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Post by Rodney Farber on Jun 22, 2021 14:59:32 GMT
How do theists explain Satan. Those that have been indoctrinated believe that atheists/apostates are the work of the Devil/Lucifer. How can that be? Atheists don't believe in Satan either, do they? I thought that the only Satan worshipers were Trump, Putin, and a clique of worshipers at the Bramford Co-op.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 22, 2021 15:52:43 GMT
How do theists explain Satan.
Free will, of course (also created by God). Satan chose to rebel. You didn't know this?
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Post by Rodney Farber on Jun 23, 2021 17:32:50 GMT
How do theists explain Satan.
Free will, of course (also created by God). Satan chose to rebel. You didn't know this? So Jehovah/Yahweh, being all powerful and all knowing, made Satan and gave Satan super powers with the knowledge that Satan would turn to evil? How is it that Satan,and only Satan has these super powers? That sounds like lame-rationalization double-talk.
JWs claim that Satan is responsible for apostates. If I have free will such that God does not have the ability to control my actions, how is it that Satan can control me. Is this more double-talk?
Is Free WIll your excuse for the black plague, Covid, poisonous snakes, lung cancer, athlete's foot, and erectile distinction? NO? Why did God invent these?
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 23, 2021 20:57:10 GMT
This is too complicated to even get into and not all religious people are the same or even think about it much.
On average I would guess atheists have thought about this stuff much more in depth, which is why they no longer believe God even exists or has ever existed.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 23, 2021 21:01:07 GMT
Free will, of course (also created by God). Satan chose to rebel. You didn't know this? So Jehovah/Yahweh, being all powerful and all knowing, made Satan and gave Satan super powers with the knowledge that Satan would turn to evil? How is it that Satan,and only Satan has these super powers? That sounds like lame-rationalization double-talk.
JWs claim that Satan is responsible for apostates. If I have free will such that God does not have the ability to control my actions, how is it that Satan can control me. Is this more double-talk?
Is Free WIll your excuse for the black plague, Covid, poisonous snakes, lung cancer, athlete's foot, and erectile distinction? NO? Why did God invent these?
Also if God is all knowing and all powerful there can be no such thing as free will (you touched on this about Satan), which I don't believe exists to any large degree anyway. God created Satan knowing exactly what would happen, which means that God determined which version of reality & Heaven would exist. He could have chose the version where Satan didn't exist at all and being all powerful would have been able to stop any influence from Satan on humanity if he chose the version where he did exist. Fascinating stuff to ponder over and all obviously myth imo. It reeks of human invention.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 23, 2021 21:04:51 GMT
Free will, of course (also created by God). Satan chose to rebel. You didn't know this? But God left Satan's powers intact or how else can he lead so many billions of people astray? Therefore, God must not have been all powerful. Exactly. Either God is all powerful and a monster or God is not all powerful, just incompetent. Or God just doesn't exist.
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Post by Admin on Jun 24, 2021 22:11:32 GMT
Also if God is all knowing and all powerful there can be no such thing as free will Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything.
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gw
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Post by gw on Jun 24, 2021 23:43:15 GMT
Also if God is all knowing and all powerful there can be no such thing as free will Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. That's why the idea of an omnipotent god is nonsense, at least it is if you don't get more specific about the limits of what such omnipotence entails. If god can do anything, then why didn't he do so some other way? The mere act of making a choice defies omnipotence because it narrows the spectrum of possibilities to a single reality. The closest one can get to an omnipotent god is one that makes different similar realities so that they could do in one what they couldn't do in another by the inconvenience of having to make a specific choice.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 0:18:07 GMT
Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. That's why the idea of an omnipotent god is nonsense, at least it is if you don't get more specific about the limits of what such omnipotence entails. If god can do anything, then why didn't he do so some other way? The mere act of making a choice defies omnipotence because it narrows the spectrum of possibilities to a single reality. The closest one can get to an omnipotent god is one that makes different similar realities so that they could do in one what they couldn't do in another by the inconvenience of having to make a specific choice. "The mere act of making a choice defies omnipotence because it narrows the spectrum of possibilities to a single reality." An all knowing and all powerful entity could make a choice without narrowing the spectrum of possibilities to a single reality.
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gw
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Post by gw on Jun 25, 2021 0:28:43 GMT
That's why the idea of an omnipotent god is nonsense, at least it is if you don't get more specific about the limits of what such omnipotence entails. If god can do anything, then why didn't he do so some other way? The mere act of making a choice defies omnipotence because it narrows the spectrum of possibilities to a single reality. The closest one can get to an omnipotent god is one that makes different similar realities so that they could do in one what they couldn't do in another by the inconvenience of having to make a specific choice. "The mere act of making a choice defies omnipotence because it narrows the spectrum of possibilities to a single reality." An all knowing and all powerful entity could make a choice without narrowing the spectrum of possibilities to a single reality. No matter what any supposedly all powerful god does, one person can only experience reality one way. True, a god could do multiple realities and they're not restricted to only having one reality but no matter what a god does, I as a mortal person can only experience reality one way and thus a god is limited when it comes to choosing the experience of a lesser being. Sure a god could make other similar mortal beings that experience life differently but there is no getting around the singular experience of a mortal being. So a god could theoretically do anything but can't break past the barrier of having to choose one reality over another, at least for the being living it.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 1:20:41 GMT
Also if God is all knowing and all powerful there can be no such thing as free will Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. That is why they often change it to "He can do anything that is logically possible."
