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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 23:06:36 GMT
An icon for race barriers back in they day? Absolutely. Larger than life when it came to international controversies like the War? Absolutely. As an athlete? He was 56-5. ![](http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/imdbv2/imdbsmileys/odd.gif) That's the greatest boxer of All-Time? ![](http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/imdbv2/imdbsmileys/none.gif) A 21 year old Tyson without Givens and Don King in his ear would have put him to bed in 30 seconds. Thoughts? Discuss. ![](http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/imdbv2/imdbsmileys/cheers.gif)
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 23:29:08 GMT
Rubbish.
Most of those defeats came right at the end when his speech was already starting to slur, perhaps due to the onset of Parkinsons.
And he was still never stopped in his career... ever! So what makes you think Tyson could have done it when Ali beat much better fighters and beat much harder punchers and was never stopped? Tyson on the other hand never beat another 'great' in his career... ever! He lost every time, unless you want to count Larry Holmes who was well past his sell by date in 1988.
No, in boxing, it is nice to finish with an unbeaten record, but it doesn't mean much if there are no names on your CV. It is the boxers you beat on your CV that counts.
Ali proved he was the best (at least of his time) by beating the best.
And also I'm not sure if anyone could have beaten Ali when he was at his quickest before his suspension from boxing. When he came back he was noticeably slower, it was far more noticeable actually than Tyson.
The most overrated boxer of all time is Tyson. He had the image, he had the publicity, and granted he knocked out a lot of bums (many of which Lennox Lewis knocked out quicker) but in the end he didn't back it up in the ring when it mattered.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 23:54:16 GMT
Rubbish. Most of those defeats came right at the end when his speech was already starting to slur, perhaps due to the onset of Parkinsons. And he was still never stopped in his career... ever! So what makes you think Tyson could have done it when Ali beat much better fighters and beat much harder punchers and was never stopped? Tyson on the other hand never beat another 'great' in his career... ever! He lost every time, unless you want to count Larry Holmes who was well past his sell by date in 1988. No, in boxing, it is nice to finish with an unbeaten record, but it doesn't mean much if there are no names on your CV. It is the boxers you beat on your CV that counts. Ali proved he was the best (at least of his time) by beating the best. And also I'm not sure if anyone could have beaten Ali when he was at his quickest before his suspension from boxing. When he came back he was noticeably slower, it was far more noticeable actually than Tyson. The most overrated boxer of all time is Tyson. He had the image, he had the publicity, and granted he knocked out a lot of bums (many of which Lennox Lewis knocked out quicker) but in the end he didn't back it up in the ring when it mattered. Ahhhh! The old you never beat another great in your era argument. Nonsense. Is it Lebron's fault he plays in a league with slop? Brady's the league is watered down? Crosby's the NHL chose to bring teams to the likes of Tampa, Florida and Columbus and dilute the product? How about Barry Bonds - he juiced! Nonsense. All elite and all the best despite their environment and generation they came up in. 5 losses? Why isn't De La Hoya considered one of the best with 6? And yes - you're argument they came towards the tail end of your career taints his legacy. I'm sorry - I see nothing special about Joe Frazier (and I'm from Philly), Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Ken Norton, etc etc. I really nod my head over the over the top adulation that era gets. Also - in regards to Tyson - I regard Holyfield a legend and was a fan - Holy fought dirty both fights and one can argue he got in Tyson's head which is fair game in the fight world and broke him - but I can argue Tyson > Holy
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 0:12:47 GMT
You can't say Tyson didn't get an opportunity to fight greats, he did, and he lost to Lewis and Holyfield twice, he even lost to Buster Douglas not to mention a string of bums towards the end. Ali beat the best, there is no question about that.
