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Post by ArArArchStanton on Jul 3, 2017 23:32:49 GMT
eh, who knows. I mean Cap1 was good fun the first time, I actually came out of it quite content, but after the second viewing I was kind of over it (it probably dropped from a solid 7 to a decent 6), so maybe WW will be the same or perhaps not. For example The Avengers I've seen it one too many times and it's still a solid film, unwavering in quality, but GOTG lost some charm after the second viewing, Iron-Man holds up (shame they didn't cast Don earlier, seeing Terrence is still odd), and surprisingly so does AoU (despite being a bit of step back from TA). I'd say give it a year or two. Cap 1 is really fun to go watch again, especially after all that has happened. I just don't see much of a reason to go back and watch WW again because nothing much happens. GOTG got better too, and I agree about Ultron for sure. All of those age well the more layers are stacked on top of them through further character development and use of the plot elements introduced there. The point here is that WW didn't introduce any plot elements to follow up on.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jul 4, 2017 0:06:43 GMT
The photo was a subplot in BvS. Regardless of one's opinions on that film, the photo in WW was still carried over from that subplot. The Greek Gods presumably being dead doesn't mean we'll see nothing related to Greek mythology in the future. They could bring in characters like Circe somewhere down the line. That's it? Not exactly the Tesseract or Hydra or Vibranium or Shield. Just some flashbacks and an insignificant subplot. This is exactly what I'm talking about. The subplot was how Diana and Bruce ended up meeting, which helped lead to the formation of the Justice League. Unremarkable perhaps, but not really insignificant.
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Post by brownstones on Jul 4, 2017 0:08:31 GMT
eh, who knows. I mean Cap1 was good fun the first time, I actually came out of it quite content, but after the second viewing I was kind of over it (it probably dropped from a solid 7 to a decent 6), so maybe WW will be the same or perhaps not. For example The Avengers I've seen it one too many times and it's still a solid film, unwavering in quality, but GOTG lost some charm after the second viewing, Iron-Man holds up (shame they didn't cast Don earlier, seeing Terrence is still odd), and surprisingly so does AoU (despite being a bit of step back from TA). I'd say give it a year or two. Cap 1 is really fun to go watch again, especially after all that has happened. I just don't see much of a reason to go back and watch WW again because nothing much happens. GOTG got better too, and I agree about Ultron for sure. All of those age well the more layers are stacked on top of them through further character development and use of the plot elements introduced there. The point here is that WW didn't introduce any plot elements to follow up on. Yeah, I gotta disagree there when it comes to Cap1 and GOTG, they didn't work as well on a second viewing for me. Regarding plot elements that will continue into other films, well.....vibranium wasn't really touched on until about 4 years later, and then another 2 to finally bring in Black Panther. I personally wouldn't consider those to be really plot points, but more glorified easter eggs, being interwoven in films but won't really get fleshed out, the only real exception is Hydra.....and must say.....touche Russo brothers, and possibly the tesseract, but that will be more or less treated like a McGuffin. but you also have films like the Iron-Man series which are very much standalone features, that don't really bleed into other films, and that doesn't mean they hold up less well, and I personally think IM1 and 3 are much stronger films than Cap1, because easter eggs don't really bolster or deflate a film. besides hindsight is 20/20, elements brought in earlier films are normally highlighted after future release. with Wonder Woman you can argue it brought in the Amazons which we'll find out in a later film that the earth has encountered extraterrestrial beings, and the Amazons helped ward them off. in BvS we have a deceased robin which will likely be touched upon in a future film, in JL we have Barry's dad in jail, which means that The Reverse Flash exists and that must be touched on.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Jul 4, 2017 2:22:20 GMT
That's it? Not exactly the Tesseract or Hydra or Vibranium or Shield. Just some flashbacks and an insignificant subplot. This is exactly what I'm talking about. The subplot was how Diana and Bruce ended up meeting, which helped lead to the formation of the Justice League. Unremarkable perhaps, but not really insignificant. Unremarkable. That's what I'm getting at.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Jul 4, 2017 2:25:58 GMT
