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Post by harpospoke on Nov 24, 2017 16:30:04 GMT
Except Iron Man proves you wrong. That came out before Disney was involved and still grossed more than any Fox Xmen movie. Iron Man: $318,412,101 Highest X-movie: $234,362,462 You'll need a new excuse. Nah, Iron Man had artificial boosters and was creatively bankrupt and made the villains the stars and was too grounded. Not possible to have "artificial boosters" for a brand new property from a brand new studio. Fox had a 70 year head start on Marvel studios and still couldn't get a single movie over 250m. Your opinion of the "creativity" obviously has no place in this conversation.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 24, 2017 16:34:36 GMT
Except Iron Man proves you wrong. That came out before Disney was involved and still grossed more than any Fox Xmen movie. Iron Man: $318,412,101 Highest X-movie: $234,362,462 You'll need a new excuse. Fixed. And if you come with the box office, release the real numbers, not only domestic. I had the correct number. That's where things stood in 2008 before Disney was a part of the picture. Throwing Deadpool into the mix is ignoring that Fox wanted nothing to do with that property for a decade, screwed the character up in one of the most epic fails in CBM history, and eventually just threw a small budget at RR so he could make the biggest success they ever had by a large margin. Fox has even benefited from Marvel raising the profile for the Marvel brand over the years. DP had success because Fox was NOT involved. It only reinforces the point that Fox doesn't really know what they are doing most of the time compared to other studios. They are the least successful of the big 4 studios making CBMs. It's pretty embarrassing for them.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Nov 24, 2017 16:35:41 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if Disney could buy the 21st century.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 24, 2017 16:39:14 GMT
Fake fans maybe. Real and true Marvel fans, doesn't have any problem with the X-Men movies. Because they can seperate Comics and movies. The idea that "true Marvel fans" want movies that utterly waste great characters like Phoenix, Galactus, Rogue, Silver Surfer, Cyclops, Dr Doom, Storm, Colossus, etc is a bold claim. Apparently "true Marvel fans" want movies that also waste great stories like Age of Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix too. There is no defense for the epic fail that is Fox "Marvel". Even Sony and WB have done a better job and that's embarrassing. The only reason to defend them is being a Marvel hater who doesn't want Marvel to have all their characters.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 24, 2017 16:55:01 GMT
I heard this as well but, I have not been able to find any proof online or in print. Do you have a link from a solid source to corroborate? If this is true, it's obviously big news. The only thing to worry about now is the DOJ interference in the AT&T/TW deal. Fox and their buyer might get the same treatment. Oh, and there's that pesky monopolies running the planet problem but meh, at least the FF and X-Men will be home. Hee hee hee... The AT&T/TW thing won't be a problem if Disney sits back and lets the rights revert back to them. They are just reacquiring assets. It might be a problem if the Trump administration decided to treat the sale of Fox the same way they are treating the sale of TW to AT&T. But, you're right, it's not a problem if the Fox sale goes through without any resistance at home or abroad.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Nov 24, 2017 17:28:21 GMT
Lol, sounds like a nerd legend. So, if selling the IP-holding entity those lucrative IP rights transfer back automatically without any payment? Yes, because the movie rights were sold to Fox and Fox alone. Not something they can just transfer to anyone. This is nonsense, you do not understand the legal concept of ownership. It does not require a lawyer to see that. But it helps being one and knowing that such a detrimental clause would be highly unusual. All we know that Fox own the IP and thus are entitled to do whatever they want with it. There is no evidence that the ownership is somehow limited except you making unproven claims.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 24, 2017 17:31:21 GMT
Fake fans maybe. Real and true Marvel fans, doesn't have any problem with the X-Men movies. Because they can seperate Comics and movies. The idea that "true Marvel fans" want movies that utterly waste great characters like Phoenix, Galactus, Rogue, Silver Surfer, Cyclops, Dr Doom, Storm, Colossus, etc is a bold claim. Apparently "true Marvel fans" want movies that also waste great stories like Age of Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix too. Disney would water down age of apocalypse beyond recognition. At least in Foxs Apocalypse there was violence and brutality that pushed the pg13 rating to its limits. Yeah, Disney might produce a better looking apocalypse but they would absolutely tone down the deaths, rhetorical themes and mass cullings. No thank you, dont want another pathetic age of ultron or ragnarok which are supposed mass extinction events. Lets see how this rendition of dark.phoneix turns out. And only characters you have mentioned that were "wasted" are Galactus and Dr Doom. The rest have been underused and not focused on purposely. Fox already shown it can produce great characters like magneto eric and xavier if they dedicate screen time to them. No reason why they cant do that now with Storm jean cyclops. Yeah fox has such a terrible record, only 3 rotten films out of 11. Go to sleep.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 24, 2017 18:16:10 GMT
