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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 7, 2017 20:35:32 GMT
Ok, I'll disagree, but more than that, i'll go ahead and bet that Captain Marvel makes significantly more at the box office, to back it up. Shall we enter a second bet sir? I'll spot you 50 million. I'm not saying it will flop. I'm not even saying people won't be excited about it. But right now most people aren't really familiar with the character. And some don't even know she's getting a movie. That'll change when the trailer drops of course, but right now I wouldn't say she's the talk of the town Oh I didn't say she's the talk of the town. I just said there are more conversation topics going on about the narrative of her movie than Aquaman's. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Dec 7, 2017 20:37:54 GMT
Coming in second has less impact in this context. It makes you look like a follower instead of a leader. Many people won't respond to that as they will feel it's been done before. Human's are always on the quest for the new. I don't think that applies here. Comic movies are very popular. And while Marvel was the first to do the shared universe thing, they certainly weren't the first to make good comic movies. The idea that DC should just not adapt their heroes is a bizarre stance to take. And i I don't think people are on the quest for new, in any area of human endeavor. Everything simply repeats itself. And humans like the familiar. Its our nature. From my own casual observations, when it comes to entertainment, humans seem to get bored easily and they demand new and better all of the time. I don't think DC shouldn't adapt their iconic heroes. I do feel that they need to inject something into their formula that Cleary separates what they are trying to do from what Marvel has done. Working in some Elseworlds material might help make that distinction. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 20:38:06 GMT
I'm not saying it will flop. I'm not even saying people won't be excited about it. But right now most people aren't really familiar with the character. And some don't even know she's getting a movie. That'll change when the trailer drops of course, but right now I wouldn't say she's the talk of the town Oh I didn't say she's the talk of the town. I just said there are more conversation topics going on about the narrative of her movie than Aquaman's. Why not use Black Panther in this argument instead? Not only is it more apt, but you'd also be right. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 20:40:35 GMT
I don't think that applies here. Comic movies are very popular. And while Marvel was the first to do the shared universe thing, they certainly weren't the first to make good comic movies. The idea that DC should just not adapt their heroes is a bizarre stance to take. And i I don't think people are on the quest for new, in any area of human endeavor. Everything simply repeats itself. And humans like the familiar. Its our nature. From my own casual observations, when it comes to entertainment, humans seem to get bored easily and they demand new and better all of the time. I don't think DC shouldn't adapt their iconic heroes. I do feel that they need to inject something into their formula that Cleary separates what they are trying to do from what Marvel has done. Working in some Elseworlds material might help make that distinction. Injecting something new is what they did wrong IMO. They tried to make Superman more serious and juxtapose him against real world situations and grey morality. That was a big mistake. What they should do is be true to their character's roots. They did with WW, and it worked wondrously. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 7, 2017 20:42:56 GMT
Oh I didn't say she's the talk of the town. I just said there are more conversation topics going on about the narrative of her movie than Aquaman's. Why not use Black Panther in this argument instead? Not only is it more apt, but you'd also be right. I think I'm right anyway. I mean the topics that have come up include the skrulls and if they'll play a larger roll, if this is about the kree skrull war, what fury knows since he was involved, how fury loses his eye, jude law as Mar Vell and what roll he plays, where Carol has been since the 90's, how she gets to the present day, and those are all story based topics.
I can't name that much that's been discussed about Aquaman, can you?
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Post by Lord Death Man on Dec 7, 2017 20:43:11 GMT
From my own casual observations, when it comes to entertainment, humans seem to get bored easily and they demand new and better all of the time. I don't think DC shouldn't adapt their iconic heroes. I do feel that they need to inject something into their formula that Cleary separates what they are trying to do from what Marvel has done. Working in some Elseworlds material might help make that distinction. Injecting something new is what they did wrong IMO. They tried to make Superman more serious and juxtapose him against real world situations and grey morality. That was a big mistake. What they should do is be true to their character's roots. They did with WW, and it worked wondrously.Agreed and well stated but, would that work for Batman? I'm tired of seeing that character in the same old situations and settings... I have little interest in The Batman as a project and would rather see more obscure corners of the DCEU get explored. That's just me though, Death Lord's prerogative. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 20:45:26 GMT
Injecting something new is what they did wrong IMO. They tried to make Superman more serious and juxtapose him against real world situations and grey morality. That was a big mistake. What they should do is be true to their character's roots. They did with WW, and it worked wondrously.Agreed and well stated but, would that work for Batman? I'm tired of seeing that character in the same old situations and settings... I have little interest in The Batman as a project and would rather see more obscure corners of the DCEU get explored. That's just me though, Death Lord's prerogative. No. They should let Batman rest because we just had an immensely popular Batman series in TDK trilogy. Relying heavily on him was their second big mistake. Bats should only be used in JL movies. No more solo stuff in this universe. In this I think we agree about people getting tired of the same. Reboots are going to kill the comic movie genre. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 20:48:43 GMT
Why not use Black Panther in this argument instead? Not only is it more apt, but you'd also be right. I think I'm right anyway. I mean the topics that have come up include the skrulls and if they'll play a larger roll, if this is about the kree skrull war, what fury knows since he was involved, how fury loses his eye, jude law as Mar Vell and what roll he plays, where Carol has been since the 90's, how she gets to the present day, and those are all story based topics.