Yeah, I gotta disagree there when it comes to Cap1 and GOTG, they didn't work as well on a second viewing for me. Regarding plot elements that will continue into other films, well.....vibranium wasn't really touched on until about 4 years later, and then another 2 to finally bring in Black Panther. I personally wouldn't consider those to be really plot points, but more glorified easter eggs, being interwoven in films but won't really get fleshed out, the only real exception is Hydra.....and must say.....touche Russo brothers, and possibly the tesseract, but that will be more or less treated like a McGuffin. but you also have films like the Iron-Man series which are very much standalone features, that don't really bleed into other films, and that doesn't mean they hold up less well, and I personally think IM1 and 3 are much stronger films than Cap1, because easter eggs don't really bolster or deflate a film. besides hindsight is 20/20, elements brought in earlier films are normally highlighted after future release. with Wonder Woman you can argue it brought in the Amazons which we'll find out in a later film that the earth has encountered extraterrestrial beings, and the Amazons helped ward them off. in BvS we have a deceased robin which will likely be touched upon in a future film, in JL we have Barry's dad in jail, which means that The Reverse Flash exists and that must be touched on. I basically disagree with everything you said here. 4 later isn't all that long, especially when it was planned that way, and they were definitely set up for a reason. The amazons are the only real possible relevant angle, but it doesn't seem like they'll be anything near what Hydra or the Tesseract were, and I definitely find Cap1 and GOTG to be extremely strong films, especially on repeat viewing.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 4, 2017 2:39:50 GMT
Not really. Avatar got an insane number of repeat viewings and that certainly hasn't held up well.
What I'm referring to is looking back on it long term. There just isn't a lot of meat here to gnaw on. She leaves, gets in one fight, gives up, and then fights Ares. Nothing else really happens. That's all I'm saying.
You can kind of simplify any movie like that. "Captain America gets muscles, beats up bad guys, gets frozen, then gets thawed out". ArArArchStanton just got owned!
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 4, 2017 2:42:48 GMT
You can kind of simplify any movie like that. "Captain America gets muscles, beats up bad guys, gets frozen, then gets thawed out". But then WW doesn't have elements like Hydra, the Tesseract, Shield, Peggy Carter, Vibranium etc etc. It just has what I mentioned, so no, it's not the same. The First Avenger doesn't have elements like Thermyscira, Mt. Olympus, and the Lasso of Truth. The Shield of Athena is much better than a lame shield made by a billionaire playboy. And Steve Trevor is a much better supporting character than Peggy Carter.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 4, 2017 2:46:02 GMT
But then WW doesn't have elements like Hydra, the Tesseract, Shield, Peggy Carter, Vibranium etc etc. It just has what I mentioned, so no, it's not the same. But it did have elements like Themiscira, the Greek Gods, Steve Trevor, and the photo. And the Lasso of Truth and the Shield of Athena, which is much better than a lame shield made by a billionaire playboy. And Steve Trevor s a much better supporting character than Peggy Carter.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 4, 2017 2:50:30 GMT
Cap 1 is really fun to go watch again, especially after all that has happened. I just don't see much of a reason to go back and watch WW again because nothing much happens. GOTG got better too, and I agree about Ultron for sure. All of those age well the more layers are stacked on top of them through further character development and use of the plot elements introduced there. The point here is that WW didn't introduce any plot elements to follow up on. Yeah, I gotta disagree there when it comes to Cap1 and GOTG, they didn't work as well on a second viewing for me. Regarding plot elements that will continue into other films, well.....vibranium wasn't really touched on until about 4 years later, and then another 2 to finally bring in Black Panther. I personally wouldn't consider those to be really plot points, but more glorified easter eggs, being interwoven in films but won't really get fleshed out, the only real exception is Hydra.....and must say.....touche Russo brothers, and possibly the tesseract, but that will be more or less treated like a McGuffin. but you also have films like the Iron-Man series which are very much standalone features, that don't really bleed into other films, and that doesn't mean they hold up less well, and I personally think IM1 and 3 are much stronger films than Cap1, because easter eggs don't really bolster or deflate a film. besides hindsight is 20/20, elements brought in earlier films are normally highlighted after future release. with Wonder Woman you can argue it brought in the Amazons which we'll find out in a later film that the earth has encountered extraterrestrial beings, and the Amazons helped ward them off. in BvS we have a deceased robin which will likely be touched upon in a future film, in JL we have Barry's dad in jail, which means that The Reverse Flash exists and that must be touched on. ArArArchStanton just got owned!
