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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 10, 2017 13:47:46 GMT
Not really, take away his Holocaust backstory and he loses more of his "relevance". And the writing is cowardly, it refuses to have anyone really counter him or challenge him or have him suffer the consequences for his acts. His Holocaust backstory is who he is by definition. Nothing exploitive about that, just using a real world event to shape a fictional character has been done plenty of times in film. Are you going to criticise Cap and Wonder Woman as well because their origin effectively takes place around the world wars where they are fighting the same Nazis that murdered Eriks family. And Xavier challenges him all the time, you just want to ignore it. The Sentinels are designed specifically to neutralise mutant powers and counter them with their biggest weakness. Asgardians are other world beings so not sure what relevance they have. Using the Holocaust to justify your character is pure exploitation. Especially considering how there's almost nothing in common between the Mutant situation and the Jewish persecution. It's skin deep, and yet the movies try to make them out to be the same thing. Cap and WW are defined as being soldiers from another time, not specifically the World Wars. And if Xavier cared about challenging Erik all that much, he wouldn't have let him escape in DOFP. He'd have paralyzed him and let the Government punish him for his acts. I'm saying that the Sentinels only succeeded because the FoX-Men are utter incompetents who can't fight at all. Put the Sentinels up against people who DO know how to fight and they'd all get annihilated into scrap.
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Post by merh on Jul 10, 2017 23:35:51 GMT
I'll admit, I was unsure of this version of Vulture. He didn't sound to menacing when I read he was just a former clean-up guy, but Michael Keaton nailed it though. That said, the final fight/battle was a bit anticlimactic which was a little disappointing. Glad they didn't kill him though Yeah he was very well developed and menacing in a subtle way. I liked how his plan was very human like its something we would all do if we were in that situation. Not really. He is a disgruntled little man who was stomped on by The Man. Many are in that situation & don't turn murderous (because his intent in that first battle is smooshed spider). He wants money. That is his goal. He's not just taking back what was taken from him. He's provided a nice existence for his family. Had he been smart, he would have let the last job go. He avoided that option for some time, but let his greed take over. All one can give him is he has a certain honor to not just kill spidey, but if he cared about family as much as he claimed, he wouldn't put them where he did.
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barkingbaphomet
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Post by barkingbaphomet on Jul 11, 2017 0:13:46 GMT
...Back to the topic, watching the car scene I can't help thinking what a cool Norman Osborn Keaton would have been. word. i've been saying that since he was cast.
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agentblue
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Post by agentblue on Jul 11, 2017 6:47:39 GMT
...Back to the topic, watching the car scene I can't help thinking what a cool Norman Osborn Keaton would have been. word. i've been saying that since he was cast. Yeah true I remember last summer when he was in talks people were saying he was gonna be either the vulture or norman osborn, and frankly he would have been amazing as norman.
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Post by scabab on Aug 31, 2017 21:53:30 GMT
Yeah I'd say Vulture is definitely one of the better ones. Not saying much I know but Loki, Winter Soldier, Vulture and maybe Ego are the better ones to date.
The MCU as a whole then Kingpin and Kilgrave are amongst the best easily.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Sept 1, 2017 0:11:25 GMT
None of them are as well realized and fleshed out as Magneto... or as effectively menacing as the Sentinel X in X-Men: Days of Future Past. In short, the MCU villains SUCK. Magneto's shtick has become stale and hasn't lead to anything - Mutants are the future, humans are evil, I'll be chummy with Charles and his students to a certain point then go forward with my revolution on the global powers of the world, blah, blah, blah...He really only grew as a character in DOFP where his future self was now working again with Charles, but that reality was erased when it was all said and done. He was pretty much "just there" in Apocalypse and its looking pointless to have him appear in Dark Pheonix too. I can see Loki and Vulture in the MCU growing as characters, not so with Magneto given what's been done in the movies to date.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Sept 1, 2017 0:14:37 GMT
Magneto is the result of Holocaust exploitation, so he's disqualified. And the Sentinels were only menacing due to the X-Men being utter incompetents, so they're the result of the heroes sucking rather than the villains being any good. Try again. Your FoX-Men movies are obsolete. Wrong. Magneto is a result of good casting, writing and acting. And the sentinels were the toughest enemy shown in any comic book movie. Nowhere as bad ass as their comic counterparts however. And "any" comic book movie? LOL...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2017 0:14:46 GMT
None of them are as well realized and fleshed out as Magneto... or as effectively menacing as the Sentinel X in X-Men: Days of Future Past. In short, the MCU villains SUCK. Magneto's shtick has become stale and hasn't lead to anything - Mutants are the future, humans are evil, I'll be chummy with Charles and his students to a certain point then go forward with my revolution on the global powers of the world, blah, blah, blah...He really only grew as a character in DOFP where his future self was now working again with Charles, but that reality was erased when it was all said and done. He was pretty much "just there" in Apocalypse and its looking pointless to have him appear in Dark Pheonix too. I can see Loki and Vulture in the MCU growing as characters, not so with Magneto given what's been done in the movies to date. This, basically. With Magneto, and the X-Men films as a whole, its been the same damn thing over and over and over again since 2000. At least the MCU films are always different.
