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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Sept 1, 2018 11:57:25 GMT
The treatment of The Mandarin was definitely a problem for many, remember that controversy? Personally I feel that Marvel missing out on building up a supervillain team. The real problem with Iron Man 3 and the Mandarin was that they pulled off the twist so well, audience goers really were sucked in and no one likes being made to feel foolish or admit they were fooled. Even if that was the whole point, to essentially prank the audience. Look at Dark Knight Rises and how everyone pretty much guessed the Talia twist before the movie came out. No one was upset, because no one was fooled. Because, you fucking imbecile, the Talia "Twist" was spoiled from the set photos. Also when Nolan said that The Dark Knight Rises was going to bring it full circle with Batman Begins, we all knew Talia was going to be in it. So in reality none of us, save for the gullible retards who took the actress word, we're surprised that her character was in the film. Marvel has no excuse other than that they're abunch of fucking pussies who had to resort to fucking white washing because they don't want to "offend" people. Sometimes I wish you weren't banned from here simply because I want to fight you. |
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Post by hobowar on Sept 1, 2018 14:48:18 GMT
Between Zod, Lex Luthor, Aries, Steppenwolf and whoever the bad guy was in Suicide Squad, I don't think anyone does villains worse the DC at this point.
Bane and Talia were both hilariously crap as well.
Malekith was like Hannibal Lector compared to all of these.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 17:06:20 GMT
Because CBM fans often don’t like productive discussion or valid criticisms. You’d think one would admit that yes, villains from both DC and the MCU are weak but instead everyone gets their balls in a tangle and scream that it’s perfect as it is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 23:27:05 GMT
A great movie villain is comprised of four things (in my opinion)
1) Character depth (more than just an evil mustache twirling baddie)
2) Great visual design (assuming it's a fantasy, sci fi or comic book movie)
3) Commanding on-screen presence. (think Darth Vader or the Universal monsters)
4) Compelling conflict with the protagonist. Which is to say that a good villain must create extreme opposition for the main character.
I believe a lot of MCU movies fail miserably at 3-4. Many succeed at half. And some fail at all four. Only a few succeed at all four.
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Post by No Morpho, Only Bánh mì on Sept 2, 2018 3:52:24 GMT
A great movie villain is comprised of four things (in my opinion) 1) Character depth (more than just an evil mustache twirling baddie) 2) Great visual design (assuming it's a fantasy, sci fi or comic book movie) 3) Commanding on-screen presence. (think Darth Vader or the Universal monsters) 4) Compelling conflict with the protagonist. Which is to say that a good villain must create extreme opposition for the main character. I believe a lot of MCU movies fail miserably at 3-4. Many succeed at half. And some fail at all four. Only a few succeed at all four. I think this calls for a post grading every single antagonist in these four categories. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 5:34:27 GMT
A great movie villain is comprised of four things (in my opinion) 1) Character depth (more than just an evil mustache twirling baddie) 2) Great visual design (assuming it's a fantasy, sci fi or comic book movie) 3) Commanding on-screen presence. (think Darth Vader or the Universal monsters) 4) Compelling conflict with the protagonist. Which is to say that a good villain must create extreme opposition for the main character. I believe a lot of MCU movies fail miserably at 3-4. Many succeed at half. And some fail at all four. Only a few succeed at all four. I think this calls for a post grading every single antagonist in these four categories. Hmm. Sounds like a lotta work! (Especially since I'm half drunk!) |
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 2, 2018 7:22:42 GMT
A great movie villain is comprised of four things (in my opinion) 1) Character depth (more than just an evil mustache twirling baddie) 2) Great visual design (assuming it's a fantasy, sci fi or comic book movie) 3) Commanding on-screen presence. (think Darth Vader or the Universal monsters) 4) Compelling conflict with the protagonist. Which is to say that a good villain must create extreme opposition for the main character. I believe a lot of MCU movies fail miserably at 3-4. Many succeed at half. And some fail at all four. Only a few succeed at all four. Majority of cbm villains will fail to match all 4 categories here. That said, there are probably more MCU villains that can match all 4 of these than other studio villains. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 18:27:10 GMT
A great movie villain is comprised of four things (in my opinion) 1) Character depth (more than just an evil mustache twirling baddie) 2) Great visual design (assuming it's a fantasy, sci fi or comic book movie) 3) Commanding on-screen presence. (think Darth Vader or the Universal monsters) 4) Compelling conflict with the protagonist. Which is to say that a good villain must create extreme opposition for the main character. I believe a lot of MCU movies fail miserably at 3-4. Many succeed at half. And some fail at all four. Only a few succeed at all four. Majority of cbm villains will fail to match all 4 categories here. That said, there are probably more MCU villains that can match all 4 of these than other studio villains. Well, that's true. But they still shouldve set the bar higher. |