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Post by brownstones on Jul 4, 2017 3:07:26 GMT
Yeah, I gotta disagree there when it comes to Cap1 and GOTG, they didn't work as well on a second viewing for me. Regarding plot elements that will continue into other films, well.....vibranium wasn't really touched on until about 4 years later, and then another 2 to finally bring in Black Panther. I personally wouldn't consider those to be really plot points, but more glorified easter eggs, being interwoven in films but won't really get fleshed out, the only real exception is Hydra.....and must say.....touche Russo brothers, and possibly the tesseract, but that will be more or less treated like a McGuffin. but you also have films like the Iron-Man series which are very much standalone features, that don't really bleed into other films, and that doesn't mean they hold up less well, and I personally think IM1 and 3 are much stronger films than Cap1, because easter eggs don't really bolster or deflate a film. besides hindsight is 20/20, elements brought in earlier films are normally highlighted after future release. with Wonder Woman you can argue it brought in the Amazons which we'll find out in a later film that the earth has encountered extraterrestrial beings, and the Amazons helped ward them off. in BvS we have a deceased robin which will likely be touched upon in a future film, in JL we have Barry's dad in jail, which means that The Reverse Flash exists and that must be touched on. ArArArchStanton just got owned! Please don't quote me.
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Post by brownstones on Jul 4, 2017 3:10:01 GMT
Yeah, I gotta disagree there when it comes to Cap1 and GOTG, they didn't work as well on a second viewing for me. Regarding plot elements that will continue into other films, well.....vibranium wasn't really touched on until about 4 years later, and then another 2 to finally bring in Black Panther. I personally wouldn't consider those to be really plot points, but more glorified easter eggs, being interwoven in films but won't really get fleshed out, the only real exception is Hydra.....and must say.....touche Russo brothers, and possibly the tesseract, but that will be more or less treated like a McGuffin. but you also have films like the Iron-Man series which are very much standalone features, that don't really bleed into other films, and that doesn't mean they hold up less well, and I personally think IM1 and 3 are much stronger films than Cap1, because easter eggs don't really bolster or deflate a film. besides hindsight is 20/20, elements brought in earlier films are normally highlighted after future release. with Wonder Woman you can argue it brought in the Amazons which we'll find out in a later film that the earth has encountered extraterrestrial beings, and the Amazons helped ward them off. in BvS we have a deceased robin which will likely be touched upon in a future film, in JL we have Barry's dad in jail, which means that The Reverse Flash exists and that must be touched on. I basically disagree with everything you said here. 4 later isn't all that long, especially when it was planned that way, and they were definitely set up for a reason. The amazons are the only real possible relevant angle, but it doesn't seem like they'll be anything near what Hydra or the Tesseract were, and I definitely find Cap1 and GOTG to be extremely strong films, especially on repeat viewing. Are you telling me you knew what they were going to use in future films exactly when you saw them Cap1?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Jul 4, 2017 3:15:41 GMT
I basically disagree with everything you said here. 4 later isn't all that long, especially when it was planned that way, and they were definitely set up for a reason. The amazons are the only real possible relevant angle, but it doesn't seem like they'll be anything near what Hydra or the Tesseract were, and I definitely find Cap1 and GOTG to be extremely strong films, especially on repeat viewing. Are you telling me you knew what they were going to use in future films exactly when you saw them Cap1? I was pretty sure if they were good enough to keep going that they'd get to Black Panther, and that Hydra might come up, the Winter Soldier would be a thing, Shield would exist, etc. The ingredients were there.