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 1:50:01 GMT
"The mere act of making a choice defies omnipotence because it narrows the spectrum of possibilities to a single reality." An all knowing and all powerful entity could make a choice without narrowing the spectrum of possibilities to a single reality. No matter what any supposedly all powerful god does, one person can only experience reality one way. True, a god could do multiple realities and they're not restricted to only having one reality but no matter what a god does, I as a mortal person can only experience reality one way and thus a god is limited when it comes to choosing the experience of a lesser being. Sure a god could make other similar mortal beings that experience life differently but there is no getting around the singular experience of a mortal being. So a god could theoretically do anything but can't break past the barrier of having to choose one reality over another, at least for the being living it. The last sentence is just a rephrasing of the one I quoted in my previous response to you, so I'll rephrase my response: If any given entity (real, imaginary, abstract, or otherwise) can do anything, there are no "buts." Seems like a bait and switch. An omniscient, omnipotent being is being advertised, but what I'm being sold is something that has limits.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 1:52:23 GMT
Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. That is why they often change it to "He can do anything that is logically possible." CS Lewis said nonsense remains nonsense even when we speak it about God, although he called them "intrinsic impossibilities." At any rate, maybe they're just not letting you change it into something it never was to begin with.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 2:01:08 GMT
That is why they often change it to "He can do anything that is logically possible." CS Lewis said nonsense remains nonsense even when we speak it about God, although he called them "intrinsic impossibilities." At any rate, maybe they're just not letting you change it into something it never was to begin with. What was it to begin with?
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 2:27:20 GMT
This is too complicated to even get into and not all religious people are the same or even think about it much. On average I would guess atheists have thought about this stuff much more in depth, which is why the no longer believe God even exists or has ever existed. Keep in mind an atheist is not always someone who rejects all supernatural, paranormal, or metaphysical explanations. It’s that we ideally approach the subjects with skepticism. Empiricism should be front and center to any claims of facts. All revelatory information like the Bible is hearsay and should be treated as such by the non-adherents of that faith. But skepticism is not the same as being close-minded. Religionists are far more close-minded than atheists. I agree with all of that. I should have been more specific. The reason I no longer believe a God exists is because of how much time in my life I have spent thinking about it. I don't know why all other atheists no longer believe that God exists. I was speculating too much.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 2:33:42 GMT
CS Lewis said nonsense remains nonsense even when we speak it about God, although he called them "intrinsic impossibilities." At any rate, maybe they're just not letting you change it into something it never was to begin with. What was it to begin with? Something that didn't know where Adam was?
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 2:35:17 GMT
What was it to begin with? Something that didn't know where Adam was?
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 2:38:54 GMT
Keep in mind an atheist is not always someone who rejects all supernatural, paranormal, or metaphysical explanations. It’s that we ideally approach the subjects with skepticism. Empiricism should be front and center to any claims of facts. All revelatory information like the Bible is hearsay and should be treated as such by the non-adherents of that faith. But skepticism is not the same as being close-minded. Religionists are far more close-minded than atheists. I agree with all of that. I should have been more specific. The reason I no longer believe a God exists is because of how much time in my life I have spent thinking about it. I don't know why all other atheists no longer believe that God exists. I was speculating too much. Not all empirical data is tangible. For example, I don't know anything about you and I've never met your mother, but empiricism is indeed front and center to my claim that you have (or had) one. I'll even go so far as to say it's true even if it couldn't be scientifically proven.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 2:39:14 GMT
This is too complicated to even get into and not all religious people are the same or even think about it much. On average I would guess atheists have thought about this stuff much more in depth, which is why the no longer believe God even exists or has ever existed. Keep in mind an atheist is not always someone who rejects all supernatural, paranormal, or metaphysical explanations. It’s that we ideally approach the subjects with skepticism. Empiricism should be front and center to any claims of facts. All revelatory information like the Bible is hearsay and should be treated as such by the non-adherents of that faith. But skepticism is not the same as being close-minded. Religionists are far more close-minded than atheists. I actually remember the first line of thinking that made me skeptical. How could an all loving God punish me for not believing something I am incapable of believing? Theists have all sorts of unconvincing responses to this. You have to have "faith" is the one I heard most. I had always found that kind of faith to be nonsense.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 2:41:20 GMT
Something that didn't know where Adam was? Somewhere between that and probably the RCC, it became something that could know the unknowable and could do the impossible lest he be an asshole.
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