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Sept 1, 2017 0:40:26 GMT
Magneto's shtick has become stale and hasn't lead to anything - Mutants are the future, humans are evil, I'll be chummy with Charles and his students to a certain point then go forward with my revolution on the global powers of the world, blah, blah, blah...He really only grew as a character in DOFP where his future self was now working again with Charles, but that reality was erased when it was all said and done. He was pretty much "just there" in Apocalypse and its looking pointless to have him appear in Dark Pheonix too. I can see Loki and Vulture in the MCU growing as characters, not so with Magneto given what's been done in the movies to date. This, basically. With Magneto, and the X-Men films as a whole, its been the same damn thing over and over and over again since 2000. At least the MCU films are always different. And yet MCU haters calls the MCU formulaic. Hey assholes, have you seen your fucking franchise?
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Post by scabab on Sept 1, 2017 0:51:29 GMT
But the Marvel Cinematic Universe has used Loki as a major villain in two movies with minor antagonistic roles in two other movies itself.
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Sept 1, 2017 0:54:23 GMT
Both Loki and Vulture are the most relatable villains in the MCU, and I think that's what makes them so good. I predict Mordo will also be a great villain whenever Doctor Strange 2 comes out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2017 1:11:47 GMT
But the Marvel Cinematic Universe has used Loki as a major villain in two movies with minor antagonistic roles in two other movies itself. And? That's only four films out of 16 as opposed to Magneto, who... Shows. Up. In. Every. Single. Fucking. X-Men. Move. As The. Or A. Villain. So you can fuck right off.
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Post by DC-Fan on Sept 1, 2017 3:33:59 GMT
I can see Loki and Vulture in the MCU growing as characters Loki is a lame villain. "I'm evil because I was adopted and daddy Odin loved Thor more than me." Adrian Toomes was the only likable character in SMH. But he's in jail and it's unlikely that Michael Keaton will return so we've probably seen the last of Adrian Toomes. "any" comic book movie? LOL... Definitely tougher than any MCU villains. Loki: "I'm a god." Gets tossed around like a rag doll. Ronan: "I'm Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer." Gets defeated by a silly Dance-Off. The future Sentinels in DOFP are like the Borg in Star Trek. Their ability to adapt made them almost unbeatable and definitely tougher than any MCU villains. When the only way to beat the future Sentinels was to prevent their creation by going back in time and changing the past, that's a pretty tough opponent.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Sept 1, 2017 3:56:59 GMT
I can see Loki and Vulture in the MCU growing as characters Loki is a lame villain. "I'm evil because I was adopted and daddy Odin loved Thor more than me." Adrian Toomes was the only likable character in SMH. But he's in jail and it's unlikely that Michael Keaton will return so we've probably seen the last of Adrian Toomes. "any" comic book movie? LOL... Definitely tougher than any MCU villains. Loki: "I'm a god." Gets tossed around like a rag doll. Ronan: "I'm Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer." Gets defeated by a silly Dance-Off. The future Sentinels in DOFP are like the Borg in Star Trek. Their ability to adapt made them almost unbeatable and definitely tougher than any MCU villains. When the only way to beat the future Sentinels was to prevent their creation by going back in time and changing the past, that's a pretty tough opponent. As silly as essentially "daddy issues" may be for turning evil, it's not uncommon even in reality. Even some of the worst killers in history had some form of parental problems that caused them to snap. But even of course, even you clearly didn't understand why he turned evil in Thor. Not surprising because you need everything spoon-fed to you. Considering Keaton said he loved playing the Vulture, he'll easily come back for a sequel if asked. And Hulk is one of the most powerful characters in the the universe. Plus Loki isn't much of a fighter anyways, and Loki and Thor and Odin being Gods are essentially figurative in this universe. Immortals, yes, but not invincible. Not even going to argue with you over Ronan because as usual, you clearly didn't get it.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Sept 1, 2017 4:50:43 GMT
I can see Loki and Vulture in the MCU growing as characters Loki is a lame villain. "I'm evil because I was adopted and daddy Odin loved Thor more than me." Adrian Toomes was the only likable character in SMH. But he's in jail and it's unlikely that Michael Keaton will return so we've probably seen the last of Adrian Toomes. "any" comic book movie? LOL... Definitely tougher than any MCU villains. Loki: "I'm a god." Gets tossed around like a rag doll. Ronan: "I'm Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer." Gets defeated by a silly Dance-Off. The future Sentinels in DOFP are like the Borg in Star Trek. Their ability to adapt made them almost unbeatable and definitely tougher than any MCU villains. When the only way to beat the future Sentinels was to prevent their creation by going back in time and changing the past, that's a pretty tough opponent. Loki's reasoning for his villainy was more fleshed out in one scene than Magneto's has been in all the movies he's appeared in. And if Loki's motivation to being wicked is "lame" to you then chances are