The point is that there's nothing in WW that gives me a sense that it could be a big deal later. Maybe the amazons, maybe, but everything else seems pretty disposable.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jul 4, 2017 3:39:03 GMT
But it did have elements like Themiscira, the Greek Gods, Steve Trevor, and the photo. And the Lasso of Truth and the Shield of Athena, which is much better than a lame shield made by a billionaire playboy. And Steve Trevor s a much better supporting character than Peggy Carter. Tell me something interesting about the Shield of Athena. What is so amazing about it?? What can it do? What's it made of? Meanwhile, Captain's America's shield is made from the toughest metal on earth, where it is found in only one place in Africa. Yeah, your DC biased is showing as usual and I really don't think you really believe the shield of Athena is better than Captain America's shield, and you're just looking for a petty excuse to trash Marvel. You're not just criticizing the MCU tho, you're criticizing Marvel as a whole and their characters
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Post by brownstones on Jul 4, 2017 4:01:54 GMT
Are you telling me you knew what they were going to use in future films exactly when you saw them Cap1? I was pretty sure if they were good enough to keep going that they'd get to Black Panther, and that Hydra might come up, the Winter Soldier would be a thing, Shield would exist, etc. The ingredients were there.
The point is that there's nothing in WW that gives me a sense that it could be a big deal later. Maybe the amazons, maybe, but everything else seems pretty disposable.
Well we all knew Shield would exist....since they were introduced about 3 years prior, and yes ingredients are there but again you could not have been that certain except for Black Panther (since they confirmed his country existed) and Bucky, and even then we couldn't have guessed when they would have been introduced. And of course the Amazons must return, because they're kind of immortal, they're tied in with the Greek gods, and they're in the JL trailer. And even if WW is more self contained than Cap1 it doesn't make it a lesser film or any less enjoyable, because as I wrote previously I consider IM1 and IM3 to be relatively self contained and stronger films than Cap1.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Jul 4, 2017 4:05:57 GMT
Well we all knew Shield would exist....since they were introduced about 3 years prior, and yes ingredients are there but again you could not have been that certain except for Black Panther (since they confirmed his country existed) and Bucky, and even then we couldn't have guessed when they would have been introduced. And of course the Amazons must return, because they're kind of immortal, they're tied in with the Greek gods, and they're in the JL trailer. And even if WW is more self contained than Cap1 it doesn't make it a lesser film or any less enjoyable, because as I wrote previously I consider IM1 and IM3 to be relatively self contained and stronger films than Cap1. I didn't say I knew when or how, I said all the ingredients were there. There aren't any ingredients in WW. She just marches straight to Ares and there aren't really other plot elements. The Amazons, I mean ok. Maybe they show up in something more than a flashback, maybe not. IDK.
But if it's that much more self contained, I'm not saying it's lesser, I'm just saying it's less relevant than it could have been by comparison.
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Post by brownstones on Jul 4, 2017 4:12:11 GMT
Well we all knew Shield would exist....since they were introduced about 3 years prior, and yes ingredients are there but again you could not have been that certain except for Black Panther (since they confirmed his country existed) and Bucky, and even then we couldn't have guessed when they would have been introduced. And of course the Amazons must return, because they're kind of immortal, they're tied in with the Greek gods, and they're in the JL trailer. And even if WW is more self contained than Cap1 it doesn't make it a lesser film or any less enjoyable, because as I wrote previously I consider IM1 and IM3 to be relatively self contained and stronger films than Cap1. I didn't say I knew when or how, I said all the ingredients were there. There aren't any ingredients in WW. She just marches straight to Ares and there aren't really other plot elements. The Amazons, I mean ok. Maybe they show up in something more than a flashback, maybe not. IDK.
But if it's that much more self contained, I'm not saying it's lesser, I'm just saying it's less relevant than it could have been by comparison.