Nah, Iron Man had artificial boosters and was creatively bankrupt and made the villains the stars and was too grounded. Not possible to have "artificial boosters" for a brand new property from a brand new studio. Fox had a 70 year head start on Marvel studios and still couldn't get a single movie over 250m. Your opinion of the "creativity" obviously has no place in this conversation. Nope, had boosters. Disney paid critics. Too grounded, and it made villains the stars and it was creatively bankrupt whether you like it or not, HarpoChode.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 24, 2017 18:45:52 GMT
Not possible to have "artificial boosters" for a brand new property from a brand new studio. Fox had a 70 year head start on Marvel studios and still couldn't get a single movie over 250m. Your opinion of the "creativity" obviously has no place in this conversation. Nope, had boosters. Disney paid critics. Too grounded, and it made villains the stars and it was creatively bankrupt whether you like it or not, HarpoChode. I gotta say I'm impressed with that Disney money. They had so much of it they decided to pay critics to give good reviews to a movie from another studio. I wonder if I can get in on that benevolent charity from Disney? You've strayed off the Marvel Haters Handbook© a bit here though. The talking point is supposed to be "Marvel has weak villains"...not "they make villains the star of the movie". I realize the fake complaints about Marvel are a fluid thing according to the situation, but that's a little too far off the track.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 24, 2017 20:03:37 GMT
Nope, had boosters. Disney paid critics. Too grounded, and it made villains the stars and it was creatively bankrupt whether you like it or not, HarpoChode. I gotta say I'm impressed with that Disney money. They had so much of it they decided to pay critics to give good reviews to a movie from another studio. I wonder if I can get in on that benevolent charity from Disney? You've strayed off the Marvel Haters Handbook© a bit here though. The talking point is supposed to be "Marvel has weak villains"...not "they make villains the star of the movie". I realize the fake complaints about Marvel are a fluid thing according to the situation, but that's a little too far off the track. No one knows the details of the Fox Marvel deals for certain. What is known is that Marvel had the worst copyright lawyer in history working for them when they were in negotiations with Fox. I'm not a lawyer. That said, it appears that Marvel granted exclusive copyright licenses to Fox for several Marvel characters to be used in the context of the film media. Effectively, this means that only Fox, the entity who is licensing the rights, can use them. Marvel, as the copyright owner, can’t even use them while the license is in place. As I understand it, a copyright license can be perpetual or time-limited. When an entity has an exclusive, perpetual copyright license that covers all the copyright rights to a work, it is effectively a copyright assignment, except that the ownership of the copyright hasn't changed (i.e., the characters still belong to Marvel. They just don't have the right to make a movie about them). So Marvel effectively sold the X-Men, the Fantastic Four and several other characters to Fox for use in movies in perpetuity. The only publicly identified nullifying clause appears to be a failure to produce a film within a specified period. This clause was likely introduced to avoid the licensee sitting on the IP and thus preventing Marvel from earning, licencing fees, merchandising revenue or other ancillary income (as is applicable). In short, it was a dumb fucking deal. People strung out on crack don't make deals like this.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 24, 2017 20:22:12 GMT
