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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 24, 2017 12:27:30 GMT
Rubbish. Most of those defeats came right at the end when his speech was already starting to slur, perhaps due to the onset of Parkinsons. And he was still never stopped in his career... ever! So what makes you think Tyson could have done it when Ali beat much better fighters and beat much harder punchers and was never stopped? Tyson on the other hand never beat another 'great' in his career... ever! He lost every time, unless you want to count Larry Holmes who was well past his sell by date in 1988. No, in boxing, it is nice to finish with an unbeaten record, but it doesn't mean much if there are no names on your CV. It is the boxers you beat on your CV that counts. Ali proved he was the best (at least of his time) by beating the best. And also I'm not sure if anyone could have beaten Ali when he was at his quickest before his suspension from boxing. When he came back he was noticeably slower, it was far more noticeable actually than Tyson. The most overrated boxer of all time is Tyson. He had the image, he had the publicity, and granted he knocked out a lot of bums (many of which Lennox Lewis knocked out quicker) but in the end he didn't back it up in the ring when it mattered. Ahhhh! The old you never beat another great in your era argument. Nonsense. Is it Lebron's fault he plays in a league with slop? Brady's the league is watered down? Crosby's the NHL chose to bring teams to the likes of Tampa, Florida and Columbus and dilute the product? How about Barry Bonds - he juiced! Nonsense. All elite and all the best despite their environment and generation they came up in. 5 losses? Why isn't De La Hoya considered one of the best with 6? And yes - you're argument they came towards the tail end of your career taints his legacy. I'm sorry - I see nothing special about Joe Frazier (and I'm from Philly), Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Ken Norton, etc etc. I really nod my head over the over the top adulation that era gets. Also - in regards to Tyson - I regard Holyfield a legend and was a fan - Holy fought dirty both fights and one can argue he got in Tyson's head which is fair game in the fight world and broke him - but I can argue Tyson > Holy  LeBron and Brady have both beaten other great players/teams on their way to championships. And I'm with Stan, Ali beat the best while Tyson never really beat anyone you would call a legendary fighter. I'll say this in regards to your initial post: I'll take a young Tyson with D'Amato as his trainer minus all the distractions that came later against any heavyweight in history and expect a great fight. But those are what ifs. We have to go by what happened, and Tyson simply flamed out without ever beating any great fighter of his day. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 24, 2017 12:33:55 GMT
The "Most Overrated Athlete in Sports History"? You must be trolling because that is just dumb. Remember, you can't fix dumb. Frogs is the 'hot take' sports show host of this board. I actually appreciate the time he takes to create this stuff. It isn't trolling, he's stirring the pot and some fun conversations usually come out of it. Honestly I can't stand 'hot take' journalism because it usually revolves around negativity, but for the purposes of this message board there's nothing wrong with some healthy debate (Even if the premise is ludicrous). He isn't profiting off of it, he's just having fun. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 15:38:04 GMT
The "Most Overrated Athlete in Sports History"? You must be trolling because that is just dumb. Remember, you can't fix dumb. Frogs is the 'hot take' sports show host of this board. I actually appreciate the time he takes to create this stuff. It isn't trolling, he's stirring the pot and some fun conversations usually come out of it. Honestly I can't stand 'hot take' journalism because it usually revolves around negativity, but for the purposes of this message board there's nothing wrong with some healthy debate (Even if the premise is ludicrous). He isn't profiting off of it, he's just having fun. I just don't get how anyone can make the argument somebody with 5 losses is the greatest athlete of all-time  I guess the whole 'greatest athlete of All-Time' argument is rather subjective - but seems like Ali gets awarded with the fictitious title more times than not. we can go same sport here - i may argue Roy Jones Jr. is the greatest athlete of All-Time bouncing up and down from weight class to weight class and capturing title upon title - although he fell hard towards the end of his career just like Ali. how about Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders? I guess what it comes down to is - 5 losses to me = 5 guys beat the greatest athlete of All-Time? How about the Joe Calzeghe's of the world who went undefeated in the same sport? Do they deserve any talk |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 15:43:03 GMT
