequel to the Torah. The Jewish perspective is very much about repentance. It’s NOT about hurting God. Rish Hashanah is considered a judgement day. Yom Kippur a week or so later is the Day of Atonement. But that's asking God's forgiveness, not anyone else's. Sins are offences to God, not to man. There is a good degree of overlap, but something is only a sin in religious terms if it offends God.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 6:23:02 GMT
That's not how I heard it. There's this whole thing about Jesus bridging the gap and somehow that means we've already been forgiven, we just have to accept it because you can't give what won't be taken. Refusing that gift is the only "sin" that won't be forgiven because it can't be. That's a condition. Of course you can be forgiven without accepting it. You can be forgiven without knowing it at all, as forgiveness is something exclusively in the heart of the forgiver. You can still forgive me even if I don't want to be forgiven. That is entirely up to you, and my opinion would actually be quite irrelevant. I suppose it's about as conditional as having to move if you want to change your seat. That you are forgiven even if you don't want to be is the crux of this whole issue, is it not? I'd say the problem comes in when someone doesn't think they need to be forgiven, or worse yet, that God is the one who needs to be forgiven by us.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 6:26:11 GMT
So it's God's fault for letting us do it? I don't see how you can think otherwise. If a parent was just looking at one of his kids bullying a younger sibling right in front of him, and not even saying a word in reprimand, we would call that parent negligent. And God is directly responsible for human nature. We did not shape our own personalities - they are a result of human nature, custom designed by God. If God didn't want us to behave like we do, he should have created us with different personalities. If I were to create a robot, giving it "free will", who would be held accountable if and when that robot decided to kill a man? Even if I told it specifically, "don't hurt people!", would that be a valid defence in court? No, because I deliberately programmed it with the ability to disobey me. Any consequence of my brainchild would be on my head, and I'm not even omniscient. If God is supposedly all-knowing, then he would have known what the results of our personalities would be. He knew - and went ahead anyway. Of course he is at fault. If you truly love someone, wouldn't you let them go if they didn't want to be with you? The choice matters.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 6:27:26 GMT
The Jewish perspective is very much about repentance. It’s NOT about hurting God. Rish Hashanah is considered a judgement day. Yom Kippur a week or so later is the Day of Atonement. But that's asking God's forgiveness, not anyone else's. Sins are offences to God, not to man. There is a good degree of overlap, but something is only a sin in religious terms if it offends God. Hurting someone else is an offense to God. No?
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 6:31:20 GMT
Justice is utterly useless with universal salvation. This is not the Jewish perspective, as I said. We are individuals. Justice is designed to see us this way. I thought I remember you saying there is no hell. Only good things for everyone after death.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 6:33:50 GMT
But that's asking God's forgiveness, not anyone else's. Sins are offences to God, not to man. There is a good degree of overlap, but something is only a sin in religious terms if it offends God. Hurting someone else is an offense to God. No? Not automatically. In the Bible, certainly, there are numerous instances where God demands it.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 6:35:59 GMT
I don't see how you can think otherwise. If a parent was just looking at one of his kids bullying a younger sibling right in front of him, and not even saying a word in reprimand, we would call that parent negligent. And God is directly responsible for human nature. We did not shape our own personalities - they are a result of human nature, custom designed by God. If God didn't want us to behave like we do, he should have created us with different personalities. If I were to create a robot, giving it "free will", who would be held accountable if and when that robot decided to kill a man? Even if I told it specifically, "don't hurt people!", would that be a valid defence in court? No, because I deliberately programmed it with the ability to disobey me. Any consequence of my brainchild would be on my head, and I'm not even omniscient. If God is supposedly all-knowing, then he would have known what the results of our personalities would be. He knew - and went ahead anyway. Of course he is at fault. If you truly love someone, wouldn't you let them go if they didn't want to be with you? The choice matters. Let them go where? To hell? Absolutely not. They didn't choose that. And if their choice comes from ignorance, why not show them the truth and let them make an informed choice?
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