I can't name that much that's been discussed about Aquaman, can you?
I'm a big fan of the MCU and I honestly don't even know what a Skrull is. I'll be more interested in the Carol movie when it gets closer to the date. Isn't it a 2019 movie? Right now I'm more interested in Aquaman because it's closer, and I know more about the character. And I'm not even a big DCEU fan. I only liked WW, and I haven't even seen JL. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Dec 7, 2017 20:53:27 GMT
It doesn’t matter which movie makes more. If AM manages to do well, that would be a good sign moving forward. Well they don't need signs, they need actual progress, and it's going to take them longer if they don't reboot IMO. Rebooting is a sign that they are starting with a new commitment. Staying the course means you're carrying all the bagger you've collected with you. What would be the point of rebooting? People are sick of reboots, and if they did reboot, they’d have to wait around 10 years before making another movie, unless they want to risk oversaturation. That makes no sense. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 7, 2017 20:55:11 GMT
I think I'm right anyway. I mean the topics that have come up include the skrulls and if they'll play a larger roll, if this is about the kree skrull war, what fury knows since he was involved, how fury loses his eye, jude law as Mar Vell and what roll he plays, where Carol has been since the 90's, how she gets to the present day, and those are all story based topics.
I can't name that much that's been discussed about Aquaman, can you?
I'm a big fan of the MCU and I honestly don't even know what a Skrull is. I'll be more interested in the Carol movie when it gets closer to the date. Isn't it a 2019 movie? Right now I'm more interested in Aquaman because it's closer, and I know more about the character. And I'm not even a big DCEU fan. I only liked WW, and I haven't even seen JL. That actually kinda makes me smile. Ok, so you aren't a comic reader then if you don't know what a Skrull is, and that's cool.
But my only point was that there are more topics about the Captain Marvel films, it's elements, and what they mean to the bigger picture.
My take is that Aquaman is a waste of time because that series is done with a capital DONE. It might do alright if it's a good film, but I'd be a little surprised if it got over 600 right now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 22:09:08 GMT
I'm a big fan of the MCU and I honestly don't even know what a Skrull is. I'll be more interested in the Carol movie when it gets closer to the date. Isn't it a 2019 movie? Right now I'm more interested in Aquaman because it's closer, and I know more about the character. And I'm not even a big DCEU fan. I only liked WW, and I haven't even seen JL. That actually kinda makes me smile. Ok, so you aren't a comic reader then if you don't know what a Skrull is, and that's cool.
But my only point was that there are more topics about the Captain Marvel films, it's elements, and what they mean to the bigger picture.
My take is that Aquaman is a waste of time because that series is done with a capital DONE. It might do alright if it's a good film, but I'd be a little surprised if it got over 600 right now.
I don't know how you can be so sure that Aquaman will fail. If it's a good movie and gets good reviews then it will likely be a big hit. The Snyder vision for this universe is basically finished and I think people start to take these movies one at a time. The bad press/reaction of BvS didn't hurt Wonder Woman at all. I don't think JL will hurt Aquaman either, necessarily. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 8, 2017 0:26:58 GMT
That actually kinda makes me smile. Ok, so you aren't a comic reader then if you don't know what a Skrull is, and that's cool.
But my only point was that there are more topics about the Captain Marvel films, it's elements, and what they mean to the bigger picture.
My take is that Aquaman is a waste of time because that series is done with a capital DONE. It might do alright if it's a good film, but I'd be a little surprised if it got over 600 right now.
I don't know how you can be so sure that Aquaman will fail. If it's a good movie and gets good reviews then it will likely be a big hit. The Snyder vision for this universe is basically finished and I think people start to take these movies one at a time. The bad press/reaction of BvS didn't hurt Wonder Woman at all. I don't think JL will hurt Aquaman either, necessarily. I'm not saying it will fail. In fact I said it might do alright, so I'm not even sure why you suggested that I was sure it would fail. JL will definitely have an effect on it, and what I mean by that is some of the audience is gone. You don't lose that much from one film to the next and except that somehow the audience will turn out for a solo film of the next character. WW was an exception because it had things going for it that Aquaman won't. It's not something you should expect to happen again. There won't be a girl power movement for it, so you won't have tons of little girls showing up to see it and women like my wife going multiple times who don't show up for any of these other films. What that all means is that Aquaman's range is lower. WW topped out at 821, and that's great, but there's no way Aquaman gets there unless it is the best movie ever. Realistically if it's pretty good it might get in the 650 range. If it's ok it'll struggle to get 600. I won't guess if it's bad.
