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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 22:30:56 GMT
I can say with confidence that the next Avengers film will only touch on the ending of CW and Tony will forgive him - as the upbeat ending suggests.The ending to CW didn't justify the violence we saw during it. And the only arrogant users on this board are samhmd, Thatguy and weirdraptor. There's more precedence to say that'll be the case: Pepper Potts. Civil War treated her and Tony's break up with some real gravitas. It was obvious losing her greatly affected Tony and may have been a factor in his state of mind. Yet by the time of Spiderman Homecoming, they're back together seemingly on their way to a public engagement. Literally none of the drama of Pepper dumping Tony is touched upon. There's just a reconciliation out of nowhere. Oh, look, Caleb is continuing to be a colossal fuckwit who hates the MCU. And Tony only said he and Pepper were on a break. And that is not precedence for Tony and Steve making up easily in Infinity War. You're just an imbecile.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 4, 2017 22:31:02 GMT
None the less, the character, or more precisely the actor most associated with him, is gone. That's a huge shake up to the status quo anyway you look at it. Barring a return. But as of now, that's not in the stars. And no, that is not at all what I would need for things to be changed in the MCU. I'm pretty sure I made it clear what I'd like. Simply having no scene of Steve sending Tony a "P.S. I still love you" care package. Don't know why you'd think I want Tony hunting Steve down like he was Hannibal Lecter. Doesn't matter, if it's some future AU. So Steve should be an irresponsible douchebag who doesn't even try to extend and olive branch? I suppose he should've left the others to rot in the Raft as well.No. That is nowhere near what I said. All I said was no love letter to Tony. Especially considering how heated their fight got. It was no longer a clash of principles. It was a personal fight. And the people on the Raft were there because they sided with him. Why would he leave them to rot? I said no such thing. And lets be honest: the entire movie was Steve trying to extend an olive branch. He kept trying to reason with Tony. Tony kept reacting by locking people up (Wanda) or attacking first.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 4, 2017 22:31:06 GMT
No, like how the X-Men films have been reusing the script from the first and second film since 2000 and 2003. With the MCU, its always something different. I gotta disagree with that. Dr. Strange was Iron Man redux. Genius billionaire playboy suffers life altering accident and turns his life around to helping others. Right down to the quips and goatee. There are superficial similarities, but the end is quite different as Strange has to completely abandon his old life whereas Tony didn't.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 4, 2017 22:32:06 GMT
I can say with confidence that the next Avengers film will only touch on the ending of CW and Tony will forgive him - as the upbeat ending suggests.The ending to CW didn't justify the violence we saw during it. And the only arrogant users on this board are samhmd, Thatguy and weirdraptor. There's more precedence to say that'll be the case: Pepper Potts. Civil War treated her and Tony's break up with some real gravitas. It was obvious losing her greatly affected Tony and may have been a factor in his state of mind. Yet by the time of Spiderman Homecoming, they're back together seemingly on their way to a public engagement. Literally none of the drama of Pepper dumping Tony is touched upon. There's just a reconciliation out of nowhere. They were on a break, and then Paltrow decided to come back so they ended the break. Easy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 22:33:05 GMT
Doesn't matter, if it's some future AU. So Steve should be an irresponsible douchebag who doesn't even try to extend and olive branch? I suppose he should've left the others to rot in the Raft as well.No. That is nowhere near what I said. All I said was no love letter to Tony. Especially considering how heated their fight got. It was no longer a clash of principles. It was a personal fight. And the people on the Raft were there because they sided with him. Why would he leave them to rot? I said no such thing. And lets be honest: the entire movie was Steve trying to extend an olive branch. He kept trying to reason with Tony. Tony kept reacting by locking people up (Wanda) or attacking first. And he will continue to do the same thing in Infinity War. Feige and the Russo brothers have said there will be a lot of friction between Tony and Steve in some of the behind-the-scenes stuff released. Whoops. Looks like you're just wrong again.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 4, 2017 22:36:08 GMT
Yes, it's survived. Whether something survives is irrelevant to recasts upsetting the status quo. As I pointed out, Craig received a lot of flak. People were upset. Gotta disagree. It's not completely different. As I pointed out: Genius billionaire playboy suffers life altering accident and turns his life around to helping others. Right down to the quips and goatee. Iron Man or Doctor Strange? Both is the answer. Beat for beat. Both even travel to an Asian country. Nope. Recasts do not upset the status quo. People can whine all they want, but they were still going to see the new Bond film. There was zero risk. Nope. Its completely different. The very nature of the Doctor Strange persona made for a completely different experience. Nope. Pepper is still with Tony and apparently getting married to him. Strange gave up his ex completely by the end of his first film and it had long been over for her. Please continue showing us that you've never seen the film. Whether something is a risk is irrelevant to whether it is upsetting the status quo. And yes, recasts a big part of that. The fact they whined shows they were upset. Hence, upsetting the status quo. Either success or failure may follow, but the quo was still upset. The nature of Doctor Strange didn't change the beats it followed from Iron Man. Heck, they both even have a black character as their side kick. And yes, Pepper is back with Tony, despite a seemingly traumatic break up in Civil War. Once again, the status returns to quo with no explanation. Tony and Pepper are together again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 22:38:22 GMT
