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Post by Cody™ on Dec 14, 2021 9:51:36 GMT
Correct. The word translated evil there doesn’t necessarily mean moral evil. Some of the definitions include “calamity, adversity, affliction etc. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is about God rewarding those whom are obedient and bringing judgement on those who continue to rebel against him. God did know where Adam was hiding. He was merely challenging Adam on his wrongdoing. You did. The word translated there as hell refers to the grave or place of the dead not the place for eternal punishment for unbelievers. I'm going to pass on the translation game. The point of Psalm 139:8 is that you can't hide from God...as he led Adam to believe. So... Is challenging Adam on his wrongdoing pretending? ...yeah. The point wasn’t God trying to lead Adam to believe he was unaware of his location. God’s question was a challenge to wrongdoing not an appeal to knowledge.
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Post by Admin on Dec 14, 2021 10:18:18 GMT
I'm going to pass on the translation game. The point of Psalm 139:8 is that you can't hide from God...as he led Adam to believe. So... ...yeah. The point wasn’t God trying to lead Adam to believe he was unaware of his location. God’s question was a challenge to wrongdoing not an appeal to knowledge. To say God knew where Adam was hiding but pretended like he didn't is to say God is deceptive. It's not unlike a YEC who says God made the Grand Canyon to appear older than it really is. You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about these things, so what do you think? Does God pretend?
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Post by Admin on Dec 14, 2021 10:26:50 GMT
Jesus, whom we can assume here was also God said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” So, he should know, right? I don't assume Jesus was God here, there, or anywhere, but I can presume it for the sake of discussion. As for all things being possible with God, I will refer you to the CS Lewis quote again. Specifically, this part: "intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities"
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Post by Admin on Dec 14, 2021 10:50:08 GMT
I don't assume Jesus was God here, there, or anywhere, but I can presume it for the sake of discussion. As for all things being possible with God, I will refer you to the CS Lewis quote again. Specifically, this part: "intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities"Aka nonsense. Yes! "Nonsense remains nonsense even when we speak it of God."
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Post by Admin on Dec 14, 2021 10:54:29 GMT
Yes! "Nonsense remains nonsense even when we speak it of God." But if God is omnipotent.... In the Beginning was Nonsense, then God decided to make Sense of it. Then he regretted it. Gen 6:6.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 14, 2021 11:28:43 GMT
The point wasn’t God trying to lead Adam to believe he was unaware of his location. God’s question was a challenge to wrongdoing not an appeal to knowledge. To say God knew where Adam was hiding but pretended like he didn't is to say God is deceptive. It's not unlike a YEC who says God made the Grand Canyon to appear older than it really is. You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about these things, so what do you think? Does God pretend? I just explained it to you. God wasn’t pretending he didn’t know where Adam was hiding. He was challenging Adam to admit his wrongdoing, accept responsibility and learn a lesson. Is a parent being deceptive by asking their child what they did wrong, despite knowing what they did?
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Post by Admin on Dec 14, 2021 12:03:14 GMT
To say God knew where Adam was hiding but pretended like he didn't is to say God is deceptive. It's not unlike a YEC who says God made the Grand Canyon to appear older than it really is. You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about these things, so what do you think? Does God pretend? I just explained it to you. God wasn’t pretending he didn’t know where Adam was hiding. He was challenging Adam to admit his wrongdoing, accept responsibility and learn a lesson. Is a parent being deceptive by asking their child what they did wrong, despite knowing what they did? Yup. Either God was pretending, or he really didn't know where Adam was, which should come as no surprise if you're familiar with Sodom and Gomorrah. "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 14, 2021 12:43:37 GMT
I just explained it to you. God wasn’t pretending he didn’t know where Adam was hiding. He was challenging Adam to admit his wrongdoing, accept responsibility and learn a lesson. Is a parent being deceptive by asking their child what they did wrong, despite knowing what they did? Yup. Either God was pretending, or he really didn't know where Adam was, which should come as no surprise if you're familiar with Sodom and Gomorrah. "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." Figure of speech my American friend.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 14, 2021 15:16:52 GMT
I actually remember the first line of thinking that made me skeptical. How could an all loving God punish me for not believing something I am incapable of believing? Theists have all sorts of unconvincing responses to this. You have to have "faith" is the one I heard most. I had always found that kind of faith to be nonsense. How are you incapable of believing? It isn't possible to believe something is real that you are unconvinced is real. The most you can do is pretend to believe.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 14, 2021 17:52:18 GMT
I'm not asking the wrong question, I am asking the question, you are talking about the question and starting with the answer that omnipotence can break established rules, but the whole point of the question is to question that. The whole point of the question is to question what it presumes? Ok then, forget the rock. Apparently the question is simply whether or not God is omnipotent, and the answer to that depends on what it means to be omnipotent. Let's cut the crap. It's a loaded question because no matter how its answered, the conclusion is that God is not omnipotent and/or unable to do anything. So we can forget the premise, too, and never mind "the whole point of it" because it's not really asking anything at all, but rather making a statement that is not to be questioned. Glad to have that resolved. So now we're supposed to presume he's perfection, too? Why are you making this so complicated? Here it is again... feel free to sing along... If God can do anything, then the answer to any question that begins with "God can" is yes. My turn: What is the ability to do anything if not the ability to do anything? Perhaps you'd like to rephrase the question? Once again, you have started with the conclusion and ignored the question. You even imply the question in your rebuttal "If god can do anything...", and ignore it.