Yeah, the defeats at the end of Ali's career do not make him any less of a boxer, in a sense they are irrelevant. It is like saying 'The Godfather 3' lessens the first two films. Or if they brought out a 'Godfather 4' next year starring Al Pacino, Adam Sandler and Rebel Wilson, and it flopped and scored a 4.2 on IMDb, it wouldn't make the first three films lesser films. As for Tyson, he is a bit of an anomaly, you can never take away his achievement of unifying the division so young, But in any other case in boxing, or any sport really, when a guy beats a bunch of bums, but then gets exposed as soon as they face better competition they almost always quickly get forgotten about. But the trouble is with Tyson fans is they can't let go, they can't admit that in the end he wasn't the real deal, he never proved it in the ring. For me one of the most talented middleweight and super middleweight boxers I ever saw was Herol 'Bomber' Graham. Now most people wont have heard of him. Why? Because he lost when it mattered, he got forgotten about. Now I could make all these excuses for why he lost and all these mitigating circumstances regarding those defeats, but at the end of the day, he still lost those fights when it mattered, every single one, and I would sound like a complete buffoon if I started suggesting he could have beaten Roy Jones Jnr or Marvin Hagler or Tommy Hearns or Chris Eubank or Joe Calzaghe or Nigel Benn or whoever. Because as talented as he was, as talented as I believe he was, again, he had his chances and blew it. Maybe in a parallel universe Herol 'Bomber' Graham did go on to become the greatest pound for pound boxer of all time, but not in this universe he didn't. Mike Tyson is similar. He blew his own fights in his own era in his own time. Accept it. Move on. but this is why even to this day Tyson is such a polarizing, fascinating and intriguing figure. who exposed him after he proved to be a phenom? boxers or life? |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 15:44:26 GMT
agreed today's heavyweight class is a joke. put Ali in there with the Tyson era. the Lewis, Golotas, Mercers, Holyfields, Razor Ruddocks, Riddick Bowes of the world. yep. i'm betting he'd just run right throw them right. you old fools stuck in the past crack me up Dear God, you aren't comparing Ray Merced to Joe Frazier, are you? I'm equally amused by you Tyson fanboys. A devastating puncher, but with arms like Charlie Brown. He was a whiz against the Peter McNeely's and Marvis Frazier'scof the boxing world. Just how far did his mouthpiece go after he was hit by the tomato can known as Buster Douglas? 20 rows back? did smokin' joe ever compete in MMA like Ray Mercer? next...... |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 15:47:51 GMT
thanks for backing up for your post with facts to dispute mine. i still say 5 losses for 'greatest athlete of all-time' is absurd. those are my fact bub Ok, what are we debating here? Your thread title reads "Most Overrated Athlete in Sports History". but now you say "greatest athlete of all-time". Which is it? same difference. you say tomato i say tamato .....you get where i'm going here. i just don't get the wild admiration for somebody considered the best when they had 5 losses. i can see one loss. 2 losses is suspect. 3? you're out of the conversation. |
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Post by koskiewicz on May 24, 2017 16:17:01 GMT
...I am a huge fan of boxing. When I watched the last Ali fight with Larry Holmes who beat the snot out of him, I was convinced Ali was just another fighter past his prime...
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 16:23:13 GMT
...I am a huge fan of boxing. When I watched the last Ali fight with Larry Holmes who beat the snot out of him, I was convinced Ali was just another fighter past his prime... 'just another fighter past his prime' - sadly that's what his legacy became to me. i mean - if he was this legendary dreamlike fictitious figure your grandparents tell you stories of lore over - don't you think he'd have less than 5 losses  |
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Post by shadyvsesham on May 24, 2017 16:24:37 GMT
I agree with @manlystanley said - I never got to see Herol Graham (Now I got some fights to hopefully find on youtube).
I will say also, I felt Tyson got robbed by Buster. Count just count when Buster goes down. I got to 12-13 (even a slow count by me, 11). He should have won that fight.
Regardless, Tyson was "Mike Tysons punchout." Now for the non NES fans, you are like,"what." In Mike Tysons punchout you just got to get past that first 90 seconds. Now, of course that game is only 3 rounds, irl, get him to round 4. Mike Tyson has even admitted his entire persona was fear, putting fear into other boxers hearts. Now is Mike Tyson a great boxer, yes. (I got him over Floyd "Runaway" Mayfeather).
Is Tyson better than THE GOAT.....no. Ali was on another level. Unlike Floyd, Ali fought the greatest. Why didnt Floyd fight Manny when we all want it, it is like Manly said, we basically got "godfather 4" between Floyd and Manny. Manny wasnt the same guy, lets all be real again.
In the end, Frazier (He beat Frazier twice)/Norton (He "beat" Norton once easily, but it shows twice, controversy or not. A lot of boxers have controversial wins. Floyd imho lost Castillo 1 fight, even Harold L agrees with me on that one). Leon, he did avenge that loss. (I stand by I think he shouldnt have fought Leon).
