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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 1, 2023 5:22:56 GMT
Are you intentionally missing the point?? My claim is that: Your stance is that homosexuality is wrong, and that believing it is wrong is a good thing and that homosexuals should be celibate. You normalise this stance, and with it you are contributing to normalising dislilke of homosexuality, this is analogous to rape culture normalising rape. You disagree, please tell me why normalisation of rape is bad (which you have agreed with), but your normalisation of the rejection of homosexuals is not. Rape culture encourages rape by normalising is, why does your normalising of dislike of homosexuals not encourage violence against homosexuals? I fail to see what one has to do with the other (especially since the Catechism of the Catholic Church gave a much stronger condemnation of rape than it did with homosexuality). Sex between two men is a sin and unnatural. Sex between a father and daughter is a sin, but not unnatural since the "penis in and out of a vagina + ejaculation" requirement is met.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 1, 2023 5:29:08 GMT
gadreel , I would say this response is positive proof that clusium is intentionally missing the point. I don't see how you could have described the issue any clearer. I'm not intentionally missing anything. I really fail to see the relevancy of gadreel 's posts regarding rape culture. What gadreel posted: with color coding to clarify the comparison. I think you are intentionally avoiding this very simple comparison.
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Post by clusium on Mar 1, 2023 5:42:22 GMT
I fail to see what one has to do with the other (especially since the Catechism of the Catholic Church gave a much stronger condemnation of rape than it did with homosexuality). Sex between two men is a sin and unnatural. Sex between a father and daughter is a sin, but not unnatural since the "penis in and out of a vagina + ejaculation" requirement is met. Actually yes, unnatural, as the daughter came from the father's genitals. So both case scenarios are both sinful & unnatural.
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Post by clusium on Mar 1, 2023 5:47:16 GMT
I'm not intentionally missing anything. I really fail to see the relevancy of gadreel 's posts regarding rape culture. What gadreel posted: with color coding to clarify the comparison. I think you are intentionally avoiding this very simple comparison. First of all, I do not dislike homosexuals. I just do not agree with homosexual acts, anymore than I agree with incestuous acts (between 2 siblings; cousins; etc). I do not believe that these people consciously choose to be in love with their own gender. I feel bad for these people. But, I still do not see it in the same light as heterosexuality.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 1, 2023 5:48:22 GMT
Sex between two men is a sin and unnatural. Sex between a father and daughter is a sin, but not unnatural since the "penis in and out of a vagina + ejaculation" requirement is met. Actually yes, unnatural, as the daughter came from the father's genitals. So both case scenarios are both sinful & unnatural. Not according to St Thomas Aquinas.
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Post by clusium on Mar 1, 2023 6:04:53 GMT
Actually yes, unnatural, as the daughter came from the father's genitals. So both case scenarios are both sinful & unnatural. Not according to St Thomas Aquinas. I don't see where he addresses the issue of incest there, claiming that it is natural.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 1, 2023 6:57:17 GMT
Not according to St Thomas Aquinas. I don't see where he addresses the issue of incest there, claiming that it is natural. If a father animal can impregnate a daughter animal, then it’s natural. Aquinas is not addressing the sin, but what is natural sex.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Mar 1, 2023 11:08:06 GMT
More like, how exactly does it make sense to someone like you? Because two people are in love and are expressing their love. How can that not make sense? What if a brother and sister were in love and having a romantic relationahip? Would that make sense to you also?
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Mar 1, 2023 11:25:57 GMT
legalization of same-sex marriage? And oppose it if they live in a country where it is still not legal? I don't mean marching against it, or writing angry letters. I mean just being opposed in one's own mind. Or...is supporting the legalization of same-sex marriage not in conflict with being a good Christian? The answer to your question, the way you framed it anyway, is yes. Christians should oppose any sin.