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 2, 2018 19:42:45 GMT
Majority of cbm villains will fail to match all 4 categories here. That said, there are probably more MCU villains that can match all 4 of these than other studio villains. Well, that's true. But they still shouldve set the bar higher. Who should have set the bar higher? The MCU or the cbms in general? And to be fair, the bar has already been set higher. Back in the day your standard evil, mustache-twirling, I-want-to-conquer the world villain was accepted as standard and average. It was what equaled a decent villain. Nowadays that kind of villain is seen as weak and hollow. So the bar HAS been set higher. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 20:22:37 GMT
Well, that's true. But they still shouldve set the bar higher. Who should have set the bar higher? The MCU or the cbms in general? And to be fair, the bar has already been set higher. Back in the day your standard evil, mustache-twirling, I-want-to-conquer the world villain was accepted as standard and average. It was what equaled a decent villain. Nowadays that kind of villain is seen as weak and hollow. So the bar HAS been set higher. The MCU should have set the bar higher. TDK trilogy and the original Spiderman trilogy set a much higher bar. Especially in regard to my numbers 3-4 listed above. The MCU does a decent job with 1-2 most of the time so that's not a huge issue anyway. And this notion that old movies have weak one dimensional villains while modern movies have a higher standard is just plain wrong. |
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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 8, 2018 17:04:04 GMT
I think every good comic book superhero movie should have an interesting, engaging, and fleshed out villain with a commanding presence and direct conflict with the hero. A lot of people here have brought up that lots of action movies and even movies of other genres did just fine with or without a great villain. But to me, the superhero genre is the one in which this element should be the most important, the best comics I've read almost always had a well done hero/villain dynamic. That's the best thing about the comics and their movie adaptions to me, watching an awesome hero battle an awesome villain. Other movie genres don't necessarily need that, although it does help most of the time.
In my opinion, super hero movies should have a properly done hero with an equally compelling villain to match. I've always considered those the two most important elements. If the hero is done great and is really fleshed out with a weak and generic villain, that's a problem. If the villain overshadows the hero and has a much greater presence making the hero only there to oppose him without any depth, that's also a problem. Both of them should be done well and most of the highest regarded superhero movies should have that element. It's entirely possible for a great superhero movie to exist without it, but I feel like it always would have been improved by such. Just my two cents.
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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 8, 2018 17:15:19 GMT
And yes, I also think the MCU is pretty notorious for mostly having weak villains (with some exceptions like Loki, Thanos, Vulture, etc.). Iron Man 2 and 3 especially could have been way better with more charismatic and appealing antagonists. I'm not saying that the DCEU or the X-Men films (which don't have a lot of great ones either outside of Magneto and Stryker) did a whole lot better but, after movies like The Dark Knight and Spider-Man 2, there should now be a standard.
Also, I know plenty of people in person that agree the MCU hasn't quite mastered a way to balance out great heroes with equally great villains. Some do, others don't. And since when are people "on the internet" not "people in real life"? Are users on forums and such not real people? Is the internet not made up of a large body of people? If anything, "people on the internet" (which is, essentially, the entire world) are obviously a much larger body than "people you know in real life". So, I think that should quite obviously hold some merit. Saying that the consensus of five or six people you work with is a more reliable source than millions upon millions of users on the net seems a bit illogical. Plus the fact that likely no one is ever going to mention the people they know in real life who disagree with their opinion and are accordingly just using them towards some type of point. "I think all MCU villains were done perfectly although everyone I know in real life does not". Yeah, not gonna happen.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 8, 2018 17:35:04 GMT
The only great villains CBMs ever produced are Joker and Magneto in various incarnations - if a character works regardless of the actor, it's a sign of quality. A hero is only as good as the villain he has to overcome, inner demons and stuff.
Then there are many decent ones, like Catwoman, Zod, Goblin, Loki, Lex Luther, Bane, Thanos etc.
Then there are the mediocre to forgettable rest who are just throwaway plot devices pretentiously giving the hero something to do.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 8, 2018 18:15:36 GMT
I noticed that criticizing anything in any fandoms tend to create controversy.