The idea that "true Marvel fans" want movies that utterly waste great characters like Phoenix, Galactus, Rogue, Silver Surfer, Cyclops, Dr Doom, Storm, Colossus, etc is a bold claim. Apparently "true Marvel fans" want movies that also waste great stories like Age of Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix too. Disney would water down age of apocalypse beyond recognition. At least in Foxs Apocalypse there was violence and brutality that pushed the pg13 rating to its limits. Yeah, Disney might produce a better looking apocalypse but they would absolutely tone down the deaths, rhetorical themes and mass cullings. No thank you, dont want another pathetic age of ultron or ragnarok which are supposed mass extinction events. Lets see how this rendition of dark.phoneix turns out. And only characters you have mentioned that were "wasted" are Galactus and Dr Doom. The rest have been underused and not focused on purposely. Fox already shown it can produce great characters like magneto eric and xavier if they dedicate screen time to them. No reason why they cant do that now with Storm jean cyclops. Yeah fox has such a terrible record, only 3 rotten films out of 11. Go to sleep. But all they'll do is turn other characters into that character. Everyone has the same assenting or dissenting voice. They are either a variant of Xavier or Magneto. What violence and brutality was there in Apocalypse? I think Marvel understands the meaning of usable characters. That's why they really don't have major character deaths. They know they can still use that character. That's why they have multiples of the same character in the X-men movies. They kill them and bring them back as a different character or change the look of them or change their age. Not understanding that there are other characters with the same power or a similar story. And Ragnarok was not a mass extinction event. It's about the end of Asgard. How many of those movies did a good chunk of the general audience go see? Or even like afterward? 3, maybe 4? I bet DoFP made all that money only because people liked First Class (not in theaters though). Notice the drop off on Apocalypse. Guessing that's because those people didn't really like DoFP as much as First Class and decided to skip Apocalypse.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 24, 2017 20:32:59 GMT
I gotta say I'm impressed with that Disney money. They had so much of it they decided to pay critics to give good reviews to a movie from another studio. I wonder if I can get in on that benevolent charity from Disney? You've strayed off the Marvel Haters Handbook© a bit here though. The talking point is supposed to be "Marvel has weak villains"...not "they make villains the star of the movie". I realize the fake complaints about Marvel are a fluid thing according to the situation, but that's a little too far off the track. No one knows the details of the Fox Marvel deals for certain. What is known is that Marvel had the worst copyright lawyer in history working for them when they were in negotiations with Fox. I'm not a lawyer. That said, it appears that Marvel granted exclusive copyright licenses to Fox for several Marvel characters to be used in the context of the film media. Effectively, this means that only Fox, the entity who is licensing the rights, can use them. Marvel, as the copyright owner, can’t even use them while the license is in place. As I understand it, a copyright license can be perpetual or time-limited. When an entity has an exclusive, perpetual copyright license that covers all the copyright rights to a work, it is effectively a copyright assignment, except that the ownership of the copyright hasn't changed (i.e., the characters still belong to Marvel. They just don't have the right to make a movie about them). So Marvel effectively sold the X-Men, the Fantastic Four and several other characters to Fox for use in movies in perpetuity. The only publicly identified nullifying clause appears to be a failure to produce a film within a specified period. This clause was likely introduced to avoid the licensee sitting on the IP and thus preventing Marvel from earning, licencing fees, merchandising revenue or other ancillary income (as is applicable). In short, it was a dumb fucking deal. People strung out on crack don't make deals like this. Marvel can do merchandising and such, but it has to be the comics version. They can't do it for the movies. I'm thinking that's why the movies can't make the costumes look exactly like (or close to) the comics. I think Marvel chose not to do merchandising because it would be free marketing for Fox. And yes I think Marvel should have done both a timed deal along with the one for them not making movies.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 24, 2017 20:44:50 GMT
The idea that "true Marvel fans" want movies that utterly waste great characters like Phoenix, Galactus, Rogue, Silver Surfer, Cyclops, Dr Doom, Storm, Colossus, etc is a bold claim. Apparently "true Marvel fans" want movies that also waste great stories like Age of Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix too. Disney would water down age of apocalypse beyond recognition. At least in Foxs Apocalypse there was violence and brutality that pushed the pg13 rating to its limits. Yeah, Disney might produce a better looking apocalypse but they would absolutely tone down the deaths, rhetorical themes and mass cullings. No thank you, dont want another pathetic age of ultron or ragnarok which are supposed mass extinction events. Lets see how this rendition of dark.phoneix turns out. And only characters you have mentioned that were "wasted" are Galactus and Dr Doom. The rest have been underused and not focused