I WILL FOREVER stand by his last 2 fights were fn rubbish, pure rubbish. You wanna count the two Leon fights, ok, but Holmes and Berbick, go watch them fight, go watch Ali fight Frazier or Foreman or whoever. Come on, Ali in his prime, would have eaten both men alive. It really almost makes you cry watching those fights, especially if youre a fan. We all saw he was taking to many hits to the head, we all saw his prime was done, we at the least, wanted to remember him AT THE LEAST for his last Leon fight, and even that he "wasnt his greatest."
Holmes and Berbick fights were pure garbage. Most boxing analysts would agree as well. Also, think of this too.....we didnt see THREE, THREE OF THIS MANS prime fn years. I almost see it as Jon Jones (Jones is self screwing himself, Ali didnt). Here we are, we missed at least 6 fantastic prime Ali fights, and we will never get those, ever. So Im sorry, I dont see his 2 loses on his record, Holmes wanted the "allure" of "I beat Ali." Berbick....screw him.
How he beat Foreman, FOREMAN was a more ruthless Mike Tyson. "I wanna kill someone in the ring." People thought he was going to KILL Ali. Remember this, Foreman went in that fight 40-0...YES, 40-0. He left....40-1.
People remember Foreman now as the lovable "Hey I own his grill" guy. He wasnt that in Ali's era. He was a monster, a bully, a fn beast of a man.
People forget Ali in a way did beat Tyson, some consider Foreman in his prime an even scarier Tyson.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 16:35:43 GMT
I agree with @manlystanley said - I never got to see Herol Graham (Now I got some fights to hopefully find on youtube). I will say also, I felt Tyson got robbed by Buster. Count just count when Buster goes down. I got to 12-13 (even a slow count by me, 11). He should have won that fight. Regardless, Tyson was "Mike Tysons punchout." Now for the non NES fans, you are like,"what." In Mike Tysons punchout you just got to get past that first 90 seconds. Now, of course that game is only 3 rounds, irl, get him to round 4. Mike Tyson has even admitted his entire persona was fear, putting fear into other boxers hearts. Now is Mike Tyson a great boxer, yes. (I got him over Floyd "Runaway" Mayfeather). Is Tyson better than THE GOAT.....no. Ali was on another level. Unlike Floyd, Ali fought the greatest. Why didnt Floyd fight Manny when we all want it, it is like Manly said, we basically got "godfather 4" between Floyd and Manny. Manny wasnt the same guy, lets all be real again. In the end, Frazier (He beat Frazier twice)/Norton (He "beat" Norton once easily, but it shows twice, controversy or not. A lot of boxers have controversial wins. Floyd imho lost Castillo 1 fight, even Harold L agrees with me on that one). Leon, he did avenge that loss. (I stand by I think he shouldnt have fought Leon). I WILL FOREVER stand by his last 2 fights were fn rubbish, pure rubbish. You wanna count the two Leon fights, ok, but Holmes and Berbick, go watch them fight, go watch Ali fight Frazier or Foreman or whoever. Come on, Ali in his prime, would have eaten both men alive. It really almost makes you cry watching those fights, especially if youre a fan. We all saw he was taking to many hits to the head, we all saw his prime was done, we at the least, wanted to remember him AT THE LEAST for his last Leon fight, and even that he "wasnt his greatest." Holmes and Berbick fights were pure garbage. Most boxing analysts would agree as well. Also, think of this too.....we didnt see THREE, THREE OF THIS MANS prime fn years. I almost see it as Jon Jones (Jones is self screwing himself, Ali didnt). Here we are, we missed at least 6 fantastic prime Ali fights, and we will never get those, ever. So Im sorry, I dont see his 2 loses on his record, Holmes wanted the "allure" of "I beat Ali." Berbick....screw him. How he beat Foreman, FOREMAN was a more ruthless Mike Tyson. "I wanna kill someone in the ring." People thought he was going to KILL Ali. Remember this, Foreman went in that fight 40-0...YES, 40-0. He left....40-1. People remember Foreman now as the lovable "Hey I own his grill" guy. He wasnt that in Ali's era. He was a monster, a bully, a fn beast of a man. People forget Ali in a way did beat Tyson, some consider Foreman in his prime an even scarier Tyson. 'holmes and berbick were garbage' thank you. and tyson decimated them - but they somehow beat our tall tail folk hero legend that could do no wrong and is the best of all-time |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 16:41:01 GMT
I never got to see Herol Graham (Now I got some fights to hopefully find on youtube). He wasn't a big knock out artist, as his nickname might suggest, but he was elusive, the trouble was on the rare occasion he did get hit, he went down hard and often didn't get up or didn't recover. He used to go into pubs and bars with his arms tied behind his back, and challenge any punters to a bet, if they can punch him in the face they win the bet. No one ever won that bet. Chris Eubank Snr, former middleweight and super middlewight world champ, said of him after a sparring session years ago "he is the only boxer I will never fight. Why would I get in the ring with someone I can't hit?". Prince Naseem Hamed grew up watching Herol 'Bomber' Graham in the same gym. He copied, learnt and adapted his style. Without Herol Graham, there would probably be no Naz. Shame he never made it to the heights his talent probably deserved. |
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Post by shadyvsesham on May 24, 2017 16:41:56 GMT
Ok, but again, Ali was past his prime man. Tyson was a beast, I honestly am in a camp Tyson was a top 5 fighter, a lot dont see him as such. Im telling you, you take a prime Ali Vs a prime Tyson...Ali would rope a dope him.