you won't fancy the comic books where he originates, which in turn are loosely based on the Norse mythological Loki who is often compared by scholars to Lucifer, aka the Devil from Christianity. You do not hire Michael Keaton and don't bring him back for more movies, the post-credits scene in SMH suggests there is more for him in down the road. That's the joke, Loki is not a human so The Hulk realizes that he can toss him around like a rag doll without killing him like it would do to a regular human being. For the last time, RONAN. WAS. NOT. DEFEATED. BY. A. DANCE. OFF. Stop this now, you know that didn't happen, you know he was defeated by an infinity stone. Disprove this if you can( Hint - you cannot because it never happened). Thanos with his Infinity Gauntlet obliterates the Sentinels with ease. The non-human MCU villains can take on Sentinels with their fantastical and intergalactic resources.
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Post by DC-Fan on Sept 1, 2017 6:29:29 GMT
the comic books where he originates, which in turn are loosely based on the Norse mythological Loki who is often compared by scholars to Lucifer, aka the Devil from Christianity. You said Hela was the ruler of Hel in Norse mythology. So how is Loki equivalent to the Devil when they already have Hela in that role. the post-credits scene in SMH suggests there is more for him in down the road. Adrian Toomes is in jail. What more are they going to do with him in jail? Even Liz and her mother have moved out of New York so there's nothing more for the Adrian Toomes story arc. Thanos with his Infinity Gauntlet obliterates the Sentinels with ease. The non-human MCU villains can take on Sentinels with their fantastical and intergalactic resources. You missed the part where the future Sentinels adapt like the Borg in Star Trek do. Thanos might take down a few Sentinels with the Infinity Gauntlet but then the rest will adapt and the Infinity Gauntlet will be useless against them. And the non-human MCU villains can't take on the Sentinels. The Chitauri have no superpowers and Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer was defeated by a silly Dance-Off. Speaking of the Infinity Gauntlet, I've read comments from MCU fans that Avengers 3 will end with Thanos getting possession of all the Infinity Stones and Avengers 4 will be the Avengers re-grouping to defeat Thanos. But if Thanos has possession of the Infinity Stones at the end of Avengers 3, then he should be able to just kill all the Avengers using the Infinity Stones so there shouldn't be any Avengers 4. Unless the Infinity Stones aren't powerful enough to kill all the Avengers. In which case, what's the point of Thanos trying to obtain the MacGuffin Infinity Stones if the Infinity Stones aren't even powerful enough to kill all his enemies?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Sept 1, 2017 7:36:35 GMT
the comic books where he originates, which in turn are loosely based on the Norse mythological Loki who is often compared by scholars to Lucifer, aka the Devil from Christianity. You said Hela was the ruler of Hel in Norse mythology. So how is Loki equivalent to the Devil when they already have Hela in that role. the post-credits scene in SMH suggests there is more for him in down the road. Adrian Toomes is in jail. What more are they going to do with him in jail? Even Liz and her mother have moved out of New York so there's nothing more for the Adrian Toomes story arc. Thanos with his Infinity Gauntlet obliterates the Sentinels with ease. The non-human MCU villains can take on Sentinels with their fantastical and intergalactic resources. You missed the part where the future Sentinels adapt like the Borg in Star Trek do. Thanos might take down a few Sentinels with the Infinity Gauntlet but then the rest will adapt and the Infinity Gauntlet will be useless against them. And the non-human MCU villains can't take on the Sentinels. The Chitauri have no superpowers and Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer was defeated by a silly Dance-Off. Speaking of the Infinity Gauntlet, I've read comments from MCU fans that Avengers 3 will end with Thanos getting possession of all the Infinity Stones and Avengers 4 will be the Avengers re-grouping to defeat Thanos. But if Thanos has possession of the Infinity Stones at the end of Avengers 3, then he should be able to just kill all the Avengers using the Infinity Stones so there shouldn't be any Avengers 4. Unless the Infinity Stones aren't powerful enough to kill all the Avengers. In which case, what's the point of Thanos trying to obtain the MacGuffin Infinity Stones if the Infinity Stones aren't even powerful enough to kill all his enemies? I'm not the one drawing the parallels, for starters. Two, you really need to brush up on intercultural mythology and understand that not every deity matches exactly with others from different faiths. Yes, because no super villain has ever not escaped prison. I didn't, just pointing out that Thanos has majorly f'd up the Marvel universe with the gauntlet and is practically a god with it, other characters in the Marvel universe have the ability to stop the Sentinels with ease. The Chitauri ae huge in number and have the assistance of the cosmic cube if they need it. No, Ronan was not defeated by a silly dance-off, he didn't agree to Quill's challenge he just stood there puzzled and annoyed, the infinity stone wiped him out. Did you not see the leaked teaser? Thanos literally pulls a planet closer and obliterates it like nothing. He's crazy powerful, and no way would they kill off all Avengers in one story it's just that Thanos and his Infinity Gauntlet is their biggest obstacle yet.
