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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 18:44:46 GMT
Yeah and thats why I want to see Batman go down that deep dark path and than see hin trying to redeem himself. I dont care about the comics. I really enjoyed the BadBat and I thought they should have taken that extra step to make it really interesting.
Batman was by far the most interesting part of BvS untill Mar... And to me the most interesting take on Batman to date.
But I can see where you're coming from.
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Post by brownstones on Jun 12, 2017 18:45:24 GMT
...Good luck ever making the formation of The Justice League believable with a murderous Batman who jumped past the point of redemption. What moral dilemma? There is no morality in murdering Superman. If he went through with it, Batman would have permanently put himself in a place of utter immorality. Hell, I'm barely able to buy this Batman as a good guy as things are. If he'd actually done it, I'd be even more done with the Batfleck than I already am. I disagree. I like the way they went with The Dark Knight in the DCEU. They should have taken it a step further. Make Batman a guy who kills villains is fine with me. Let him deal with the fact that he realizes he has made a mistake. I would find that very interesting. All pure good guys arent interesting. Are you kidding? I mean whether or not you like the film, the movie actually takes some time to show you that Batman isn't in the right, Alfred, Clark and citizens of Gotham all feel that Batman/Bruce has gone down the wrong path.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 12, 2017 18:48:55 GMT
See my earlier post in this thread to get an idea where I'm coming from. To me, all of Batman's behavior in this flick (until the 'Martha' nonsense suddenly makes him capable of normal human interaction) is explained by Bruce's particular psychosis. It was never about placing blame. It was about Bruce's ability to control the world around him. Bruce could not control a world with Superman in it, so he had to go. It's not the Batman from the comics and I understand why people hated this portrayal, but I found it fascinating. Bruce Wayne is a villain in this story until the goofy twist involving Martha, and I loved every minute of his screen time up until that turn. (And I didn't hate him after the turn either, it simply was not the same character anymore.) Yeah, here's the thing. That makes Batman an irredeemably horrible person and the film would have been even more poorly received for it. I can barely buy that this is the same man who's going to found the Justice League as is. Make him that way and I'm just completely done with him, and so would many, many other people. Oh I agree completely, you can't build a franchise around that guy. That's why they gave him a personality makeover in the final 20 minutes or whatever. BvS only works as a one off, elseworlds type of story even with the ending we got. I'm just trying to make an insane story more palatable to people like me who actually enjoyed some of what it had to offer, I wasn't trying to fit it into the DCEU proper.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 18:52:13 GMT
Yeah and thats why I want to see Batman go down that deep dark path and than see hin trying to redeem himself. I dont care about the comics. I really enjoyed the BadBat and I thought they should have taken that extra step to make it really interesting. Batman was by far the most interesting part of BvS untill Mar... And to me the most interesting take on Batman to date. But I can see where you're coming from. No one who worked on BvS is talented enough to give the Batfleck a believable way to redeem himself. In fact, I don't think even a good writer could. If he truly descended down the dark path enough to actually go through with murdering Superman, nothing would shake him from it. He'd have made his choice and become the kind of monster he once fought against, permanently. No one in the audience would ever accept him as a hero character again. At least no this iteration. You would be a very small minority who liked it. Not to mention no one in the setting would ever trust Batman enough to team up with him. The Justice League would form, but not because of him. The Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman would want nothing to do with him.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 18:54:41 GMT
Yeah, here's the thing. That makes Batman an irredeemably horrible person and the film would have been even more poorly received for it. I can barely buy that this is the same man who's going to found the Justice League as is. Make him that way and I'm just completely done with him, and so would many, many other people. Oh I agree completely, you can't build a franchise around that guy. That's why they gave him a personality makeover in the final 20 minutes or whatever. BvS only works as a one off, elseworlds type of story even with the ending we got. I'm just trying to make an insane story more palatable to people like me who actually enjoyed some of what it had to offer, I wasn't trying to fit it into the DCEU proper. All I have to say is bleh.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 18:58:50 GMT
Yeah and thats why I want to see Batman go down that deep dark path and than see hin trying to redeem himself. I dont care about the comics. I really enjoyed the BadBat and I thought they should have taken that extra step to make it really interesting. Batman was by far the most interesting part of BvS untill Mar... And to me the most interesting take on Batman to date. But I can see where you're coming from. No one who worked on BvS is talented enough to give the Batfleck a believable way to redeem himself. In fact, I don't think even a good writer could. If he truly descended down the dark path enough to actually go through with murdering Superman, nothing would shake him from it. He'd have made his choice and become the kind of monster he once fought against, permanently. No one in the audience would ever accept him as a hero character again. At least no this iteration. You would be a very small minority who liked it. Not to mention no one in the setting would ever trust Batman enough to team up with him. The Justice League would form, but not because of him. The Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman would want nothing to do with him. I dont mind being in a small minority. 🖖