Nope. Recasts do not upset the status quo. People can whine all they want, but they were still going to see the new Bond film. There was zero risk. Nope. Its completely different. The very nature of the Doctor Strange persona made for a completely different experience. Nope. Pepper is still with Tony and apparently getting married to him. Strange gave up his ex completely by the end of his first film and it had long been over for her. Please continue showing us that you've never seen the film. Whether something is a risk is irrelevant to whether it is upsetting the status quo. And yes, recasts a big part of that. The fact they whined shows they were upset. Hence, upsetting the status quo. Either success or failure may follow, but the quo was still upset. The nature of Doctor Strange didn't change the beats it followed from Iron Man. Heck, they both even have a black character as their side kick. And yes, Pepper is back with Tony, despite a seemingly traumatic break up in Civil War. Once again, the status returns to quo with no explanation. Tony and Pepper are together again. The status quo in the Bond series is the same as its always been. So, no shakeup. The nature of Doctor Strange changes everything, and the black guy a sidekick comment just shows you've never seen the film. Nope. The events of Civil War just made Tony take the steps necessary to get Pepper back.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 4, 2017 22:39:04 GMT
There's more precedence to say that'll be the case: Pepper Potts. Civil War treated her and Tony's break up with some real gravitas. It was obvious losing her greatly affected Tony and may have been a factor in his state of mind. Yet by the time of Spiderman Homecoming, they're back together seemingly on their way to a public engagement. Literally none of the drama of Pepper dumping Tony is touched upon. There's just a reconciliation out of nowhere. They were on a break, and then Paltrow decided to come back so they ended the break. Easy. That's the point. Everything went back to exactly how it was. Pepper and Tony are once again an item. What Paltrow did does not excuse the lack of explanation or compete reversal to status quo with no real story to accompany it. The problem isn't that they're back together. It's that there's no story arc reason for them to be. There was no journey.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 4, 2017 22:40:41 GMT
They were on a break, and then Paltrow decided to come back so they ended the break. Easy. That's the point. Everything went back to exactly how it was. Pepper and Tony are once again an item. What Paltrow did does not excuse the lack of explanation or compete reversal to status quo with no real story to accompany it. The problem isn't that they're back together. It's that there's no story arc reason for them to be. There was no journey. There's no need for there to be a big deal out of it. In real life people have their break ups/breaks and get back together without drama.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 22:41:15 GMT
They were on a break, and then Paltrow decided to come back so they ended the break. Easy. That's the point. Everything went back to exactly how it was. Pepper and Tony are once again an item. What Paltrow did does not excuse the lack of explanation or compete reversal to status quo with no real story to accompany it. The problem isn't that they're back together. It's that there's no story arc reason for them to be. There was no journey. Except not. Starting next year, the current era of the MCU ends and we'll be losing a huge bulk of the characters, not just the actors, we'll have been with for a decade by then, and the series will be moving onto a whole new Avengers by 2019. Just keep to us that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 4, 2017 22:41:19 GMT
Whether something is a risk is irrelevant to whether it is upsetting the status quo. And yes, recasts a big part of that. The fact they whined shows they were upset. Hence, upsetting the status quo. Either success or failure may follow, but the quo was still upset. The nature of Doctor Strange didn't change the beats it followed from Iron Man. Heck, they both even have a black character as their side kick. And yes, Pepper is back with Tony, despite a seemingly traumatic break up in Civil War. Once again, the status returns to quo with no explanation. Tony and Pepper are together again. The status quo in the Bond series is the same as its always been. So, no shakeup.The nature of Doctor Strange changes everything, and the black guy a sidekick comment just shows you've never seen the film. Nope. The events of Civil War just made Tony take the steps necessary to get Pepper back. Sorry, but you can't say that when there have been half a dozen different men playing James Bond. Not to mention, most of them aren't even Scottish anymore. And we all know that Baron Mordo was played by a black man. Except nothing was shown regarding Tony getting Pepper back. They just were. Show, don't tell. It's the mantra of writers.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 4, 2017 22:43:35 GMT