on purposely. Fox already shown it can produce great characters like magneto eric and xavier if they dedicate screen time to them. No reason why they cant do that now with Storm jean cyclops. Yeah fox has such a terrible record, only 3 rotten films out of 11. Go to sleep. This is how weak the argument is. We actually know what Fox does with Marvel properties. They fail. They've failed with the two biggest X-men stories and failed completely with FF. We've seen them utterly fail with Dark Phoenix but of course the argument is "Lets see how this rendition of dark phoneix turns out". How many chances are you going to give them? Let me guess....you would condemn any failure by Marvel after one instance. But you don't even have a failure from Marvel to hang any claim on. Check out their "record"....17-0. So going by your own metric, that means Marvel is doing a better job than Fox (as if everyone didn't already know that). In direct contrast to reality, you actually claim "would" as if there is anything to back up the idea that Marvel would do a worse job than Fox. I love the revised claim that suddenly Fox has been making R rated Xmen movies. No...they make PG-13 movies just like Marvel. Ryan Reynolds is the one who got them to do an R rated movie. That never would have happened without him. (or are we going to erase all the previous Wolverine movies now?) Obviously history shows that Marvel "would" make a better Apocalypse movie than Fox did. And of course Marvel haters would claim it's "watered down" (as if Fox made it rated R or something). And they absolutely wasted Jean, Storm, Cyclops, Rogue, Colossus, Kitty Pryde, Ice Man, Angel, Deadpool, and even Nightcrawler except for one movie. You spin that with "underused" as if that's not the same thing. They've had all those great characters for almost 18 years and that's what we've gotten. Congrats to Fox for doing well with 3 characters out of the entire Marvel lineup in 18 years. To the Marvel hater, that argument actually makes sense. Fascinating to watch this weak argument in action. Fox has obviously lagged behind every other major studio making CBMs.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 24, 2017 21:16:20 GMT
No one knows the details of the Fox Marvel deals for certain. What is known is that Marvel had the worst copyright lawyer in history working for them when they were in negotiations with Fox. I'm not a lawyer. That said, it appears that Marvel granted exclusive copyright licenses to Fox for several Marvel characters to be used in the context of the film media. Effectively, this means that only Fox, the entity who is licensing the rights, can use them. Marvel, as the copyright owner, can’t even use them while the license is in place. As I understand it, a copyright license can be perpetual or time-limited. When an entity has an exclusive, perpetual copyright license that covers all the copyright rights to a work, it is effectively a copyright assignment, except that the ownership of the copyright hasn't changed (i.e., the characters still belong to Marvel. They just don't have the right to make a movie about them). So Marvel effectively sold the X-Men, the Fantastic Four and several other characters to Fox for use in movies in perpetuity. The only publicly identified nullifying clause appears to be a failure to produce a film within a specified period. This clause was likely introduced to avoid the licensee sitting on the IP and thus preventing Marvel from earning, licencing fees, merchandising revenue or other ancillary income (as is applicable). In short, it was a dumb fucking deal. People strung out on crack don't make deals like this. Marvel can do merchandising and such, but it has to be the comics version. They can't do it for the movies. I'm thinking that's why the movies can't make the costumes look exactly like (or close to) the comics. I think Marvel chose not to do merchandising because it would be free marketing for Fox. And yes I think Marvel should have done both a timed deal along with the one for them not making movies. Does Marvel get a % of the revenue generated by the Fox films? Most detractors would immediately argue no (without actually having been in the room when the deal was made). It would make sense that a licensing deal would pay out a percentage of the profits earned by the licensee to the licenser - assuming that the licenser's goal in licensing the rights was to have a passive revenue stream.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 24, 2017 21:23:40 GMT