But.....we see them....they're like....right there in the trailer, and Diana must return back to Themyscira at some point, plus her daddy is Zeus.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 4, 2017 4:15:52 GMT
Tell me something interesting about the Shield of Athena. What is so amazing about it?? You need to read up on Greek mythology. The Shield of Athena was 1 of the gifts (along with the Helmet of Hades) given by the gods to Perseus. Perseus used the Shield of Athena during his journey to cut off the head of Medusa. The Shield of Athena has been used by Athena and even by Zeus himself. I really don't think you really believe the shield of Athena is better than Captain America's shield Yes, I do. The Shield of Athena is much better than Cap's shield. The Shield of Athena was made by a god for use by gods and demi-gods. When a god shakes the shield, thunder rolls and mortals cower in fear. Just as the Helmet of Hades is much better than ANY helmet that could be made by a human and the Lasso of Truth is better than ANY lasso made by a human, the Shield of Athena is much better than ANY shield made by a human for use by a human.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jul 4, 2017 4:28:20 GMT
Tell me something interesting about the Shield of Athena. What is so amazing about it?? You need to read up on Greek mythology. The Shield of Athena was 1 of the gifts (along with the Helmet of Hades) given by the gods to Perseus. Perseus used the Shield of Athena during his journey to cut off the head of Medusa. The Shield of Athena has been used by Athena and even by Zeus himself. I really don't think you really believe the shield of Athena is better than Captain America's shield Yes, I do. The Shield of Athena is much better than Cap's shield. The Shield of Athena was made by a god for use by gods and demi-gods. When a god shakes the shield, thunder rolls and mortals cower in fear. Just as the Helmet of Hades is much better than ANY helmet that could be made by a human, the Shield of Athena is much better than any shield made by a human for use by a human. So they're better because they're made by Gods? I guess that's your opinion, but I think its way more interesting that a human can create a shield out of the toughest metal (who's resource is very limited) ever without the need for Gods.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jul 4, 2017 4:30:59 GMT
It's good first of all, I gave it a 7, which if you know anything about my scoring system a 9 is perfect and 10 is perfect plus your personal taste. 8 is extremely good. 7 is good, 6 is enjoyable, 5 is nothing special nothing terrible, 4 is not so good, 3 is bad, 2 is terrible, 1 is fucking awful, and 0 is the worst shit possible. For comparison I gave MOS a 4 for large sections of 5 and several moments of 3.
But here's the thing,
Not all that much happens in WW. She decides to go after Ares, they walk through a battle field, she finds him, the end. It's like there's no meat on the bone. Nothing to really carry forward or explore or reflect on in much of any way. It just is what it is.
Compare that to First Avenger where you had all sorts of things to build on, from Shield to Hydra to Vibranium to the Tesseract to Peggy Carter to the Winter Soldier, and there was a lot of meat to explore in the future of the MCU.
But the DCU isn't going to get any mileage out of anything they developed in WW. I think I heard the Amazons are going to be seen in a flashback in JL. Is that it?
So without anything to build on, even though it is the best of the DCU films so far, it's not really all that relevant to anything that is going to happen later. Can you really see any Civil War types moments happening where it made a lot of the prior films better, happening to WW? I don't really see how.
Time will tell, right now I think its just a solid film.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 4, 2017 4:36:23 GMT
You need to read up on Greek mythology. The Shield of Athena was 1 of the gifts (along with the Helmet of Hades) given by the gods to Perseus. Perseus used the Shield of Athena during his journey to cut off the head of Medusa. The Shield of Athena has been used by Athena and even by Zeus himself. Yes, I do. The Shield of Athena is much better than Cap's shield. The Shield of Athena was made by a god for use by gods and demi-gods. When a god shakes the shield, thunder rolls and mortals cower in fear. Just as the Helmet of Hades is much better than ANY helmet that could be made by a human and the Lasso of Truth is better than ANY lasso made by a human, the Shield of Athena is much better than ANY shield made by a human for use by a human. So they're better because they're made by Gods? I guess that's your opinion Yep, weapons made by gods for use by gods and demi-gods are much better than weapons made by humans for use by humans.
So your opinion is that a helmet made by a human would be better than the Helmet of Hades? I don't see how ANY helmet made by a human could be better than the Helmet of Hades. If have to go to battle, I would choose the Helmet of Hades over ANY helmet made by a human (even a helmet made out of vibranium).
And your opinion is that a lasso made by a human would be better than the Lasso of Truth?
And your opinion is that a shield made by a human for use by a human would be better than a shield made by a god that can make thunder roll and make mortals cower in fear?
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