That's the point. Everything went back to exactly how it was. Pepper and Tony are once again an item. What Paltrow did does not excuse the lack of explanation or compete reversal to status quo with no real story to accompany it. The problem isn't that they're back together. It's that there's no story arc reason for them to be. There was no journey. There's no need for there to be a big deal out of it. In real life people have their break ups/breaks and get back together without drama. There actually is. Considering it was made a big deal in Civil War. Several scenes were dedicated to the break up. It should've had a pay off. That's good story telling. Real life is not fiction. In fiction, drama is controlled. Civil War went out of its way to show how affected Tony was by the break up with Pepper. Homecoming brushed all that away with nary an explanation. They are happily back together.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 22:43:49 GMT
The status quo in the Bond series is the same as its always been. So, no shakeup.The nature of Doctor Strange changes everything, and the black guy a sidekick comment just shows you've never seen the film. Nope. The events of Civil War just made Tony take the steps necessary to get Pepper back. Sorry, but you can't say that when there have been half a dozen different men playing James Bond. Not to mention, most of them aren't even Scottish anymore. And we all know that Baron Mordo was played by a black man. Except nothing was shown regarding Tony getting Pepper back. They just were. Show, don't tell. It's the mantra of writers. Sorry, but you can't say that most Bond films don't follow the exact same setup and basic plot outline they've been riding since the beginning. There will always be an MI6, a Moneypenny, a Q, and an international criminal/terrorist/rogue nation that Bond needs to stop being nuking the world. That is the status quo and it is never going anywhere. Rhody is still a good guy. Mordo was no sidekick and he became a villain. You dumbass. They did show. Pepper was right there.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 4, 2017 22:48:18 GMT
Sorry, but you can't say that when there have been half a dozen different men playing James Bond. Not to mention, most of them aren't even Scottish anymore. And we all know that Baron Mordo was played by a black man. They just were. Show, don't tell. It's the mantra of writers. Sorry, but you can't say that most Bond films don't follow the exact same setup and basic plot outline they've been riding since the beginning. There will always be an MI6, a Moneypenny, a Q, and an international criminal/terrorist/rogue nation that Bond needs to stop being nuking the world. That is the status quo and it is never going anywhere. Rhody is still a good guy. Mordo was no sidekick and he became a villain. You dumbass. They did show. Pepper was right there. Bingo. And that was Doctor Strange to Iron Man. Besides, as I said, cast changes are also part of upsetting the status quo. Mordo was assisting Strange in his hero's journey. That makes him the side kick. Turning evil at the end is a difference. But small one in the grand scheme of things. Billionaire playboy turned hero with a goatee has a black side kick. Strange and Stark. Yes, they showed Pepper. I never said they didn't. Did you really think " Except nothing was shown regarding Tony getting Pepper back" meant that Pepper wasn't there at all? Pepper's appearance isn't the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 22:50:36 GMT
Sorry, but you can't say that most Bond films don't follow the exact same setup and basic plot outline they've been riding since the beginning. There will always be an MI6, a Moneypenny, a Q, and an international criminal/terrorist/rogue nation that Bond needs to stop being nuking the world. That is the status quo and it is never going anywhere. Rhody is still a good guy. Mordo was no sidekick and he became a villain. You dumbass. They did show. Pepper was right there. Bingo. And that was Doctor Strange to Iron Man. Besides, as I said, cast changes are also part of upsetting the status quo. Mordo was assisting Strange in his hero's journey. That makes him the side kick. Turning evil at the end is a difference. But small one in the grand scheme of things. Billionaire playboy turned hero with a goatee has a black side kick. Strange and Stark. Yes, they showed Pepper. I never said they didn't. Did you really think " Except nothing was shown regarding Tony getting Pepper back" meant that Pepper wasn't there at all? Pepper's appearance isn't the issue. Nope. Wrong again! Doctor Strange is completely different. Cast changes do not upset the status quo. Nope. That makes him a mentor. Wong was the sidekick. But, its a big difference in the grand scheme. Nope. Completely different. Superficial similarities do not make it even remotely identical. There is no issue at all Pepper and Tony being back together. You're just a hater who won't give the MCU any credit for its impressive feats.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 4, 2017 23:00:09 GMT
Yes, cast changes do. As many recasts in movie history have proven. Heck, some movies have completely bombed, and some have succeeded. But the point is, things are different. That's what upsetting the status quo means. It doesn't mean just a different plot. Not sure why you thought that's what it meant.
Plot points and beats aren't superficial. They're the backbone of a movie's plot. And Strange hits all the same ones Iron Man did. Mordo was the sidekick to the protagonist Strange. The Ancient One was the mentor.