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 19:01:55 GMT
No one who worked on BvS is talented enough to give the Batfleck a believable way to redeem himself. In fact, I don't think even a good writer could. If he truly descended down the dark path enough to actually go through with murdering Superman, nothing would shake him from it. He'd have made his choice and become the kind of monster he once fought against, permanently. No one in the audience would ever accept him as a hero character again. At least no this iteration. You would be a very small minority who liked it. Not to mention no one in the setting would ever trust Batman enough to team up with him. The Justice League would form, but not because of him. The Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman would want nothing to do with him. I dont mind being in a small minority. 🖖 Small minorities don't get film franchises dedicated to pleasing them. BvS would be the end of the line with a Batman who murdered Superman. The backlash would have been enough to scare WB into a complete reboot.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 19:03:25 GMT
I dont mind being in a small minority. 🖖 Small minorities don't get film franchises dedicated to pleasing them. BvS would be the end of the line with a Batman who murdered Superman. The backlash would have been enough to scare WB into a complete reboot. Well wouldnt that have been better seeing the response to 75% of the DCEU until now? But Im ok with you disagreeing with me.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 12, 2017 19:04:35 GMT
I dont mind being in a small minority. 🖖 Small minorities don't get film franchises dedicated to pleasing them. BvS would be the end of the line with a Batman who murdered Superman. The backlash would have been enough to scare WB into a complete reboot. Then they definitely should've gone through with it! Bu-dum-tssh.
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Post by ThatGuy on Jun 12, 2017 19:39:14 GMT
And there the pig squeals about things he doesn't understand again. For someone who accuses others of "low effort thinking", you indulge in quite a bit of it, yourself. That final fight in Civil War had nothing to do with mommy issues. A guy just had the fact his parents were murdered to him in the worst way imaginable AND found out one of his friends knew about it, but kept quiet. Anyone in Tony's position would have reacted the exact same way. But whatever, just keep squealing, little pig. How the hell did Tony not know for 25 years that his parents were murdered when 1. The coroner's report would've noted that Maria Stark had palm prints around her neck and a crushed larynx and therefore the coroner would've ruled their deaths as homicide and not accident.
2. Since the coroner rules their deaths as homicide and not accident, the police are obligated to investigate.
3. Since Tony is next-of-kin, the police are obligated to notify Tony that the coroner ruled their deaths as homicide and not accident.
You do know HYDRA has people all over the place, right? You do know that documents can be doctored, right? You really think they wouldn't know to do this? They've been running SHIELD since it was created. Come on man!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 19:43:49 GMT
Small minorities don't get film franchises dedicated to pleasing them. BvS would be the end of the line with a Batman who murdered Superman. The backlash would have been enough to scare WB into a complete reboot. Well wouldnt that have been better seeing the response to 75% of the DCEU until now? But Im ok with you disagreeing with me. There is unfortunately no good answer to that. On one hand, that would also entail cancelling the good Wonder Woman movie we just got. On the other hand, it would entail scrapping whiney, emo Pseudoman and Batsociopath.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 19:45:32 GMT
Small minorities don't get film franchises dedicated to pleasing them. BvS would be the end of the line with a Batman who murdered Superman. The backlash would have been enough to scare WB into a complete reboot. Then they definitely should've gone through with it! Bu-dum-tssh. Fair enough.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 12, 2017 19:48:10 GMT
Well wouldnt that have been better seeing the response to 75% of the DCEU until now? But Im ok with you disagreeing with me. There is unfortunately no good answer to that. On one hand, that would also entail cancelling the good Wonder Woman movie we just got. On the other hand, it would entail scrapping whiney, emo Pseudoman and Batsociopath. No it wouldn't. The WW movie could exist as it is without the wraparound story involving the photograph, or she could find the photograph another way if you think it adds that much to the story. Problem solved.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 19:57:27 GMT
There is unfortunately no good answer to that. On one hand, that would also entail cancelling the good Wonder Woman movie we just got. On the other hand, it would entail scrapping whiney, emo Pseudoman and Batsociopath. No it wouldn't. The WW movie could exist as it is without the wraparound story involving the photograph, or she could find the photograph another way if you think it adds that much to the story. Problem solved. Honestly, I'm reluctant to give WB enough credit to consider such a simple solution. These ARE the same people who had a company that edits film trailers edit a whole movie recently.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 12, 2017 20:03:41 GMT
i'm just saying the opinion is only relevant once you see the movie. I'm not coming here to say Spiderman: Homecoming is trash just because i haven't liked the trailers and i'm not really interested in it. Agreed. I'm always unbiased and never rate a movie (or TV show) until after I've watched it. The reviews for Iron First weren't good, but I've said many times that Iron Fist wasn't as bad as the reviews said and was definitely much better than that boring snoozefest Jessica Jones.