I'll never forget my experience with Star Wars fans on Reddit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 18:52:56 GMT
And yes, I also think the MCU is pretty notorious for mostly having weak villains (with some exceptions like Loki, Thanos, Vulture, etc.). Iron Man 2 and 3 especially could have been way better with more charismatic and appealing antagonists. I'm not saying that the DCEU or the X-Men films (which don't have a lot of great ones either outside of Magneto and Stryker) did a whole lot better but, after movies like The Dark Knight and Spider-Man 2, there should now be a standard. Also, I know plenty of people in person that agree the MCU hasn't quite mastered a way to balance out great heroes with equally great villains. Some do, others don't. And since when are people "on the internet" not "people in real life"? Are users on forums and such not real people? Is the internet not made up of a large body of people? If anything, "people on the internet" (which is, essentially, the entire world) are obviously a much larger body than "people you know in real life". So, I think that should quite obviously hold some merit. Saying that the consensus of five or six people you work with is a more reliable source than millions upon millions of users on the net seems a bit illogical. Plus the fact that likely no one is ever going to mention the people they know in real life who disagree with their opinion and are accordingly just using them towards some type of point. "I think all MCU villains were done perfectly although everyone I know in real life does not". Yeah, not gonna happen. I see your mission is to go around resurrecting topics just to piss all over the MCU. Another troll. Should have figured. Tell me, HorrorMetal, what is the percentage of Good Villains vs. Forgettable Villains in all of cinema. How many great villains does each studio produce a year? I'll bet once you've calculated it, the percentage will be very, very small. Well, the MCU is Marvel Studio's ENTIRE bulk of work. Not all of their villains may stand among the best villains of all time, but neither does any other studio's. So this is all a moot point that's only a big deal because people who want to feel important keep making it a big deal. Now find something better to do than attempting to undercut the MCU. |
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 8, 2018 18:57:58 GMT
Who should have set the bar higher? The MCU or the cbms in general? And to be fair, the bar has already been set higher. Back in the day your standard evil, mustache-twirling, I-want-to-conquer the world villain was accepted as standard and average. It was what equaled a decent villain. Nowadays that kind of villain is seen as weak and hollow. So the bar HAS been set higher. The MCU should have set the bar higher. TDK trilogy and the original Spiderman trilogy set a much higher bar. Especially in regard to my numbers 3-4 listed above. The MCU does a decent job with 1-2 most of the time so that's not a huge issue anyway. And this notion that old movies have weak one dimensional villains while modern movies have a higher standard is just plain wrong. Not true. Raimi's SM movies gave us 2 good (but not great) villains and 2 crappy villains. The TDK trilogy gave us 1 great villain, 2 decent villains and the rest were forgettable. The MCU has already given us at least 3 great villains and around 8 or so good to decent villains. The MCU, by virtue of having more movies, have resulted in giving us more crappy villains than either the TDK or Raimi trilogies but they've also given us a lot more good to great villains. But it is incorrect to say that their bar for villains is any worse than the two trilogies. |
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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 8, 2018 19:16:03 GMT
And yes, I also think the MCU is pretty notorious for mostly having weak villains (with some exceptions like Loki, Thanos, Vulture, etc.). Iron Man 2 and 3 especially could have been way better with more charismatic and appealing antagonists. I'm not saying that the DCEU or the X-Men films (which don't have a lot of great ones either outside of Magneto and Stryker) did a whole lot better but, after movies like The Dark Knight and Spider-Man 2, there should now be a standard. Also, I know plenty of people in person that agree the MCU hasn't quite mastered a way to balance out great heroes with equally great villains. Some do, others don't. And since when are people "on the internet" not "people in real life"? Are users on forums and such not real people? Is the internet not made up of a large body of people? If anything, "people on the internet" (which is, essentially, the entire world) are obviously a much larger body than "people you know in real life". So, I think that should quite obviously hold some merit. Saying that the consensus of five or six people you work with is a more reliable source than millions upon millions of users on the net seems a bit illogical. Plus the fact that likely no one is ever going to mention the people they know in real life who disagree with their opinion and are accordingly just using them towards some type of point. "I think all MCU villains were done perfectly although everyone I know in real life does not". Yeah, not gonna happen. I see your mission is to go around resurrecting topics just to piss all over the MCU. Another troll. Should have figured. Tell me, HorrorMetal, what is the percentage of Good Villains vs. Forgettable Villains in all of cinema. How many great villains does each studio produce a year? I'll bet once you've calculated it, the percentage will be very, very small. Well, the MCU is Marvel Studio's ENTIRE bulk of work. Not all of their villains