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Post by lenlenlen1 on Sept 4, 2021 17:14:01 GMT
Also if God is all knowing and all powerful there can be no such thing as free will. Fascinating stuff to ponder over and all obviously myth imo. It reeks of human invention.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 6, 2021 21:34:01 GMT
The point was more that we can never know either way. But this is the problem in a nutshell; you appear to limit imagination to a land of (your own) reality. But thank you for the invitation to imagine what I want. It sort of proves my point again, does it not? I’m sure you want it to, but no. It doesn’t. Once again: even if it was the case that I cannot do actually do something, I can still imagine I can. Sorry about that. I wouldn't find this insulting as I am not so easily upset. But thank you for trying. But the point, as ever, is that (even if we accept you are correct) is that, I can still imagine it is. So then: a blind person can imagine he or she can know what a colour is. And I can imagine them doing it. One can imagine and whether one does so rightly or wrongly is irrelevant since the imagination is not of the real world. See how it works? No, I doubt it - but hey, just imagine you can.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:08:34 GMT
I’m sure you want it to, but no. It doesn’t. Once again: even if it was the case that I cannot do actually do something, I can still imagine I can. Sorry about that. You can't imagine doing something of which you have no knowledge. You say you can imagine a blind man imagining an image he's never seen and call it a win? Ok then. ps. That wasn't an insult. It was an explanation.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:10:25 GMT
Also if God is all knowing and all powerful there can be no such thing as free will. Fascinating stuff to ponder over and all obviously myth imo. It reeks of human invention. Just FYI: You're applauding a refuted statement. Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 6, 2021 22:16:04 GMT
Once again: even if it was the case that I cannot do actually do something, I can still imagine I can. Sorry about that. You can't imagine doing something of which you have no knowledge. At worst, I can still imagine I can imagine it. Again: see how it works? See above - and back through the rest of this thread where I have spent considerable time patiently explaining the obvious. You are saying, in effect, the same as me: that if I cannot 'really' imagine such-and-such I only think, or imagine I can. That's a QED as at the end of the day it is all imagination. Thank you for playing.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 6, 2021 22:19:25 GMT
There is an argument that Satan in the dark face of God™. We know that challenges are what help you to grow, if everything was perfect, or in the terms of the bible, pure love and goodness, there would be no progression, we need corruption to make challenges.
Satan, the great adversary, is part of God™ requirement.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:20:08 GMT
You can't imagine doing something of which you have no knowledge. At worst, I can still imagine I can imagine it. Again: see how it works? See above - and back through the rest of this thread where I have spent considerable time patiently explaining the obvious. You are saying, in effect, the same as me: that if I cannot 'really' imagine such-and-such I only think, or imagine I can. That's a QED as at the end of the day it is all imagination. Thank you for playing. I'm sorry you don't understand.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 6, 2021 22:20:36 GMT
Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. So can God™ create a rock he cannot lift?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 6, 2021 22:22:34 GMT
Just FYI: You're applauding a refuted statement. Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. The common philosophical view is that, besides being unable to change His nature (in which case we can assume that genocide, for instance, is part of God's nature) the omnipotent deity of one's choice can only do what can be done. For example God can only lift a rock that can be lifted, or an omniscient deity can only know that which can be known.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:22:42 GMT
Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. So can God™ create a rock he cannot lift? The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:23:22 GMT
Just FYI: You're applauding a refuted statement. Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. The common philosophical view is that, besides being unable to change His nature (in which case we can assume that genocide, for instance, is part of God's nature) the omnipotent deity of one's choice can only do what can be done. For example God can only lift a rock that can be lifted, or an omniscient deity can only know that which can be known. If there's something he can't do, he isn't omnipotent.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 6, 2021 22:24:10 GMT
At worst, I can still imagine I can imagine it. Again: see how it works? See above - and back through the rest of this thread where I have spent considerable time patiently explaining the obvious. You are saying, in effect, the same as me: that if I cannot 'really' imagine such-and-such I only think, or imagine I can. That's a QED as at the end of the day it is all imagination. Thank you for playing. I'm sorry you don't understand. And I am sorry you presumably have imagination but do not use it.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:25:00 GMT
I'm sorry you don't understand. And I am sorry you presumably have imagination but do not use it. I imagined a flying spaghetti monster today.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 6, 2021 22:25:11 GMT
So can God™ create a rock he cannot lift? The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. You managed to avoid answering the question, You claim God™ is omnipotent, ie it can do anything, can it create a rock it cannot lift?