You can make all the excuses in the world for Tyson, but the fact is he lost when it mattered, and I don't remember at any real point during those big fights where he even remotely looked like he he had Lewis or Holyfield in trouble, certainly not Lewis, my memory of the Holyfield fights are a little more hazy. I know Tyson likes to make the excuse that Holyfield headbutted him, I'd need to go back to review the footage of that, but that is still no excuse, you never let your emotions enter inside the ring, if you do, and you start making bad decisions because of it, well that's on you. It is one of the first things boxers get taught.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 0:22:02 GMT
You can't say Tyson didn't get an opportunity to fight greats, he did, and he lost to Lewis and Holyfield twice, he even lost to Buster Douglas not to mention a string of bums towards the end. Ali beat the best, there is no question about that. You can make all the excuses in the world for Tyson, but the fact is he lost when it mattered, and I don't remember at any real point during those big fights where he even remotely looked like he he had Lewis or Holyfield in trouble, certainly not Lewis, my memory of the Holyfield fights are a little more hazy. I know Tyson likes to make the excuse that Holyfield headbutted him, I'd need to go back to review the footage of that, but that is still no excuse, you never let your emotions enter inside the ring, if you do, and you start making bad decisions because of it, well that's on you. It is one of the first things boxers get taught. Tyson actually beat Douglas. Knocked him out. Ref made a ridiculously slow count. Debate on whether the actual count was either a 12 or 13 - but none the less - he got robbed. Holyfield? He was fighting dirty both fights. I own Tyson's fight collection. Head butting beyond belief. Very savvy. He enraged an animal and made that animal snap. I love the extras on the DVDs I own - the aftermath of Tyson's camp and the replays of the constant head butts in both fights. Again - that's the fight game - props to Holyfield - I lost a lot of respect for him after watching both fights on multiple occasions (and hearing about his 1 zillion kids born out of wedlock). Lewis? One can make your argument you made about Ali - Tyson was well past his prime and a shell of his former self. In the above original post - I'm talking Tyson in his early 20s when he first held the strap. Boxers who before even 'touching gloves' were defeated because you can see the fear in their eyes.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 0:42:02 GMT
Well Tyson had the opportunity to fight Lewis a lot earlier, but he decided to forfeit the WBC belt after beating Bruno so that he wouldn't have to fight Lewis. Just like Riddick Bowe did. They both KNEW they would lose to Lennox Lewis. Tyson was a coward, So whose fault is that? Can you imagine Ali doing that? It just wouldn't have happened.
And don't forget, Lennox Lewis is a year older than Tyson, so he can't even use the excuse he was too old.
I'll have to watch the Holyfield/Tyson fights again, I will report back, I honestly don't remember the headbutts though, not saying they didn't happen, I just don't remember. I remember the first fight feeling in awe that Holyfield knocked Tyson out, and feeling a bit bad for Tyson at the same time.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 0:58:58 GMT
Well Tyson had the opportunity to fight Lewis a lot earlier, but he decided to forfeit the WBC belt after beating Bruno so that he wouldn't have to fight Lewis. Just like Riddick Bowe did. They both KNEW they would lose to Lennox Lewis. Tyson was a coward, So whose fault is that? Can you imagine Ali doing that? It just wouldn't have happened. And don't forget, Lennox Lewis is a year older than Tyson, so he can't even use the excuse he was too old. I'll have to watch the Holyfield/Tyson fights again, I will report back, I honestly don't remember the headbutts though, not saying they didn't happen, I just don't remember. I remember the first fight feeling in awe that Holyfield knocked Tyson out, and feeling a bit bad for Tyson at the same time. just like Ali was a 'coward' for dodging the War? HI-OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo!!!!!1 Ka-ching!!!! Wa-Wa-WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![](http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/imdbv2/imdbsmileys/cheers.gif)
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 1:14:31 GMT
No he fought for what was right, he showed more bravery and courage fighting against the entire US establishment than Tyson or many of us could show in a thousand lifetimes. He made a stand and said "no", "I will not take part in the murdering of some of the poorest people on the planet", it wouldn't have made a difference if they gave him a job 1,000 miles away from battle, and said to him "you only have to do this for one day", he still wouldn't have done it. And he was prepared to sacrifice everything he built to make that point.
Not only he was he a supremely talented boxer, he had the heart of a lion. Tyson time and time again, failed on both those counts.
Quite frankly to even talk about these two people in the same breath is an embarrassment.
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Post by Carl LaFong on May 24, 2017 1:15:07 GMT
He'd have murdered Tyson.