Can you give me this, do a lot of boxers sometimes hang on to their glory? Hell in every sport. A Qb hangs on too long (Montana didnt quit in a 49ers jersey. Some think Brady might not retire in a NE jersey). Ali sadly missed 3 prime years and hung on too darn long. Youre counting 2 losses against a man, who shouldnt have fought. Your skills go down, it be like taking Chuck Liddell Vs Saint Preux. Preux would smoke Liddell now, but Liddell in his prime, would have popped and knocked Preux out.
Ali was an older man, Tyson was a young man. Youre comparing things that I honestly feel arent comparable.
BTW, I do stand by Tyson got robbed in that Douglas fight.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 16:59:21 GMT
Ok, but again, Ali was past his prime man. Tyson was a beast, I honestly am in a camp Tyson was a top 5 fighter, a lot dont see him as such. Im telling you, you take a prime Ali Vs a prime Tyson...Ali would rope a dope him. Can you give me this, do a lot of boxers sometimes hang on to their glory? Hell in every sport. A Qb hangs on too long (Montana didnt quit in a 49ers jersey. Some think Brady might not retire in a NE jersey). Ali sadly missed 3 prime years and hung on too darn long. Youre counting 2 losses against a man, who shouldnt have fought. Your skills go down, it be like taking Chuck Liddell Vs Saint Preux. Preux would smoke Liddell now, but Liddell in his prime, would have popped and knocked Preux out. Ali was an older man, Tyson was a young man. Youre comparing things that I honestly feel arent comparable. BTW, I do stand by Tyson got robbed in that Douglas fight. I know this is full of 'what ifs' - just like life in general. What if Cus didn't die as soon as Tyson became champ. What if Tyson kept the leeches away like Givens and King and Tyson still had somebody in his camp like Cus. There's some fascinating movies/docs out there about Tyson. His struggles, living in poverty. Being bullied growing up. Feeling like he needed to do anything to survive. That's life - a lot of people have to fight to survive. But you tell me - you watch that 'kid' who destroyed Berbick - and you take all his demons away and just pause right there - and then place him in that Ali, Foreman, Norton, Frazier era and tell me he couldn't hang - if not be the best? I don't think Tyson ever gets the respect he deserves - moreso because of what his demons and bad choices and decisions did to him - not because he wasn't a great fighter. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 24, 2017 17:05:34 GMT
Frogs is the 'hot take' sports show host of this board. I actually appreciate the time he takes to create this stuff. It isn't trolling, he's stirring the pot and some fun conversations usually come out of it. Honestly I can't stand 'hot take' journalism because it usually revolves around negativity, but for the purposes of this message board there's nothing wrong with some healthy debate (Even if the premise is ludicrous). He isn't profiting off of it, he's just having fun. I just don't get how anyone can make the argument somebody with 5 losses is the greatest athlete of all-time I guess the whole 'greatest athlete of All-Time' argument is rather subjective - but seems like Ali gets awarded with the fictitious title more times than not. we can go same sport here - i may argue Roy Jones Jr. is the greatest athlete of All-Time bouncing up and down from weight class to weight class and capturing title upon title - although he fell hard towards the end of his career just like Ali. how about Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders? I guess what it comes down to is - 5 losses to me = 5 guys beat the greatest athlete of All-Time? How about the Joe Calzeghe's of the world who went undefeated in the same sport? Do they deserve any talk I definitely don't consider Ali the greatest athlete of all time. Jim Thorpe wins that honor, hands down. Then Bo Jackson, then it becomes a debate between the greatest players in any particular sport (which is a debate in itself). Ali has an argument in the "Who's the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time" debate, no question. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 17:07:52 GMT
I just don't get how anyone can make the argument somebody with 5 losses is the greatest athlete of all-time I guess the whole 'greatest athlete of All-Time' argument is rather subjective - but seems like Ali gets awarded with the fictitious title more times than not. we can go same sport here - i may argue Roy Jones Jr. is the greatest athlete of All-Time bouncing up and down from weight class to weight class and capturing title upon title - although he fell hard towards the end of his career just like Ali. how about Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders? I guess what it comes down to is - 5 losses to me = 5 guys beat the greatest athlete of All-Time? How about the Joe Calzeghe's of the world who went undefeated in the same sport? Do they deserve any talk I definitely don't consider Ali the greatest athlete of all time. Jim Thorpe wins that honor, hands down. Then Bo Jackson, then it becomes a debate between the greatest players in any particular sport (which is a debate in itself). Ali has an argument in the "Who's the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time" debate, no question. thank you. we're on the same page here. was going to bring up thorpe. jesse owens too. |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 24, 2017 17:25:08 GMT
Funny thing, Mr. Boxing Expert here keeps going on about "Ali lost five times. Enough said" Well, so did Tyson. Included are losses to boxing legends like James "Buster" Douglas (38-6-1, lost to someone named Mike White), Kevin McBride (35-10-1, lost to the German Oaf, Axel Schultz) and Danny Williams (48-26-1, WOW!!!!!!).