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Post by DC-Fan on Sept 1, 2017 7:57:22 GMT
you really need to brush up on intercultural mythology Most people, myself included, don't give a shit about Norse mythology. not every deity matches exactly with others from different faiths. Well, the Roman gods are based on the Greek gods (e.g. Mars=Ares; Pluto=Hades; Venus=Aphrodite; Mercury=Hermes; Neptune=Poseidon; Jupiter=Zeus). Yes, because no super villain has ever not escaped prison. Adrian Toomes got his powers from the vulture suit that he built out of Chitauri technology. I'm sure the government took that away from him when they put him in prison so he has no powers in prison so escape wouldn't be so easy. The Chitauri ae huge in number So are the Chinese. And like the Chinese, the Chitauri have no superpowers either. So the Chitauri can no more defeat the Sentinels than the entire country of China can. So why doesn't he just kill off all his enemies then? no way would they kill off all Avengers in one story So it's just for plot convenience that Thanos doesn't kill off all the Avengers. Just like it was just plot convenience in Civil War that Zemo doesn't just go after the Avengers' families and loved ones and instead has to come up with the most convoluted plot in CBM history in which he finds the only copy of a 25-year-old videotape of Bucky killing the Starks and then, instead of just uploading the videotape to the Internet for the whole world to see, he waits for Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man all show up at the same remote base in Siberia at the exact same time (how Zemo knew that would happen is never explained in the movie) so they could all watch the videotape together. Or the plot convenience in Civil War in which Iron man knows Ca and Bucky are going to show up at the airport to hijack the quinjet to make their escape but Iron Man isn't even going to bother disabling the quinjet to prevent it from being hijack because the plot needs Ca and Bucky to get away so that Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man can all meet up at the same remote base in Siberia at the exact same time (how Zemo knew that would happen is never explained in the movie) so they could all watch the videotape together.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 1, 2017 9:50:10 GMT
no way would they kill off all Avengers in one story So it's just for plot convenience that Thanos doesn't kill off all the Avengers. Just like it was just plot convenience in Civil War that Zemo doesn't just go after the Avengers' families and loved ones and instead has to come up with the most convoluted plot in CBM history in which he finds the only copy of a 25-year-old videotape of Bucky killing the Starks and then, instead of just uploading the videotape to the Internet for the whole world to see, he waits for Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man all show up at the same remote base in Siberia at the exact same time (how Zemo knew that would happen is never explained in the movie) so they could all watch the videotape together. Or the plot convenience in Civil War in which Iron man knows Ca and Bucky are going to show up at the airport to hijack the quinjet to make their escape but Iron Man isn't even going to bother disabling the quinjet to prevent it from being hijack because the plot needs Ca and Bucky to get away so that Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man can all meet up at the same remote base in Siberia at the exact same time (how Zemo knew that would happen is never explained in the movie) so they could all watch the videotape together. You, again, weren't paying attention. Zemo said that if he went after the Avengers or their families they'd unite against him. He needed something to turn them on one another. He didn't know for sure there was a tape until he got to that base (he knew there were other Winter Soldiers, wasn't 100% sure about the tape). He WAS just going to send Tony the tape, the others all showing up was just good fortune.
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Post by charzhino on Sept 1, 2017 10:45:59 GMT
Loki's reasoning for his villainy was more fleshed out in one scene than Magneto's has been in all the movies he's appeared in. The non-human MCU villains can take on Sentinels with their fantastical and intergalactic resources. Nonsense. What scene are we talking about? Magneto is more fleshed out than Loki; its not even up for debate. For every scene that explores Lokis psyche and motivations, I can name you 3 better scenes with more nuance with Magneto. They're both essentially the same mould of character, but Eric is better written and acted even in the bad movies. The sentinels would destroy the Avengers within minutes.
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