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Post by politicidal on Dec 8, 2017 3:12:15 GMT
@lord Death Man, like Zod said, you're not alone. I was excited because for a while it seemed like the DCEU was gonna focus on the stranger elements of the comics' universe.
It's why I was more forgiving of Suicide Squad than most (madmen, monsters, mutates, and magic amok. Deal with it). Also looking forward to Justice League Dark (or at least was-probably dubious now).
We may get a taste of that again with Aqua-Man if he really will fight the Trench.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 18:35:00 GMT
I don't know how you can be so sure that Aquaman will fail. If it's a good movie and gets good reviews then it will likely be a big hit. The Snyder vision for this universe is basically finished and I think people start to take these movies one at a time. The bad press/reaction of BvS didn't hurt Wonder Woman at all. I don't think JL will hurt Aquaman either, necessarily. I'm not saying it will fail. In fact I said it might do alright, so I'm not even sure why you suggested that I was sure it would fail. JL will definitely have an effect on it, and what I mean by that is some of the audience is gone. You don't lose that much from one film to the next and except that somehow the audience will turn out for a solo film of the next character. WW was an exception because it had things going for it that Aquaman won't. It's not something you should expect to happen again. There won't be a girl power movement for it, so you won't have tons of little girls showing up to see it and women like my wife going multiple times who don't show up for any of these other films. What that all means is that Aquaman's range is lower. WW topped out at 821, and that's great, but there's no way Aquaman gets there unless it is the best movie ever. Realistically if it's pretty good it might get in the 650 range. If it's ok it'll struggle to get 600. I won't guess if it's bad.
You do have a point with WW. People certainly won't be as excited to see Aquaman. And there won't be any portion of the population that gets hyped for him like a lot of women did with WW... Unless... Fisherman? ....nah, probably not. ....but maybe. |
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Dec 8, 2017 18:46:13 GMT
Amphibious Americans will be excited for Aquaman. Your a squid, right? You should be excited.
@forceghostackbar
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 18:47:43 GMT
Amphibious Americans will be excited for Aquaman. Your a squid, right? You should be excited. @forceghostackbar I'm very exited! It's about time my people are represented on screen! 🐙 |
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Post by Larcen26 on Dec 8, 2017 19:03:43 GMT
I want to think about this realistically for a minute.
Where is the state of DC and does it matter what Marvel is doing? Well, yes it does matter what Marvel is doing, because these are viewed as comicbook films generally and Marvel has clearly set a bar and an expectation. What DC's real challenge is, is that by getting out ahead of them and taking ownership of the Market, Marvel has put DC in this position where they feel they have to avoid being copycats but also can't be different in such a way that it's unacceptable to the general audience. And that's the problem. The sweet spot is already spoken for and the only room left is for the occasional offbeat one shots.
Further, DC is in a state where we have actually significantly lowered our expectations of them. For example, let's compare Aquaman and Captain Marvel. This is a great example because while Aquaman has long been a punch line, he has now been on screen and is one of those characters people like to use the word iconic for as though it means anything. An yet, it's Captain Marvel that dominates the conversation topics. But why? We aren't looking at Aquaman as some surefire hit but rather wondering if it will turn out alright and find any real traction. And while we may not be sure if Captain Marvel will be a hit, we're all pretty sure it will be a solid effort, it will ultimately perform, and we're already talking about Skrulls and Fury's eye and Jude Law as Mar Vell. Is there any such chatter about Aquaman? And this is all happening at a time when Aquaman has wrapped filming and Captain Marvel hasn't even started.
And then we get to the Fox invasion. If the MCU really does acquire Doom and Surfer and Reed and Galactus, and can put out an entire new series of X-Men films, even if those are done outside the MCU, DC just does not have a response to that. What can they reload with? They're choices are to limp on and try to make something out of a failed franchise, or reboot with the same characters over again. They don't have other characters to start a franchise with. They just don't.
And to anybody who is looking at something like Flashpoint to be a reset button, I'd like to ask why anybody would show up to see Flashpoint if they didn't show up to Justice League. Is there just going to be another Batman series? Superman hasn't worked. Flash is limited does anybody really think Shazam is an answer?
So what happens in the next 10 years? The next 20? Marvel might very well be reloading with a full new roster that DC has no answer for and could keep going strong another 10 years easily even without that reload. And with the strong commitment, dedication to their brand, and willingness to adapt and bring in new directions, there's no reason to think they can't continue.
It's been 10 years already. In another 20 years, where is the DC Brand after living in the basement for over a quarter century? After reading your posts for weeks, I will give you the only answer you clearly want: "They can't do anything. It's a disaster and they should just bail on it since Marvel is so much better in every possible way." |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 8, 2017 21:54:45 GMT
I want to think about this realistically for a minute.