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:28:57 GMT
The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. You managed to avoid answering the question, You claim God™ is omnipotent, ie it can do anything, can it create a rock it cannot lift? Actually, I did indeed answer the question. I'll rephrase: If God is omnipotent, then he can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it while not compromising his omnipotence.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 6, 2021 22:33:11 GMT
You managed to avoid answering the question, You claim God™ is omnipotent, ie it can do anything, can it create a rock it cannot lift? Actually, I did indeed answer the question. I'll rephrase: If God is omnipotent, then he can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it while not compromising his omnipotence. You realise that is not possible right? If god can do anything but he cannot life the rock, then he cant do anything. I am not sure if you are familiar with the rock argument, it is not a meditation on the power of God, but the meaning of omnipotence. Your definition of omnipotence, based on your answer is that God™ can do anything, in this instance create a rock he cannot lift and then (because if he could not lift it he would not be omnipotent) also lift it. So your definition of omnipotence when applied to God™ is "Can do anything, including breaking natural laws and universal constants. How do you think this impacts on gods™ perfection?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 6, 2021 22:34:17 GMT
The common philosophical view is that, besides being unable to change His nature (in which case we can assume that genocide, for instance, is part of God's nature) the omnipotent deity of one's choice can only do what can be done. For example God can only lift a rock that can be lifted, or an omniscient deity can only know that which can be known. If there's something he can't do, he isn't omnipotent. The contradiction need only worry those who believe in such a being. The rest of us, not being lumbered with such arcane stuff, see the illogicality of necessarily having the inscrutable do the impossible, and just move on. (Incidentally Christians who are kept up at night worrying about where the logic of such literalism leads are recommended to do a Google for the theological concept of a 'Maximal God'. EG readingreligion.org/books/maximal-god
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 6, 2021 22:42:25 GMT
And I am sorry you presumably have imagination but do not use it. I imagined a flying spaghetti monster today. That would be another QED. The FSM 'cannot really' exist and yet you say you imagined it. Blind people 'cannot really' think of a colour and yet...
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Post by gadreel on Dec 6, 2021 22:59:08 GMT
If there's something he can't do, he isn't omnipotent. The contradiction need only worry those who believe in such a being. The rest of us, not being lumbered with such arcane stuff, see the illogicality of necessarily having the inscrutable do the impossible, and just move on. (Incidentally Christians who are kept up at night worrying about where the logic of such literalism leads are recommended to do a Google for the theological concept of a 'Maximal God'. EG readingreligion.org/books/maximal-god There is also the admonition that God™ is omnipotent, but cannot break the laws of reality. SO he can create the rock, but he cant lift it because it's parameters are that it cannot be lifted by him and this does not break the logic of the argument
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 23:20:35 GMT
Actually, I did indeed answer the question. I'll rephrase: If God is omnipotent, then he can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it while not compromising his omnipotence. You realise that is not possible right? If god can do anything but he cannot life the rock, then he cant do anything. I am not sure if you are familiar with the rock argument, it is not a meditation on the power of God, but the meaning of omnipotence. Your definition of omnipotence, based on your answer is that God™ can do anything, in this instance create a rock he cannot lift and then (because if he could not lift it he would not be omnipotent) also lift it. So your definition of omnipotence when applied to God™ is "Can do anything, including breaking natural laws and universal constants. How do you think this impacts on gods™ perfection? It's neither my claim nor my definition. It's just the premise. If God can do anything (that's the premise), then the answer to any question that begins with "Can God..." is yes, no matter how impossible it may seem to you. It's illogical to conclude that something that is unlimited has limits.
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