may stand among the best villains of all time, but neither does any other studio's. So this is all a moot point that's only a big deal because people who want to feel important keep making it a big deal. Now find something better to do than attempting to undercut the MCU. Oh dear god, please don't tell me you're gong to start following me around this board and plaguing every single post I interact with. You're wrong. Not a troll at all, and if you had read any of my previous responses to you, you'd see that I ACTUALLY AGREED WITH YOU ON MOST POINTS! Shocking, I know, but now that you've revealed that you just want to win arguments and call anyone who disagrees with you as a "troll" (so cliché), I shouldn't have even attempted a friendly discussion. I resurrected one old thread (that's right, just ONE!) because I saw it as a subject worth talking about. And also, this isn't an old thread at all. This was was the first thread on the first page (other than the pinned ones) when I originally clicked on it. Here's another shock, and something I mentioned in my other post which you ignored, I'm a huge MCU fan. But does that mean I'm gonna worship every single thing they do and think that they're capable of doing no wrong (which is something you probably do)? No. I'm gonna be objective about it. The only two movies I disliked were Iron Man 3 and Homecoming. Also, I find that they haven't done the best with their villains which, as I also already mentioned, seems to be getting better now. So yeah, it may look like I'm another troll that just wants to criticize the MCU (there are many here, but I'm not one of them) but that's just not true. You threw me into that category based on what, two different posts? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 19:33:02 GMT
I see your mission is to go around resurrecting topics just to piss all over the MCU. Another troll. Should have figured. Tell me, HorrorMetal, what is the percentage of Good Villains vs. Forgettable Villains in all of cinema. How many great villains does each studio produce a year? I'll bet once you've calculated it, the percentage will be very, very small. Well, the MCU is Marvel Studio's ENTIRE bulk of work. Not all of their villains may stand among the best villains of all time, but neither does any other studio's. So this is all a moot point that's only a big deal because people who want to feel important keep making it a big deal. Now find something better to do than attempting to undercut the MCU. Oh dear god, please don't tell me you're gong to start following me around this board and plaguing every single post I interact with. You're wrong. Not a troll at all, and if you had read any of my previous responses to you, you'd see that I ACTUALLY AGREED WITH YOU ON MOST POINTS! Shocking, I know, but now that you've revealed that you just want to win arguments and call anyone who disagrees with you as a "troll" (so cliché), I shouldn't have even attempted a friendly discussion. I resurrected one old thread (that's right, just ONE!) because I saw it as a subject worth talking about. And also, this isn't an old thread at all. This was was the first thread on the first page (other than the pinned ones) when I originally clicked on it. Here's another shock, and something I mentioned in my other post which you ignored, I'm a huge MCU fan. But does that mean I'm gonna worship every single thing they do and think that they're capable of doing no wrong (which is something you probably do)? No. I'm gonna be objective about it. The only two movies I disliked were Iron Man 3 and Homecoming. Also, I find that they haven't done the best with their villains which, as I also already mentioned, seems to be getting better now. So yeah, it may look like I'm another troll that just wants to criticize the MCU (there are many here, but I'm not one of them) but that's just not true. You threw me into that category based on what, two different posts? Hey, if I got the wrong idea about you, it's because all of your recent activity here on the MCU board has been throat-punching the series. You haven't even bothered replying to any positive topics about it. I stand by my statement that most villains in all of cinema are just average-to-forgettable. Hell, most other villains in non-MCU superhero films are average-to-forgettable. Sure, Jack Nicholson's Joker was great, but Penguin and Catwoman were just average, and the Schumacher villains are memorable for all the wrongs reasons. Sure, McKellen's Magneto is great, but Stryker in the second film is as by-the-numbers as they come, same with every other X-Men villain in that film series. Sure, Ledger's The Joker was great because of the performer, but Ra's al Ghul, and The Scarecrow are just average, and Bane was a gross misrepresentation of the character. So yeah, great villains even in other superhero films are the minority, too. If you're going to criticize the MCU for having a lot of average or forgettable villains, then you also have to apply that to the rest of cinema. |
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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 8, 2018 19:40:02 GMT