And quit with the "Demons" shit. Its a lame excuse, like "I can't fight you, I have my good clothes on".
Show me one list that has Tyson ranked above Ali. Or do you know more than anyone who has ever wrote on Boxing?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 17:27:28 GMT
Funny thing, Mr. Boxing Expert here keeps going on about "Ali lost five times. Enough said" Well, so did Tyson. Included are losses to boxing legends like James "Buster" Douglas (38-6-1, lost to someone named Mike White), Kevin McBride (35-10-1, lost to the German Oaf, Axel Schultz) and Danny Williams (48-26-1, WOW!!!!!!). And quit with the "Demons" shit. Its a lame excuse, like "I can't fight you, I have my good clothes on". Show me one list that has Tyson ranked above Ali. Or do you know more than anyone who has ever wrote on Boxing? But I never said Tyson was the greatest athlete of All-Time  |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 24, 2017 17:48:19 GMT
Funny thing, Mr. Boxing Expert here keeps going on about "Ali lost five times. Enough said" Well, so did Tyson. Included are losses to boxing legends like James "Buster" Douglas (38-6-1, lost to someone named Mike White), Kevin McBride (35-10-1, lost to the German Oaf, Axel Schultz) and Danny Williams (48-26-1, WOW!!!!!!). And quit with the "Demons" shit. Its a lame excuse, like "I can't fight you, I have my good clothes on". Show me one list that has Tyson ranked above Ali. Or do you know more than anyone who has ever wrote on Boxing? But I never said Tyson was the greatest athlete of All-Time And did I say "athlete"? I don't know if Ali could have beat Tyson in the 40 yard dash. Who would have done better in the Decathlon. You are basing your "overrated" tag on his five losses, then prattle on about Tyson. The 1927 Yankees lost a couple games to the 103 loss Red Sox. They must be overrated. |
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Post by bluerisk on May 24, 2017 17:51:01 GMT
One of the most overrated...there is a lot of politics within.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 17:54:34 GMT
But I never said Tyson was the greatest athlete of All-Time And did I say "athlete"? I don't know if Ali could have beat Tyson in the 40 yard dash. Who would have done better in the Decathlon. You are basing your "overrated" tag on his five losses, then prattle on about Tyson. The 1927 Yankees lost a couple games to the 103 loss Red Sox. They must be overrated. talk about being over dramatic but.... interesting point you bring up about baseball. what's your opinion of a 100 win team regarded as one of the best of All-Time; however bows out in the playoffs? Seattle Mariners and I'm a die hard Phils fan comes to mind. Yes - I'd say they were vastly overrated for not being able to 'close the deal' ala Ali in 5 fights As far as my Tyson/Ali comparison - I bring this up because it seems a lot of people easily dismiss Tyson as one of the great Heavyweights ever but just seem to rattle on about Ali being the greatest ever - not only the greatest Heavyweight ever - but the greatest boxer ever - and in some instances the greatest 'athlete' ever. as i said in my original post - i'm not dismissing his legacy. what he did for race in the country. for political topics just as the Draft. but is Ali a case where we were looking for a 'Hero' so to speak? maybe we built this guy larger than life? and i can make an argument I'd take prime Tyson in there to knock him out just like Frazier took him to school? is Ali a creation of us wanting a 'hero'? he did have 5 losses. did Superman have 5 losses? |
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