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Post by ThatGuy on Jun 7, 2017 0:32:25 GMT
The First Avenger wasn't really a war movie, but a movie that took place during the time of war. It's like saying Days of Future Past was a war movie because it was in Vietnam and had a Vietnamese General. They went up against HYDRA not the Nazi. And for the people talking about laser guns, it's called secret history. Something that happened that isn't public knowledge. Wonder Woman has a woman with a magic rope and blocks mortars and machine gun fire with a shield (hmm). When did we go over that in our history books? And about the "horrors of war". Wasn't that the point of her journey? That wasn't the point of Cap's journey. It still was a film that took place in WWII, and the war was a vital part of the story. It may have provided an obviously fictionalized re-telling of the war, but that's exactly what 'Wonder Woman' did with the First World War. I'm not even saying it's bad that the first Captain America film didn't dwell on the implications of war that much, but the fact that WW did dwell on those implications made for a more interesting story, in my opinion. Diana went on a journey. It took place during the time of WWII. The war was a backdrop of the story. It was a reason for things to happen. But he wasn't fighting in the war. The movie was him fighting a group that broke off from the Nazi. But Wonder Woman fought in the actual war, right? She went out on the battlefield and participated in an actual battle. Cap only went on secret missions to stop HYDRA (as far as we see in the movie). The only time he didn't actively go after HYDRA was when he went to save the POWs. And that was still HYDRA. Now, if they had him fighting regular Nazi that would be a different thing. They didn't dwell on it because they never went into anything with the war. Not when it came to Cap. He never even entered the war proper. It's like trying to see what hamburger is better, but the entire time I'm throwing away ketchup packets.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jun 7, 2017 0:59:15 GMT
Why I like it more than First Avenger (coming from someone who generally prefers the MCU):
-a better romance that doesn't include a scene where one of the two tries to gun the other down in a jealous fit for "comic relief"
-a more unique main character
-a main character that dies and presumably stays dead, underlining the stakes
-its cool to see WWI represented for a change
-as of yet, it's a more memorable movie (I forgot half of TFA a week after I saw it)
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 7, 2017 8:03:04 GMT
I haven't seen Wonder Woman yet but I'm expecting it to be better than the First Avenger because I wasn't a fan of that film. Wonder Woman is much better than The First Avenger. And it's not just me who says that. Here's an article that gives 15 ways that Wonder Woman is better than The First Avenger: www.cbr.com/15-ways-wonder-woman-is-the-ultimate-captain-america-movie/.
Note: the article contains spoilers for Wonder Woman so don't read the article until after you've seen the movie.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 7, 2017 8:04:26 GMT
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 7, 2017 8:05:50 GMT
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 7, 2017 8:13:13 GMT
I'd say Wonder Woman is the better film. It had more memorable side characters, and did a better job of showcasing the horrors of war. Yes, Wonder Woman is definitely better than The First Avenger. Here's a great article giving 15 ways that Wonder Woman is better than The First Avenger: www.cbr.com/15-ways-wonder-woman-is-the-ultimate-captain-america-movie/.
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Post by miike80 on Jun 7, 2017 8:13:21 GMT
It's enjoyable and definitely a much better direction for DC, I'm even interested in what they do with a sequel for it.
But if you think Wonder Woman is better than even the early MCU films like First Avenger, I would challenge you to explain that. To me First Avenger is easily the better film, and I don't see anything about Wonder Woman that exceeds it in any way, but I would love the challenge of debating that stance. No point, if someone says WW has better cinematography, or better action you will say " in my opinion First Avenger has better action and cinematography". So we're just moving in circles
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jun 7, 2017 11:26:16 GMT
The First Avenger wasn't really a war movie, but a movie that took place during the time of war. It's like saying Days of Future Past was a war movie because it was in Vietnam and had a Vietnamese General. They went up against HYDRA not the Nazi. And for the people talking about laser guns, it's called secret history. Something that happened that isn't public knowledge. Wonder Woman has a woman with a magic rope and blocks mortars and machine gun fire with a shield (hmm). When did we go over that in our history books? And about the "horrors of war". Wasn't that the point of her journey? That wasn't the point of Cap's journey.
congratulations, besides your beside the point arguments, you have inadvertently worked out an important point as to what ultimately elevates WW over a film like CATFA: WW was about the horrors of wars and the journey to end them, as well as the journey of female empowerment and equality; CATFA was essentially a silly comic book story of someone becoming a beefcake in tights by magic, and abaout defeating cartoonish parody-Nazis in a WW II scenario. The former is about the human drama and human failings, the latter just mindless cartoon pulp. From an artistic POV that settles the matter.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Jun 7, 2017 11:43:38 GMT
yup finally got it, mystic artefacts fully justify fancy laser battles in World War II and equal quality writing. You make a convincing argument, Stanton, best proof is that you get withdrawal symptoms from talking about it. Knock yourself out, your brain truly deserves that dose of Marvel bliss after a hard day's work online. Still not seeing what the problem is. I'm pretty sure it's you who needs to make a more convincing argument.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Jun 7, 2017 12:03:24 GMT
It's enjoyable and definitely a much better direction for DC, I'm even interested in what they do with a sequel for it.