It is an issue because it just put everything right back where it was. Hence, no upset status quo.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 23:04:37 GMT
Yes, cast changes do. As many recasts in movie history have proven. Heck, some movies have completely bombed, and some have succeeded. But the point is, things are different. That's what upsetting the status quo means. It doesn't mean just a different plot. Not sure why you thought that's what it meant. Plot points and beats aren't superficial. They're the backbone of a movie's plot. And Strange hits all the same ones Iron Man did. Mordo was the sidekick to the protagonist Strange. The Ancient One was the mentor. It is an issue because it just put everything right back where it was. Hence, no upset status quo. Nope. Wrong again. Recasting Bond has always been without any sort of risk. Nope. Its superficial. You're just a hater. Not even remotely true. They're completely different. Mordo was a mentor, alongside The Ancient One. Wong was the sidekick. And Mordo becomes a villain. Wrong again. It never upset the status quo in the first place. Besides which, as I said in a comment you chose to ignore, the MCU is getting a complete status quo overhaul, starting next year.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 4, 2017 23:47:45 GMT
There's no need for there to be a big deal out of it. In real life people have their break ups/breaks and get back together without drama. There actually is. Considering it was made a big deal in Civil War. Several scenes were dedicated to the break up. It should've had a pay off. That's good story telling. Real life is not fiction. In fiction, drama is controlled. Civil War went out of its way to show how affected Tony was by the break up with Pepper. Homecoming brushed all that away with nary an explanation. They are happily back together. Having every single dramatic aspect be controlled like that comes off as contrived, sometimes you don't need everything to be focused on. Civil War had that be ONE possible thing going through Tony's head, but surely not the only thing. And anyways, with all the complaints about Tony being in Homecoming having more of it be dedicated to explaining that he and Pepper got back together would've just been more ammo for the people who were out to dislike the movie. Spoonfeeding isn't exactly good for storytelling. You don't see X-Fans up in arms over how Xavier came back in DOFP without properly explaining it was due to that after credits scene in X3.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 5, 2017 13:02:11 GMT
There actually is. Considering it was made a big deal in Civil War. Several scenes were dedicated to the break up. It should've had a pay off. That's good story telling. Real life is not fiction. In fiction, drama is controlled. Civil War went out of its way to show how affected Tony was by the break up with Pepper. Homecoming brushed all that away with nary an explanation. They are happily back together. Having every single dramatic aspect be controlled like that comes off as contrived, sometimes you don't need everything to be focused on. Civil War had that be ONE possible thing going through Tony's head, but surely not the only thing. And anyways, with all the complaints about Tony being in Homecoming having more of it be dedicated to explaining that he and Pepper got back together would've just been more ammo for the people who were out to dislike the movie.Spoonfeeding isn't exactly good for storytelling. You don't see X-Fans up in arms over how Xavier came back in DOFP without properly explaining it was due to that after credits scene in X3. Then it'd be better off being saved for when it could be properly addressed instead of being thrown in as if nothing had happened. But that's the thing about X-Men. At least they had something. There is literally nothing for Tony/Pepper. One movie they're broken up and Tony is torn up about it. The next movie they're on their way to a public engagement. There is a nice comfort zone between spoonfeeding and glossing over things with no explanation. I know that's been Joss's problem since Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but I didn't think it'd spread to the rest of the MCU.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 5, 2017 13:08:44 GMT
Yes, cast changes do. As many recasts in movie history have proven. Heck, some movies have completely bombed, and some have succeeded. But the point is, things are different. That's what upsetting the status quo means. It doesn't mean just a different plot. Not sure why you thought that's what it meant. Plot points and beats aren't superficial. They're the backbone of a movie's plot. And Strange hits all the same ones Iron Man did. Mordo was the sidekick to the protagonist Strange. The Ancient One was the mentor. It is an issue because it just put everything right back where it was. Hence, no upset status quo. Nope. Wrong again. Recasting Bond has always been without any sort of risk. Nope. Its superficial. You're just a hater. Not even remotely true. They're completely different. Mordo was a mentor, alongside The Ancient One. Wong was the sidekick. And Mordo becomes a villain. Wrong again. It never upset the status quo in the first place. Besides which, as I said in a comment you chose to ignore, the MCU is getting a complete status quo overhaul, starting next year. Even Daniel Craig proves that's not true. He was a big risk. Many people didn't like his casting. Besides, again no risk doesn't mean the status quo wasn't upset. You can upset the status quo without taking a risk. They're not intertwined. Sorry, but plot is not superficial. It's the whole point of movies. Pretty crucial to them. Mordo had more screentime and played a bigger part in Stephen's journey. He was the sidekick. And as for Strange not getting the girl at the end, thank you. That's another way it's like Iron Man. Tony didn't get the girl at the end of Iron Man 1 either. Like I said, Strange is just a retread. "It never upset the status quo in the first place." That's pretty much what I've been saying. Marvel doesn't like to upset the status quo. Glad you finally see the light.
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