God is considered perfect, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. "
I love how you simply rephrased the question the rock argument asks and then pretended to ask it as your own question.
"Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect". Do you mean "what is the definition of omnipotence, and how does it apply to a god??", um you realize that is the crux of the rock argument right??
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Post by gadreel on Dec 14, 2021 18:00:01 GMT
The whole point of the question is to question what it presumes? Ok then, forget the rock. Apparently the question is simply whether or not God is omnipotent, and the answer to that depends on what it means to be omnipotent. Let's cut the crap. It's a loaded question because no matter how its answered, the conclusion is that God is not omnipotent and/or unable to do anything. So we can forget the premise, too, and never mind "the whole point of it" because it's not really asking anything at all, but rather making a statement that is not to be questioned. No the question has two answers, omnipotence means being able to do absolutely anything regardless of rules, or omnipotence is limited by logic. The question is asking how would or could omnipotence work with a divine being, and you have simply decided that omnipotence works in a particular way without actually looking at the argument.
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Post by Admin on Dec 14, 2021 19:28:20 GMT
No the question has two answers, omnipotence means being able to do absolutely anything regardless of rules, or omnipotence is limited by logic. The question is asking how would or could omnipotence work with a divine being, and you have simply decided that omnipotence works in a particular way without actually looking at the argument. "God can do anything" isn't an answer, it's the premise: If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it? See the bold part? That's the premise. premise: A statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn So... " If God can do anything, can he [insert absolutely anything]..." Yes.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 15, 2021 17:22:41 GMT
No the question has two answers, omnipotence means being able to do absolutely anything regardless of rules, or omnipotence is limited by logic. The question is asking how would or could omnipotence work with a divine being, and you have simply decided that omnipotence works in a particular way without actually looking at the argument. "God can do anything" isn't an answer, it's the premise: If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it? See the bold part? That's the premise. premise: A statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn So... " If God can do anything, can he [insert absolutely anything]..." Yes. See the if?? that is a question. I feel you miss out on so much being so dogmatic.
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Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2021 18:12:21 GMT
"God can do anything" isn't an answer, it's the premise: If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it? See the bold part? That's the premise. premise: A statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn So... " If God can do anything, can he [insert absolutely anything]..." Yes. See the if?? that is a question. I feel you miss out on so much being so dogmatic. “If” isn’t a question. It’s a conditional clause. The condition for the question of whether or not he can do anything is that he can do anything. So, yes, God can do anything if he can do anything. It’s a stupid question.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 15, 2021 18:27:01 GMT
See the if?? that is a question. I feel you miss out on so much being so dogmatic. “If” isn’t a question. It’s a conditional clause. The condition for the question of whether or not he can do anything is that he can do anything. So, yes, God can do anything if he can do anything. It’s a stupid question. There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers as you have so well demonstrated.
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Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2021 18:33:09 GMT
“If” isn’t a question. It’s a conditional clause. The condition for the question of whether or not he can do anything is that he can do anything. So, yes, God can do anything if he can do anything. It’s a stupid question. There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers as you have so well demonstrated. I’m still not sure why would you demand an answer to a rhetorical question, but I have indeed answered it anyway. Here it is again: Yes, God can make a rock so heavy he can’t lift it…if he can do anything. As for the definition of omnipotence, that too has already been addressed. Thanks for the chat.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 15, 2021 18:38:57 GMT
There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers as you have so well demonstrated. I’m still not sure why would you demand an answer to a rhetorical question, but I have indeed answered it anyway. Here it is again: Yes, God can make a rock so heavy he can’t lift it…if he can do anything. As for the definition of omnipotence, that too has already been addressed. Thanks for the chat. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox#Omnipotence_does_not_mean_breaking_the_laws_of_logic
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Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2021 18:51:33 GMT
Already been addressed, argued, torn apart and put back together again. This is would be a good starting place for you to catch up: IMDB2.freeforums.net/post/5184459/threadThe question isn't just whether or not he can lift the rock. The question is whether or not he can lift the rock "if he can do anything." And the answer, of course, is yes, of course he can... if he can do anything. One more time for the road: If X can do anything, then there is nothing X can't do. If "can do anything" doesn't equal "omnipotence," then you're asking the wrong question. ps. imdb2.freeforums.net/post/4308066/thread
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Post by Rodney Farber on Dec 16, 2021 0:27:32 GMT
Asking whether Jehovah can make a rock that he can't lift is a logical contradictions. It's like asking of Yahweh can make a triangle with four sides; Can God make a mammal that does not nurse its young? Can Lord make an insect with four legs (even though the bible mentions such an animal).
How about something actually within God's power. Can God stop a Catholic priest from raping and killing a 10 year old boy? And the follow up: Is that priest going to Heaven if he spends 30 years in jail and repents his sin during those 20 years. ― Tracie Harris
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 16, 2021 14:05:43 GMT
No the question has two answers, omnipotence means being able to do absolutely anything regardless of rules, or omnipotence is limited by logic. The question is asking how would or could omnipotence work with a divine being, and you have simply decided that omnipotence works in a particular way without actually looking at the argument. "God can do anything" isn't an answer, it's the premise: If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it? See the bold part? That's the premise. premise: A statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn So... " If God can do anything, can he [insert absolutely anything]..." Yes. The bible does not teach that “God can do anything”. Asking if God can do something completely illogical is a silly argument.
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