But if you think Wonder Woman is better than even the early MCU films like First Avenger, I would challenge you to explain that. To me First Avenger is easily the better film, and I don't see anything about Wonder Woman that exceeds it in any way, but I would love the challenge of debating that stance. No point, if someone says WW has better cinematography, or better action you will say " in my opinion First Avenger has better action and cinematography". So we're just moving in circles But surely if it were a better film you could name x,y, and z moments which stand out as more impactful whether the cinematography is better or not. Does anything beat Steve's transformation, or his recruitment, or his and Peggy's conversation as he's crashing the plane, or his fight with Red Skull including the drone fights and the ending where Skull transports away and the cube falls through the hull, or losing Bucky, or the flag scene, or the grenade scene, or the celebration after he rescues thousands of soldiers, or him waking up in modern America.
When watching Wonder Woman, all I really think of is crossing no man's land, the battle in the city after, the ally scene, and the end of her training scenes. I honestly don't know if there's another scene that really stands out.
That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
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Post by charzhino on Jun 7, 2017 12:21:54 GMT
But surely if it were a better film you could name x,y, and z moments which stand out as more impactful whether the cinematography is better or not. Does anything beat Steve's transformation, or his recruitment, or his and Peggy's conversation as he's crashing the plane, or his fight with Red Skull including the drone fights and the ending where Skull transports away and the cube falls through the hull, or losing Bucky, or the flag scene, or the grenade scene, or the celebration after he rescues thousands of soldiers. [/p]
I would say there a few scenes/moments from WW that are in a similar field to the ones you outlined in First Avenger. Crossing No Mans land is one you've mentioned. The battle in the city after that is another but I would also emphasise the celebration of the people after she takes out that sniper in the clock tower. Her reaction to it was a great piece of acting and writing. The scene where her and General Ludendorf dance is also memorable. The scene where she reacts to the deaths of innocents after being killed by the toxic gas and pushing away Steve. The reveal of Aries was also pretty good. The silent dialogue by Steve Trevor at the end is also a great choice of direction. The reveal of what he says after he sacrifices himself and gives her the watch that was nicely set up during their 1st encounter, provides her the inspiration to trust mankind and defeat Aries. Its gives the audience a nice emotional rise to get behind her character and portray Steve as a true hero. For the record I think both films are fairly even, maybe I would edge it to Cap because his story is more relatable (being a human overcoming odds, rather than a godess) and I liked Red Skull better than Aries.
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Post by miike80 on Jun 7, 2017 12:26:37 GMT
Well, when thinking about CA TFA, i certainly don't think about the fight with Red Skull or the drone fights, or anything from the end except the crash and the conversation. Those are good
Since you mentioned the non man land scene in WW i find it way more impactful than anything in First Avengers ( and that's one of the MCU that i really like, as i don't care one bit about IM trilogy,Antman,Incredible Hulk or the 2 Thor movies)
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Jun 7, 2017 12:27:10 GMT
But surely if it were a better film you could name x,y, and z moments which stand out as more impactful whether the cinematography is better or not. Does anything beat Steve's transformation, or his recruitment, or his and Peggy's conversation as he's crashing the plane, or his fight with Red Skull including the drone fights and the ending where Skull transports away and the cube falls through the hull, or losing Bucky, or the flag scene, or the grenade scene, or the celebration after he rescues thousands of soldiers. [/p]
I would say there a few scenes/moments from WW that are in a similar field to the ones you outlined in First Avenger.
Crossing No Mans land is one you've mentioned. The battle in the city after that is another but I would also emphasise the celebration of the people after she takes out that sniper in the clock tower. Her reaction to it was a great piece of acting and writing.
The scene where her and General Ludendorf dance is also memorable. The scene where she reacts to the deaths of innocents after being killed by the toxic gas and pushing away Steve. The reveal of Aries was also pretty good.
The silent dialogue by Steve Trevor at the end is also a great choice of direction. The reveal of what he says after he sacrifices himself and gives her the watch that was nicely set up during their 1st encounter, provides her the inspiration to trust mankind and defeat Aries. Its gives the audience a nice emotional rise to get behind her character and portray Steve as a true hero.
For the record I think both films are fairly even, maybe I would edge it to Cap because his story is more relatable (being a human overcoming odds, rather than a godess) and I liked Red Skull better than Aries. [/quote][/p]
And you bring up a few very fair and worthy scenes. I appreciate that.