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Post by ThatGuy on Jun 12, 2017 20:05:19 GMT
1. Change the freaking actor for Lex. Do it like the animated version of Lex, smart and powerful. Intimidating. 2. Get rid of the Apokalypse scene. It's cool and all but does not make sense and just makes the movie longer. For that matter, get rid of the Flash scene and cut the Wayne parents' death flashbacks in half. We don't need that much flashback. 3. Get a better reason for Batman and Superman to fight. A simple blackmail is so unoriginal and is just lazy. You can do way better than that. 4. Get rid of the stupid Martha scene. For such an epic fight as Batman vs. Superman you need a way better reason for them to stop fighting than just having a similar mom's name. 5. Get either a better final villain for the trio to fight or at least get an unknown one if you just want a grand but shallow finale. You use someone as well-known as Doomsday you better make sure you do him properly. So either do it properly or just get a random unknown. Heck I would have been fine with no big bad in the end, just make Lex find some red kyrptonite and the final battle is Batman and Wonder Woman trying to calm down an enraged Superman. 6. For the love of god, allow Superman to smile and be happy. He's freakin Superman, not Edward Cullen. Leave the glowering to Batman. 7. Either do Lois Lane properly or just get rid of her. In this movie she feels so tacked on, like they're forcing her to be important even though nothing she does is really that important. 8. I could go on... but I realized after reading all these that there's pretty much nothing left of the movie. Might as well just change the entire movie. How about this: Lex as his usual plotting sociopath without the autism and have him be the only one who sees the trouble brewing. Superman and Batman are at odds (they didn't need any help from Lex, they already distrusted each other) and some kind of emergency protocol or contingency plan by Zod sets up Doomsday's creation. Lex finds out and he, Lex Luthor must push the heroes toward the villain he knows only they can destroy together. The personal struggle is Luthor's, not theirs. On the one hand, he sees both heroes as obstacles to his ultimate goal and would be happy if they simply killed each other. On the other hand, there's no way to profit and gain from a scorched Earth. Lex would have to swallow his pride and appreciate the irony of using these two men (and WW, you wouldn't have to change much to include her in basically the same way) to save the world for his own ends. The manipulation ends up with the world being saved, as only Lex knows the truth of how they came together. He essentially created the JL out of necessity by using these icons of justice as pawns in a larger criminal scheme and now he doesn't know whether to smile or throw up in his mouth. How about this for fixes. Forget about blaming Superman for stuff. People already accepted that he was helping them and the other Kryptonians were the ones to cause the damage. All that crap of blaming Superman for MoS was for people complaining about the movie. Have Superman be the one to not trust Batman or understand his ways. That's the initial conflict between them. And have that near the beginning of the movie along with their big fight. The rest of the Batman v Superman stuff should be them debating their ways. Think of it like a whole movie of Punisher and Daredevil on the rooftop arguing their tactics in Daredevil season 2. The main villain of the movie should have been Brainiac with Lex helping him. Have it that Zod's key and the ship corrupt each other and creates this entity. It has Lex use Zod's body to create itself a body. Brainiac is now the one that knows about Darkseid's coming to Earth because of their time in the Phantom Zone. Don't kill Superman at the end. They all know about Darkseid so have Superman leave to prepare and he tells Batman and Diana to prepare on Earth (forming the Justice League). This allows for Superman to not be there when Darkseid's forces attack in Justice League instead of being dead. He comes back when Earth's forces are kinda against the wall. He brings with him Martian Manhunter and maybe Green Lantern (as chronicled in MoS2 ).