Oh dear god, please don't tell me you're gong to start following me around this board and plaguing every single post I interact with. You're wrong. Not a troll at all, and if you had read any of my previous responses to you, you'd see that I ACTUALLY AGREED WITH YOU ON MOST POINTS! Shocking, I know, but now that you've revealed that you just want to win arguments and call anyone who disagrees with you as a "troll" (so cliché), I shouldn't have even attempted a friendly discussion. I resurrected one old thread (that's right, just ONE!) because I saw it as a subject worth talking about. And also, this isn't an old thread at all. This was was the first thread on the first page (other than the pinned ones) when I originally clicked on it. Here's another shock, and something I mentioned in my other post which you ignored, I'm a huge MCU fan. But does that mean I'm gonna worship every single thing they do and think that they're capable of doing no wrong (which is something you probably do)? No. I'm gonna be objective about it. The only two movies I disliked were Iron Man 3 and Homecoming. Also, I find that they haven't done the best with their villains which, as I also already mentioned, seems to be getting better now. So yeah, it may look like I'm another troll that just wants to criticize the MCU (there are many here, but I'm not one of them) but that's just not true. You threw me into that category based on what, two different posts? Hey, if I got the wrong idea about you, it's because all of your recent activity here on the MCU board has been throat-punching the series. You haven't even bothered replying to any positive topics about it. I stand by my statement that most villains in all of cinema are just average-to-forgettable. Hell, most other villains in non-MCU superhero films are average-to-forgettable. Sure, Jack Nicholson's Joker was great, but Penguin and Catwoman were just average, and the Schumacher villains are memorable for all the wrongs reasons. Sure, McKellen's Magneto is great, but Stryker in the second film is as by-the-numbers as they come, same with every other X-Men villain in that film series. Sure, Ledger's The Joker was great because of the performer, but Ra's al Ghul, and The Scarecrow are just average, and Bane was a gross misrepresentation of the character. So yeah, great villains even in other superhero films are the minority, too. If you're going to criticize the MCU for having a lot of average or forgettable villains, then you also have to apply that to the rest of cinema. Fair enough. But in my defense, I never dwell over a franchise I completely dislike. I feel if there's a particular movie series that I'm not a fan of, I usually don't spend a lot of time talking about it. However, when there's a franchise I actually do really enjoy, it's fun to discuss areas that could use improvement. I'm not gonna just talk about what I liked and be blind to all the problems I have with it. It's not as black and white as saying something negative means I don't like it or vice versa. I'm not that mundane about these things. But... you had no way of knowing all that. So again, fair enough. I can see where your confusion came from. I would say you were a little quick to jump to that conclusion but I know where you're coming from, what with all the constant and agreesive MCU bashers on here. If I came across that way I apologize. There may not be a whole lot of newer posts on here with me praising the MCU, but they're definitely here. I've talked about the things I enjoy ad nauseam. Sometimes it's interesting to discuss areas that aren't so perfect, I do it with all my favorite franchises but that doesn't mean I like them any less. But I do still think that it's more integral for superhero movies to portray a good hero and villain dynamic than any other genre. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 19:45:33 GMT
Hey, if I got the wrong idea about you, it's because all of your recent activity here on the MCU board has been throat-punching the series. You haven't even bothered replying to any positive topics about it. I stand by my statement that most villains in all of cinema are just average-to-forgettable. Hell, most other villains in non-MCU superhero films are average-to-forgettable. Sure, Jack Nicholson's Joker was great, but Penguin and Catwoman were just average, and the Schumacher villains are memorable for all the wrongs reasons. Sure, McKellen's Magneto is great, but Stryker in the second film is as by-the-numbers as they come, same with every other X-Men villain in that film series. Sure, Ledger's The Joker was great because of the performer, but Ra's al Ghul, and The Scarecrow are just average, and Bane was a gross misrepresentation of the character. So yeah, great villains even in other superhero films are the minority, too. If you're going to criticize the MCU for having a lot of average or forgettable villains, then you also have to apply that to the rest of cinema. Fair enough. But in my defense, I never dwell over a franchise I completely dislike. I feel if there's a particular movie series that I'm not a fan of, I usually don't spend a lot of time talking about it. However, when there's a franchise I actually do really enjoy, it's fun to discuss areas that could use improvement. I'm not gonna just talk about what I liked and be blind to all the problems I have with it. It's not as black and white as saying something negative means I don't like it or vice versa. I'm not that mundane about these things. But... you had no way of knowing all that. So again, fair enough. I can see where your confusion came from. I would say you were a little quick to jump to that conclusion but I know where you're coming from, what with all the contsba MCU bash on here. There may not be a whole lot of newer posts with me praising the MCU, but they're definitely here. I've talked about the things I enjoy ad nauseam. Sometimes it's interesting to discuss areas that aren't so perfect, I do it with all my favorite franchises but that doesn't mean I like them any less. "Fair enough. But in my defense, I never dwell over a franchise I completely dislike." Then you are a severe minority on IMDbv2. Of course, I'm sure you are painfully aware of that. Alright, fair enough. Sorry I jumped so quickly to the defensive. |
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