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Post by Isapop on Mar 1, 2023 14:29:42 GMT
legalization of same-sex marriage? And oppose it if they live in a country where it is still not legal? I don't mean marching against it, or writing angry letters. I mean just being opposed in one's own mind. Or...is supporting the legalization of same-sex marriage not in conflict with being a good Christian? The answer to your question, the way you framed it anyway, is yes. Christians should oppose any sin. I didn't ask if a Christian should oppose the sin. I asked if a Christian should oppose the legalization of the sin. You are aware, I trust, that there are many things Christians regard as sins that are perfectly legal - fornication, drunkenness, adultery, worshipping Satan, to name a few. But it doesn't seem to matter to Christians that those things are legal. Christians will speak out against them, but are content to let them stay legal, confident that God will deal with such things as He sees fit. So, gay marriage is an exception to the usual for some Christians. Unlike those other sins, this would be a sin that they want made illegal. So, simple opposition to sin does not explain such a position.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 1, 2023 15:10:38 GMT
What gadreel posted: with color coding to clarify the comparison. I think you are intentionally avoiding this very simple comparison. First of all, I do not dislike homosexuals. I just do not agree with homosexual acts, anymore than I agree with incestuous acts (between 2 siblings; cousins; etc). I do not believe that these people consciously choose to be in love with their own gender. I feel bad for these people. But, I still do not see it in the same light as heterosexuality. So, it is okay to deny them the legal agreement of a marriage contract. Is it also okay to deny them the legal protection of all laws that heterosexuals are granted? Is it okay to steal from them? Is it okay to murder them? Is it okay to discriminate against them? LEGALLY? If you own a business and you specifically restrict homosexuals from entering your business, that should be okay under the law of the land? NOT under the law of the Church; in this country, we are guaranteed freedom of religion unless a religious act is illegal in the laws of the land. No one religion is allowed to impose their laws on those who do not follow their faith.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 1, 2023 15:14:15 GMT
The answer to your question, the way you framed it anyway, is yes. Christians should oppose any sin. I didn't ask if a Christian should oppose the sin. I asked if a Christian should oppose the legalization of the sin. You are aware, I trust, that there are many things Christians regard as sins that are perfectly legal - fornication, drunkenness, adultery, worshipping Satan, to name a few. But it doesn't seem to matter to Christians that those things are legal. Christians will speak out against them, but are content to let them stay legal, confident that God will deal with such things as He sees fit. So, gay marriage is an exception to the usual for some Christians. Unlike those other sins, this would be a sin that they want made illegal. So, simple opposition to sin does not explain such a position. ^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^
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Post by clusium on Mar 1, 2023 15:41:25 GMT
First of all, I do not dislike homosexuals. I just do not agree with homosexual acts, anymore than I agree with incestuous acts (between 2 siblings; cousins; etc). I do not believe that these people consciously choose to be in love with their own gender. I feel bad for these people. But, I still do not see it in the same light as heterosexuality. So, it is okay to deny them the legal agreement of a marriage contract. Is it also okay to deny them the legal protection of all laws that heterosexuals are granted? Is it okay to steal from them? Is it okay to murder them? Is it okay to discriminate against them? LEGALLY? If you own a business and you specifically restrict homosexuals from entering your business, that should be okay under the law of the land? NOT under the law of the Church; in this country, we are guaranteed freedom of religion unless a religious act is illegal in the laws of the land. No one religion is allowed to impose their laws on those who do not follow their faith.I've already answered this before, but, I will answer this again: Anybody who assaults or commits a crime against them should have their asses thrown in prison.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Mar 1, 2023 15:53:48 GMT
The answer to your question, the way you framed it anyway, is yes. Christians should oppose any sin. I didn't ask if a Christian should oppose the sin. I asked if a Christian should oppose the legalization of the sin. You are aware, I trust, that there are many things Christians regard as sins that are perfectly legal - fornication, drunkenness, adultery, worshipping Satan, to name a few. But it doesn't seem to matter to Christians that those things are legal. Christians will speak out against them, but are content to let them stay legal, confident that God will deal with such things as He sees fit. So, gay marriage is an exception to the usual for some Christians. Unlike those other sins, this would be a sin that they want made illegal. So, simple opposition to sin does not explain such a position. That's a fair point. The reason Christians oppose same-sex marriage being made legal is because its a perversion of God's design. A homosexaul marriage is not a marriage. We believe God is the inventor of marriage . So no human authority has the right to redefine it. Christian outreach and missionnary groups are regularly out in the streets condemning those other sins you mentioned and pleading for repentance. They usually get met with the same hostility and branded "judgemental" "self-righteous" & "hateful zealots".
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 1, 2023 15:54:46 GMT
So, it is okay to deny them the legal agreement of a marriage contract. Is it also okay to deny them the legal protection of all laws that heterosexuals are granted? Is it okay to steal from them? Is it okay to murder them? Is it okay to discriminate against them? LEGALLY? If you own a business and you specifically restrict homosexuals from entering your business, that should be okay under the law of the land? NOT under the law of the Church; in this country, we are guaranteed freedom of religion unless a religious act is illegal in the laws of the land. No one religion is allowed to impose their laws on those who do not follow their faith.I've already answered this before, but, I will answer this again: Anybody who assaults or commits a crime against them should have their asses thrown in prison. Good, that is a positive start. But they should be denied the protection of the legal agreement of marriage?