Tyson may be the most overrated Heavyweight of all time.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 1:23:29 GMT
He'd have murdered Tyson. Tyson may be the most overrated Heavyweight of all time. nonsense. we're talking 'Raging Bull' tyson under 'cus before givens and king got their hands on him. many factors we have to contribute here. 5 losses for Ali? really? really? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) and that's the 'greatest of all-time'? i beg to differ. i've seen nothing special. tyson - i see a bulldog dynamo with speed and brute force unmatched to this day with lightening cat like quickness. ali - i see a dancing boob who ran his mouth and was a product of his environment
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 24, 2017 1:49:24 GMT
Had Ali fought now, no one would have lasted two rounds. And you could say the same thing about Joe Frazier or pre-Grill George Foreman. Hell, probably Ken Norton. The heavyweight division was truly terrifying in those days. Foreman was supposedly indescribable. He beat Frazier like a rented mule. Yet Ali beat him. How? Not only was Ali an incredible fighter but he was smart. That's how he took the title from Sonny Liston. He was so into Sonny's head that the fight was over before the bell rang.
You might argue Joe Louis but to say Ali is overrated is dumb.
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Post by marsexplorer on May 24, 2017 2:13:34 GMT
The "Most Overrated Athlete in Sports History"? You must be trolling because that is just dumb. Remember, you can't fix dumb.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 2:35:01 GMT
The "Most Overrated Athlete in Sports History"? You must be trolling because that is just dumb. Remember, you can't fix dumb. thanks for backing up for your post with facts to dispute mine. i still say 5 losses for 'greatest athlete of all-time' is absurd. those are my facts bub
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 2:38:57 GMT
Had Ali fought now, no one would have lasted two rounds. And you could say the same thing about Joe Frazier or pre-Grill George Foreman. Hell, probably Ken Norton. The heavyweight division was truly terrifying in those days. Foreman was supposedly indescribable. He beat Frazier like a rented mule. Yet Ali beat him. How? Not only was Ali an incredible fighter but he was smart. That's how he took the title from Sonny Liston. He was so into Sonny's head that the fight was over before the bell rang. You might argue Joe Louis but to say Ali is overrated is dumb. agreed today's heavyweight class is a joke. put Ali in there with the Tyson era. the Lewis, Golotas, Mercers, Holyfields, Razor Ruddocks, Riddick Bowes of the world. yep. i'm betting he'd just run right throw them right. you old fools stuck in the past crack me up ![](http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/imdbv2/imdbsmileys/cheers.gif)
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Post by marsexplorer on May 24, 2017 2:44:32 GMT
The "Most Overrated Athlete in Sports History"? You must be trolling because that is just dumb. Remember, you can't fix dumb. thanks for backing up for your post with facts to dispute mine. i still say 5 losses for 'greatest athlete of all-time' is absurd. those are my fact bub Ok, what are we debating here? Your thread title reads "Most Overrated Athlete in Sports History". but now you say "greatest athlete of all-time". Which is it?
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 24, 2017 2:59:40 GMT
Had Ali fought now, no one would have lasted two rounds. And you could say the same thing about Joe Frazier or pre-Grill George Foreman. Hell, probably Ken Norton. The heavyweight division was truly terrifying in those days. Foreman was supposedly indescribable. He beat Frazier like a rented mule. Yet Ali beat him. How? Not only was Ali an incredible fighter but he was smart. That's how he took the title from Sonny Liston. He was so into Sonny's head that the fight was over before the bell rang. You might argue Joe Louis but to say Ali is overrated is dumb. agreed today's heavyweight class is a joke. put Ali in there with the Tyson era. the Lewis, Golotas, Mercers, Holyfields, Razor Ruddocks, Riddick Bowes of the world. yep. i'm betting he'd just run right throw them right. you old fools stuck in the past crack me up ![](http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/imdbv2/imdbsmileys/cheers.gif) Dear God, you aren't comparing Ray Merced to Joe Frazier, are you? I'm equally amused by you Tyson fanboys. A devastating puncher, but with arms like Charlie Brown. He was a whiz against the Peter McNeely's and Marvis Frazier'scof the boxing world. Just how far did his mouthpiece go after he was hit by the tomato can known as Buster Douglas? 20 rows back?