But all they'll do is turn other characters into that character. Everyone has the same assenting or dissenting voice. They are either a variant of Xavier or Magneto. I dont see how different characters are just extensions of magneto and xavier. Logan, nightcrawler, quicksilver, scott, mistique in the recent films have had their own personalities and stances. I can see for someone like Hank McCoy that may be just an Xavier-lite but not for anyone else. If you want to talk clones of one another, then antman, starlord, thor (now) and stark are all slightly different shades of the same goofy, cocky, arrogant base personality shtick. The opening scene where people are straight up crushed and burnt alive. Wooden arrow impaling magnetos daughter and wife through the chest. Magneto slicing through the cops necks. Apocalypse decapitating the thugs heads with sand. Apocalypse leveling a fully populated Cairo. Apocalypse breaking Peters leg in a close up. Wolverines weapon X sequence is the most violent one seen before Logan. Even Angels transformation with the metal wings from his bones is gory and brutal. None of these would be in a family friendly Disney movie. At least Fox can give justice to Apocalypses brutal unforgiving nature in that regard and not hold back. What did Ultron do, slice off some guys arm in the most unrealistic manner ever. Xmen started with no vision of a larger extended universe so theres bound to be some recasts and inconsistent character portrayals. I dont see it as a big deal if its just some support minor characters like Jubilee or Caliban. MCU has the advantage of being started after studying other franchise universes' continuity errors. Invoking the box office numbers to show the quality of movies is not smart. If movie audiences were actually clued up then First Class shouldn't have made $200m less than freakin Antman.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 24, 2017 21:40:25 GMT
This is how weak the argument is. We actually know what Fox does with Marvel properties. They fail. They've failed with the two biggest X-men stories and failed completely with FF. We've seen them utterly fail with Dark Phoenix but of course the argument is "Lets see how this rendition of dark phoneix turns out". How many chances are you going to give them? Let me guess....you would condemn any failure by Marvel after one instance. We know what Marvel would do as well looking at their movies so its not just guesswork, its projection. X3 was a victim of circumstance with backstage problems in securing Singer/Marsden to finish his trilogy. If Fox where well prepared and focused then X3 would have executed a great Dark Phoenix story as all the setup was well established from Singers first 2 X-films. And the Dark Phoenix story in X3 was actually good for what we got, its just the fact that Kinberg wanted to forcefully inject the cure story line which congested the film especially when it was only about 1 hour 40 minutes. Apocalypse didn't ''utterly'' fail, it got mixed reviews. Stop lying. I only gave the Xfilms rotten tomato scores to prove you clearly wrong when you said the Xfilms have been an epic disaster. I don't really care about RT scores for marvel, most of them dont deserve it. Disney Marvel is not the right place for Xmen stories to be told because they are kid friendly, cookie cutter generic films, and no real Xmen fan would want them to sacrifice that just to see wolverine say hey bub to ironman. No as I said to guyson, even in pg13 films Fox pushes the limit on violence, brutality and heavy handed themes like addiction and suicid. There is no way if Disney wanted to do a Age of apocalypse they would have holocaust and nur cull millions of humans with no mercy or have Deadpools head pulled off. I would be real surprised if we see Thanos wipe out half of the universe, rip Starks head off or even have mistress death on screen. Fixed.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 25, 2017 1:53:57 GMT
Nope, had boosters. Disney paid critics. Too grounded, and it made villains the stars and it was creatively bankrupt whether you like it or not, HarpoChode. I gotta say I'm impressed with that Disney money. They had so much of it they decided to pay critics to give good reviews to a movie from another studio. I wonder if I can get in on that benevolent charity from Disney? You've strayed off the Marvel Haters Handbook© a bit here though. The talking point is supposed to be "Marvel has weak villains"...not "they make villains the star of the movie". I realize the fake complaints about Marvel are a fluid thing according to the situation, but that's a little too far off the track. Nah, whatever you wrote is wrong and it's the opposite of those things.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 25, 2017 2:22:30 GMT
Yes, because the movie rights were sold to Fox and Fox alone. Not something they can just transfer to anyone. This is nonsense, you do not understand the legal concept of ownership. Fox doesn't own the X-Men completely, they just have movie rights.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 25, 2017 2:24:04 GMT
This is nonsense, you do not understand the legal concept of ownership. Fox doesn't own the X-Men completely, they just have movie rights. Nah, they rightfully own everything.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 25, 2017 2:24:05 GMT
Disney would water down age of apocalypse beyond recognition. Considering Age of Apocalypse was a crap storyline, anything would be an improvement. Disney gave us the total destruction of a world and a great people being reduced to scragglers on a single ship. Fox wouldn't have the balls for that. Same thing.
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