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Post by Isapop on Mar 1, 2023 16:45:29 GMT
I didn't ask if a Christian should oppose the sin. I asked if a Christian should oppose the legalization of the sin. You are aware, I trust, that there are many things Christians regard as sins that are perfectly legal - fornication, drunkenness, adultery, worshipping Satan, to name a few. But it doesn't seem to matter to Christians that those things are legal. Christians will speak out against them, but are content to let them stay legal, confident that God will deal with such things as He sees fit. So, gay marriage is an exception to the usual for some Christians. Unlike those other sins, this would be a sin that they want made illegal. So, simple opposition to sin does not explain such a position. That's a fair point. The reason Christians oppose same-sex marriage being made legal is because its a perversion of God's design. A homosexaul marriage is not a marriage. We believe God is the inventor of marriage . So no human authority has the right to redefine it. No, the subject is legal marriage - an invention of MAN. The marriage you talk about - God's invention - came about with Adam & Eve. That was long, long before man devised legal marriage. And man has continually revised the provisions of legal marriage over both time and location. And in this country, where church and state are separate, those state-created revisions have never redefined what the churches teach about God's invention...BUT... even if we put that aside, even if we were to accept your (wrong) description that man is perverting God's design, then that's just one more sin. Christians believe that (unmarried) sex between two men or two women is also a perversion of God's design. And yet, the legality of that activity is another example of sin that Christians are content to leave legal and let God deal with it. So, again, sin or no sin, Christians can't justify singling out gay marriage as THE sin, apart from all the others, that must be made illegal.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Mar 1, 2023 17:00:26 GMT
That's a fair point. The reason Christians oppose same-sex marriage being made legal is because its a perversion of God's design. A homosexaul marriage is not a marriage. We believe God is the inventor of marriage . So no human authority has the right to redefine it. No, the subject is legal marriage - an invention of MAN. The marriage you talk about - God's invention - came about with Adam & Eve. That was long, long before man devised legal marriage. And man has continually revised the provisions of legal marriage over both time and location. And in this country, where church and state are separate, those state-created revisions have never redefined what the churches teach about God's invention...BUT... even if we put that aside, even if we were to accept your (wrong) description that man is perverting God's design, then that's just one more sin. Christians believe that (unmarried) sex between two men or two women is also a perversion of God's design. And yet, the legality of that activity is another example of sin that Christians are content to leave legal and let God deal with it. So, again, sin or no sin, Christians can't justify singling out gay marriage as THE sin, apart from all the others, that must be made illegal. Yes legal marriage is an invention of man ie the goverment to redefine marriage. Thats partly why Christian should oppose it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2023 17:04:09 GMT
No, the subject is legal marriage - an invention of MAN. The marriage you talk about - God's invention - came about with Adam & Eve. That was long, long before man devised legal marriage. And man has continually revised the provisions of legal marriage over both time and location. And in this country, where church and state are separate, those state-created revisions have never redefined what the churches teach about God's invention...BUT... even if we put that aside, even if we were to accept your (wrong) description that man is perverting God's design, then that's just one more sin. Christians believe that (unmarried) sex between two men or two women is also a perversion of God's design. And yet, the legality of that activity is another example of sin that Christians are content to leave legal and let God deal with it. So, again, sin or no sin, Christians can't justify singling out gay marriage as THE sin, apart from all the others, that must be made illegal. Yes legal marriage is an invention of man ie the goverment to redefine marriage. Thats partly why Christian should oppose it. Will you stop talking about Christians as a homogeneous block of thought... Repeated research shows that the majority of Catholics support same sex marriage. The Vatican is catching up with the Catholic laity and clergy, but it's a slow process... Gay marriage, women priests, and married priests will happen in the near future.
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Post by Isapop on Mar 1, 2023 17:29:46 GMT
No, the subject is legal marriage - an invention of MAN. The marriage you talk about - God's invention - came about with Adam & Eve. That was long, long before man devised legal marriage. And man has continually revised the provisions of legal marriage over both time and location. And in this country, where church and state are separate, those state-created revisions have never redefined what the churches teach about God's invention...BUT... even if we put that aside, even if we were to accept your (wrong) description that man is perverting God's design, then that's just one more sin. Christians believe that (unmarried) sex between two men or two women is also a perversion of God's design. And yet, the legality of that activity is another example of sin that Christians are content to leave legal and let God deal with it. So, again, sin or no sin, Christians can't justify singling out gay marriage as THE sin, apart from all the others, that must be made illegal. Yes legal marriage is an invention of man ie the goverment to redefine marriage. Thats partly why Christian should oppose it. NOW...you have just conceded that man is dealing with his own invention. So, he, therefore, is not perverting God's design. And from that(?) you assert, "Thats partly why Christian should oppose it." No reasoning, no nothin.'. We've established that legal marriage is man's invention. We see that Christians don't object to the legality of many other sins. You can't offer any coherent reason why any Christian should oppose legalizing the inclusion of gay people into this invention of man.
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Post by clusium on Mar 1, 2023 18:00:46 GMT
I've already answered this before, but, I will answer this again: Anybody who assaults or commits a crime against them should have their asses thrown in prison. Good, that is a positive start. But they should be denied the protection of the legal agreement of marriage? I've already given my answer there. Marriage is between one man & one woman (not related).
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