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Post by marsexplorer on May 24, 2017 3:06:51 GMT
agreed today's heavyweight class is a joke. put Ali in there with the Tyson era. the Lewis, Golotas, Mercers, Holyfields, Razor Ruddocks, Riddick Bowes of the world. yep. i'm betting he'd just run right throw them right. you old fools stuck in the past crack me up ![](http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/imdbv2/imdbsmileys/cheers.gif) Dear God, you aren't comparing Ray Merced to Joe Frazier, are you? I'm equally amused by you Tyson fanboys. A devastating puncher, but with arms like Charlie Brown. He was a whiz against the Peter McNeely's and Marvis Frazier'scof the boxing world. Just how far did his mouthpiece go after he was hit by the tomato can known as Buster Douglas? 20 rows back? We both know Tyson was a brawler. He wouldn't of been able to keep up with Ali.
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Post by shadyvsesham on May 24, 2017 5:06:58 GMT
Ali was the best, just a beast. Lets look at his "5" loses. First, he was 29-0. His career...gone for 3 years. We never got to see this man in his true prime, that's the pure shame.
First loss...Joe Frazier, a 34-4 record. (He lost to Foreman twice, Ali twice) and beat everyone else. That's a hell of a boxer.
Ken Norton was his second, and he just seemed to have Ali's number. Hey, sometimes a guy does. (He did beat Norton twice though)
Norton was a 42-7 boxer. (loses to Alix2/Jose Luis Garcia/Foreman/Larry Holmes/Earnie S/Gerry C....but those last 2 loses he shouldnt have kept going, a boxer not wanting to hang it up his last 6 fights he went 2-3-1. Before that...40-4.) (Also....Alis other win against Norton was def controversial, lets be real)
Now Alis last 3 loses were when he shouldnt have been in the ring in the first fn place. He lost to Leon Spinks, he did beat him the next fight, but his next 2 fights, loses to Holmes and Berbick, and he shouldnt have been in the fn ring. I see him as a 55-2 guy (Maybe 55-3, again, being honest, Norton got robbed).
But we all didnt wanna see Ali go out that way. He shouldnt have fought Spinks, Holmes, or Berbick. It cost him badly in the end, and a lot of people dont wanna remember him for that. After he beat Shavers, he should have quit, we all saw he was going down, getting slower. You wanna count the two Spinks fights, fine. 56-3, BUT IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM SHOULD HE HAVE FOUGHT HOLMES OR BERBICK. He would have messed them both up in his prime, and we all fn know it.
After Spinks...Sep-15-1978.
2 years later he fights Holmes!? WHY! He fought Holmes on Oct-2-1980...2 years and some change later!? Than Berbick Dec, 11, 1981. I honestly feel his last 4 fights shouldnt have happened (1-3, remember, 3 of his "losses" came when he shouldnt have been in the fn ring, def 2).
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 9:39:47 GMT
Just how far did his mouthpiece go after he was hit by the tomato can known as Buster Douglas? 20 rows back? ![](http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/imdbv2/imdbsmileys/laugh.gif)
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 9:58:07 GMT
Yeah, the defeats at the end of Ali's career do not make him any less of a boxer, in a sense they are irrelevant. It is like saying 'The Godfather 3' lessens the first two films. Or if they brought out a 'Godfather 4' next year starring Al Pacino, Adam Sandler and Rebel Wilson, and it flopped and scored a 4.2 on IMDb, it wouldn't make the first three films lesser films.
As for Tyson, he is a bit of an anomaly, you can never take away his achievement of unifying the division so young, But in any other case in boxing, or any sport really, when a guy beats a bunch of bums, but then gets exposed as soon as they face better competition they almost always quickly get forgotten about. But the trouble is with Tyson fans is they can't let go, they can't admit that in the end he wasn't the real deal, he never proved it in the ring.
For me one of the most talented middleweight and super middleweight boxers I ever saw was Herol 'Bomber' Graham. Now most people wont have heard of him. Why? Because he lost when it mattered, he got forgotten about. Now I could make all these excuses for why he lost and all these mitigating circumstances regarding those defeats, but at the end of the day, he still lost those fights when it mattered, every single one, and I would sound like a complete buffoon if I started suggesting he could have beaten Roy Jones Jnr or Marvin Hagler or Tommy Hearns or Chris Eubank or Joe Calzaghe or Nigel Benn or whoever. Because as talented as he was, as talented as I believe he was, again, he had his chances and blew it. Maybe in a parallel universe Herol 'Bomber' Graham did go on to become the greatest pound for pound boxer of all time, but not in this universe he didn't.
Mike Tyson is similar. He blew his own fights in his own era in his own time. Accept it. Move on.
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