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 12, 2017 20:10:58 GMT
How the hell did Tony not know for 25 years that his parents were murdered when 1. The coroner's report would've noted that Maria Stark had palm prints around her neck and a crushed larynx and therefore the coroner would've ruled their deaths as homicide and not accident.
2. Since the coroner rules their deaths as homicide and not accident, the police are obligated to investigate.
3. Since Tony is next-of-kin, the police are obligated to notify Tony that the coroner ruled their deaths as homicide and not accident.
You do know HYDRA has people all over the place, right? You do know that documents can be doctored, right? You really think they wouldn't know to do this? They've been running SHIELD since it was created. Come on man! 1st, faking the coroner's report is useless if the coroner himself can testify that the Starks were murdered. 2nd, if HYDRA did fake the coroner's report, then that makes the writing in Civil War even worse because that means HYDRA kept around a videotape of the murders, the only evidence that conclusively proves that the Starks were murdered and the coroner's report was falsified. That's as dumb as O.J. keeping the knife that he used in the murders and burying it in his backyard.
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Post by ThatGuy on Jun 12, 2017 20:17:45 GMT
You do know HYDRA has people all over the place, right? You do know that documents can be doctored, right? You really think they wouldn't know to do this? They've been running SHIELD since it was created. Come on man! 1st, faking the coroner's report is useless if the coroner himself can testify that the Starks were murdered. 2nd, if HYDRA did fake the coroner's report, then that makes the writing in Civil War even worse because that means HYDRA kept around a videotape of the murders, the only evidence that conclusively proves that the Starks were murdered and the coroner's report was falsified. That's as dumb as O.J. keeping the knife that he used in the murders and burying it in his backyard.Who do you think doctored the documents? The coroner that works for HYDRA... I did say that HYDRA has people all over the place right? How does a videotape of Bucky killing the Starks suppose to lead back to them?
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 12, 2017 20:32:44 GMT
1st, faking the coroner's report is useless if the coroner himself can testify that the Starks were murdered. 2nd, if HYDRA did fake the coroner's report, then that makes the writing in Civil War even worse because that means HYDRA kept around a videotape of the murders, the only evidence that conclusively proves that the Starks were murdered and the coroner's report was falsified. That's as dumb as O.J. keeping the knife that he used in the murders and burying it in his backyard.Who do you think doctored the documents? The coroner that works for HYDRA... I did say that HYDRA has people all over the place right? So you're saying that the coroner falsified his report to cover up the murders. Then that makes the writing in Civil War even worse because that means HYDRA kept around a videotape of the murders, the only evidence that conclusively proves that the Starks were murdered and therefore negates the entire point of falsifying the coroner's report to cover up the murders. Like I said, that's as dumb as O.J. keeping the knife that he used in the murders and burying it in his backyard.How does a videotape of Bucky killing the Starks suppose to lead back to them? A falsified coroner's report saying that the Starks death was due to a road accident and not homicide means the case is closed and there's no police investigation. The videotape, which conclusively proves that the Starks were murdered, contradicts the falsified coroner's report and re-opens the case and the police would do more investigation.
The 1st thing the police are going to do after watching the videotape is question the coroner as to why he didn't note the palm prints around Maria Stark's neck or her crushed larynx and why he ruled their deaths as accidental and not homicide. The coroner would crack under interrogation and admit that HYDRA paid him off, which leads the police right to HYDRA.
Like I said, if HYDRA paid the coroner to falsify the coroner's report, then that makes the writing in Civil even worse that means HYDRA kept around a videotape of the murders, the only evidence that conclusively proves that the Starks were murdered and therefore negates the entire point of falsifying the coroner's report to cover up the murders. That plot convenience is as dumb as O.J. keeping the knife that he used in the murders and burying it in his backyard.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 21:33:13 GMT
The red fonts are coming. The red fonts are coming.
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