Where is the state of DC and does it matter what Marvel is doing? Well, yes it does matter what Marvel is doing, because these are viewed as comicbook films generally and Marvel has clearly set a bar and an expectation. What DC's real challenge is, is that by getting out ahead of them and taking ownership of the Market, Marvel has put DC in this position where they feel they have to avoid being copycats but also can't be different in such a way that it's unacceptable to the general audience. And that's the problem. The sweet spot is already spoken for and the only room left is for the occasional offbeat one shots.
Further, DC is in a state where we have actually significantly lowered our expectations of them. For example, let's compare Aquaman and Captain Marvel. This is a great example because while Aquaman has long been a punch line, he has now been on screen and is one of those characters people like to use the word iconic for as though it means anything. An yet, it's Captain Marvel that dominates the conversation topics. But why? We aren't looking at Aquaman as some surefire hit but rather wondering if it will turn out alright and find any real traction. And while we may not be sure if Captain Marvel will be a hit, we're all pretty sure it will be a solid effort, it will ultimately perform, and we're already talking about Skrulls and Fury's eye and Jude Law as Mar Vell. Is there any such chatter about Aquaman? And this is all happening at a time when Aquaman has wrapped filming and Captain Marvel hasn't even started.
And then we get to the Fox invasion. If the MCU really does acquire Doom and Surfer and Reed and Galactus, and can put out an entire new series of X-Men films, even if those are done outside the MCU, DC just does not have a response to that. What can they reload with? They're choices are to limp on and try to make something out of a failed franchise, or reboot with the same characters over again. They don't have other characters to start a franchise with. They just don't.
And to anybody who is looking at something like Flashpoint to be a reset button, I'd like to ask why anybody would show up to see Flashpoint if they didn't show up to Justice League. Is there just going to be another Batman series? Superman hasn't worked. Flash is limited does anybody really think Shazam is an answer?
So what happens in the next 10 years? The next 20? Marvel might very well be reloading with a full new roster that DC has no answer for and could keep going strong another 10 years easily even without that reload. And with the strong commitment, dedication to their brand, and willingness to adapt and bring in new directions, there's no reason to think they can't continue.
It's been 10 years already. In another 20 years, where is the DC Brand after living in the basement for over a quarter century? After reading your posts for weeks, I will give you the only answer you clearly want: "They can't do anything. It's a disaster and they should just bail on it since Marvel is so much better in every possible way." I actually enjoy different opinions and people supporting them strongly. Just because I might disagree doesn't mean all I want is for you to agree.
But I do agree that Marvel is better in every way, from characters, to production, to writing, to vision, to care about the product, and that DC has failed so bad they have no real choice but to start over.
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Post by poelzig on Dec 9, 2017 3:57:28 GMT
Aquaman, Shazam!, and WW2. The first two won't matter at all, and the last one won't be enough. I'm not convinced it will even be particularly good. It needs to majorly step up from the first one. Much like the mcu you never alter from your same tired formula, huh? You start a bait thread and when people try to have a conversation your response is "Nope dat won't matter cuz DC sucks derp derp derp" Too bad you didn't stay away like you swore you would. Of course I told you the night you went nuts and got spanked that you would come crawling back and OF COURSE you did exactly that.  By the way what European Starbucks are you posting from tonight? You are so unintentionally hilarious.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2017 11:45:46 GMT
Simple. The Bat Universe. Go with Geoff Johns' plan and give DC fans what they been wanting for years and they will wipe the MCU off the map very easily. I have no doubt about it. If Warner Bros had gone with the Bat Universe from the beginning and used experienced writers like Paul Dini, Gail Simone, Marv Wolfman, Tim Seeley, Peter David, Chuck Dixon, Jimmy Palmiotti, Scott Snyder who have all offered their services to write DC movies in the past and even wrote scripts for movies they would have been beating the MCU now. The good thing for Warner Bros is 'The Batman' is now being said to be separate from the DCEU and this gives them a chance to start anew with new movies of Batman with the Spoiler, Red Robin, Orphan, Batwoman, Clayface, Bluebird, Red Hood, Hawkfire, Batwing etc and Bat Universe movies of Batgirl, Nightwing, Birds of Prey, Teen Titans, Batwoman, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Catwoman, Deathstroke, We Are Robin, Black Canary, the Huntress, Azrael, Harley Quinn, Solomon Grundy etc. I would throw in the Green Arrow with his longtime connection to the Birds of Prey through Black Canary and have Green Arrow and Green Arrow/ Black Canary movies and throw in the Spectre with him based in Gotham. They can keep doing the DCEU movies with Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman and others but keep it separate from the Bat Universe allowing them to have two separate universes at the same time. 
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