I also agree that I give the edge the Cap and that overall they're fairly even, but I just think Cap has more to offer.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Jun 7, 2017 12:32:09 GMT
Well, when thinking about CA TFA, i certainly don't think about the fight with Red Skull or the drone fights, or anything from the end except the crash and the conversation. Those are good Since you mentioned the non man land scene in WW i find it way more impactful than anything in First Avengers ( and that's one of the MCU that i really like, as i don't care one bit about IM trilogy,Antman,Incredible Hulk or the 2 Thor movies) I'll give that the no-man's scene was solid for sure, but I feel like I'm wading through a lot of down time surrounding it. All of those scenes in FA are definitely ones that keep me into it the entire time, and I actually love all those movies you listed as well.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jun 7, 2017 12:32:35 GMT
The First Avenger wasn't really a war movie, but a movie that took place during the time of war. It's like saying Days of Future Past was a war movie because it was in Vietnam and had a Vietnamese General. They went up against HYDRA not the Nazi. And for the people talking about laser guns, it's called secret history. Something that happened that isn't public knowledge. Wonder Woman has a woman with a magic rope and blocks mortars and machine gun fire with a shield (hmm). When did we go over that in our history books? And about the "horrors of war". Wasn't that the point of her journey? That wasn't the point of Cap's journey.
congratulations, besides your beside the point arguments, you have inadvertently worked out an important point as to what ultimately elevates WW over a film like CATFA: WW was about the horrors of wars and the journey to end them, as well as the journey of female empowerment and equality; CATFA was essentially a silly comic book story of someone becoming a beefcake in tights by magic, and abaout defeating cartoonish parody-Nazis in a WW II scenario. The former is about the human drama and human failings, the latter just mindless cartoon pulp. From an artistic POV that settles the matter.
So once again, you're showing you're ashamed of comics and want them all to be those creatively bankrupt "grounded" films with next to nothing from the comics in them. The exact wrong kind of person to be watching CBMs to start with.
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Post by miike80 on Jun 7, 2017 12:35:45 GMT
Well, when thinking about CA TFA, i certainly don't think about the fight with Red Skull or the drone fights, or anything from the end except the crash and the conversation. Those are good Since you mentioned the non man land scene in WW i find it way more impactful than anything in First Avengers ( and that's one of the MCU that i really like, as i don't care one bit about IM trilogy,Antman,Incredible Hulk or the 2 Thor movies) I'll give that the no-man's scene was solid for sure, but I feel like I'm wading through a lot of down time surrounding it. All of those scenes in FA are definitely ones that keep me into it the entire time, and I actually love all those movies you listed as well. Of course you loved them, they are part of MCU
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northernlad
Sophomore
@northernlad
Posts: 898
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Post by northernlad on Jun 7, 2017 14:42:32 GMT
I read that article yesterday and loved it!
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jun 7, 2017 15:50:11 GMT
congratulations, besides your beside the point arguments, you have inadvertently worked out an important point as to what ultimately elevates WW over a film like CATFA: WW was about the horrors of wars and the journey to end them, as well as the journey of female empowerment and equality; CATFA was essentially a silly comic book story of someone becoming a beefcake in tights by magic, and abaout defeating cartoonish parody-Nazis in a WW II scenario. The former is about the human drama and human failings, the latter just mindless cartoon pulp. From an artistic POV that settles the matter.
So once again, you're showing you're ashamed of comics and want them all to be those creatively bankrupt "grounded" films with next to nothing from the comics in them. The exact wrong kind of person to be watching CBMs to start with. cool your jets, sam, those hissy fits will only give you another itchy fanboy rash. Must have hit pretty close to the mark with this to have you riled up like this.
Did you know that comic books are not all necessarily juvenile and badly written? Quality films such as the gritty/realistic/tragic Road to Perdition are based on comic books, so the media is much broader than your narrow dogmatic view would have you believe.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jun 7, 2017 16:01:58 GMT
So once again, you're showing you're ashamed of comics and want them all to be those creatively bankrupt "grounded" films with next to nothing from the comics in them. The exact wrong kind of person to be watching CBMs to start with. cool your jets, sam, those hissy fits will only give you another itchy fanboy rash. Must have hit pretty close to the mark with this to have you riled up like this.
Did you know that comic books are not all necessarily juvenile and badly written? Quality films such as the gritty/realistic/tragic Road to Perdition are based on comic books, so the media is much broader than your narrow dogmatic view would have you believe. So yeah, you're ashamed of comics that don't sell-out for that bankrupt "grounded" approach.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jun 7, 2017 16:09:07 GMT
cool your jets, sam, those hissy fits will only give you another itchy fanboy rash. Must have hit pretty close to the mark with this to have you riled up like this.
Did you know that comic books are not all necessarily juvenile and badly written? Quality films such as the gritty/realistic/tragic Road to Perdition are based on comic books, so the media is much broader than your narrow dogmatic view would have you believe. So yeah, you're ashamed of comics that don't sell-out for that bankrupt "grounded" approach. 3 fanboy demerits, sam: Only a Sith deals in absolutes! False dilemma is a chronic lifestyle fallacy.
And don't you keep scratching that itchy fanboy rash, resist it and I swear you will be better with time.
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