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Post by Jedan Archer on Jan 9, 2018 8:14:54 GMT
You may do that, but Yoda did not until now. Of course in real life Yoda might have switched to surname basis during the years between, but this is fiction and thus - without any plausible explanation - seems out of character and like a continuity error. By "glaring" I mean apparent & obvious. But lore-wise this is evidently a superficial issue next to, say, the fact that Force Ghosts can actually "interfere" by beating someone, or by summoning precise lightning strikes - which opens a can of plot worms for the past and future episodes. In fact I have bigger issues with the short Yoda cameo than with Luke's burn-out personality as a whole. "You can't win Darth, If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Come one. We saw what that meant: Life after death and ghost mentoring, but not physical manipulation ("I cannot interfere"). Obi Wan did not steer the X-Wing torpedos into the Death Star shaft. Also, he never engaged Vader, Palpatine or the Empire by hiting them with lightning or whatever. Instead he used Luke as an living instrument to destroy Vader without helping him in the fight.
Only in-story explanation for the power would be that these ghosts became more powerful with time. But having god-mode Jedi Force ghosts plus Mary Sues around will reduce the stakes considerably. This would make me root for the bad guys as hopelessly underpowered underdogs. Not the intended direction I guess.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 9, 2018 13:26:59 GMT
"You can't win Darth, If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Come one. We saw what that meant: Life after death and ghost mentoring, but not physical manipulation ("I cannot interfere"). Obi Wan did not steer the X-Wing torpedos into the Death Star shaft. Also, he never engaged Vader, Palpatine or the Empire by hiting them with lightning or whatever. Instead he used Luke as an living instrument to destroy Vader without helping him in the fight.
Only in-story explanation for the power would be that these ghosts became more powerful with time. But having god-mode Jedi Force ghosts plus Mary Sues around will reduce the stakes considerably. This would make me root for the bad guys as hopelessly underpowered underdogs. Not the intended direction I guess.
That's what she said.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 14:04:37 GMT
"You can't win Darth, If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Come one. We saw what that meant: Life after death and ghost mentoring, but not physical manipulation ("I cannot interfere"). Obi Wan did not steer the X-Wing torpedos into the Death Star shaft. Also, he never engaged Vader, Palpatine or the Empire by hiting them with lightning or whatever. Instead he used Luke as an living instrument to destroy Vader without helping him in the fight.
Only in-story explanation for the power would be that these ghosts became more powerful with time. But having god-mode Jedi Force ghosts plus Mary Sues around will reduce the stakes considerably. This would make me root for the bad guys as hopelessly underpowered underdogs. Not the intended direction I guess.
"I cannot interfere" had everything to do with something that had to do with Luke, but not setting some sort of "Force Ghost Rules". Ben could have appeared to Luke at anytime and done some "Force Mentoring" but he didn't. Ben and Yoda could have appeared or at least voiced encouragement to mentor or support Luke during his confrontation with Vader and the Emperor. Or for that matter, Ben could have observed the "Ghost Rules", and been there for Luke on Bespin. There's a reason for that absense, and it's not "Ghost Rules". Sometimes you have to face your greatest enemies alone, enemies external and internal, confront them and conquer them, and that's the only way you can win. These confrontations dot the Saga. A hero has a choice to make, his own inner darkness to confront, with his mentor unable to help him. In ANH that confrontation wasn't Luke vs. Vader/Death Star, it wasn't even Luke's battle. Getting back to the subject of "Force Ghost Powers". I don't see Yoda lighting up a tree when it comes to Force Ghosts having some direct impact on the physical world as "God Mode", especially within the confines of the First Jedi Temple. Has the fallacy catcher himself fallen into a Slippery Slope Fallacy here? There's statement that has been made twice now in the saga where striking someone down will only "make stronger". I sure hope that aspect of the story is brought to fruition. It took many years for me to have some sort of personal understanding of why or how Ben just vanished vs Vader cutting him in half. Hopefully JJ doesn't throw that whole concept in the trash.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jan 9, 2018 14:42:51 GMT
I have several issues with the movie, but I still enjoyed it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 15:52:23 GMT
Come one. We saw what that meant: Life after death and ghost mentoring, but not physical manipulation ("I cannot interfere"). Obi Wan did not steer the X-Wing torpedos into the Death Star shaft. Also, he never engaged Vader, Palpatine or the Empire by hiting them with lightning or whatever. Instead he used Luke as an living instrument to destroy Vader without helping him in the fight.
Only in-story explanation for the power would be that these ghosts became more powerful with time. But having god-mode Jedi Force ghosts plus Mary Sues around will reduce the stakes considerably. This would make me root for the bad guys as hopelessly underpowered underdogs. Not the intended direction I guess.
"I cannot interfere" had everything to do with something that had to do with Luke, but not setting some sort of "Force Ghost Rules". Ben could have appeared to Luke at anytime and done some "Force Mentoring" but he didn't. Ben and Yoda could have appeared or at least voiced encouragement to mentor or support Luke during his confrontation with Vader and the Emperor. Or for that matter, Ben could have observed the "Ghost Rules", and been there for Luke on Bespin. There's a reason for that absense, and it's not "Ghost Rules". Sometimes you have to face your greatest enemies alone, enemies external and internal, confront them and conquer them, and that's the only way you can win. These confrontations dot the Saga. A hero has a choice to make, his own inner darkness to confront, with his mentor unable to help him. In ANH that confrontation wasn't Luke vs. Vader/Death Star, it wasn't even Luke's battle. Getting back to the subject of "Force Ghost Powers". I don't see Yoda lighting up a tree when it comes to Force Ghosts having some direct impact on the physical world as "God Mode", especially within the confines of the First Jedi Temple. Has the fallacy catcher himself fallen into a Slippery Slope Fallacy here? There's statement that has been made twice now in the saga where striking someone down will only "make stronger". I sure hope that aspect of the story is brought to fruition. It took many years for me to have some sort of personal understanding of why or how Ben just vanished vs Vader cutting him in half. Hopefully JJ doesn't throw that whole concept in the trash. Nah, I agree with Jedan, which is why I brought it up. When the OT came out, it was pretty clear that what Kenobi meant was that he could not interfere physically. It makes zero sense that Yoda and Kenobi would allow Luke to march into certain failure knowing that he was one of two people in the entire galaxy (and furthermore, that he was far more likely to be the one to play the role of this hero type over his sister) who could stop Vader and Palpatine. If Kenobi could have helped, he would have. He could not. Thus, the line of dialogue. Your point about heroes in this saga needing to learn to do things on their own has no bearing on the point at hand. Kenobi doesn't know what the outcome will be when he tells Luke he can't help him. For all he knew, not helping him meant Luke would perish or be turned to the dark side. That's....not a very smart lesson for a teacher to pass off to his student. When the PT provided further explanation into how one becomes a Force ghost and what it means to be one, it opened up the potential to retcon the idea that Force ghosts could interact in the physical world by introducing the idea of training within the astral world, thus, producing a believable route to achieving greater abilities. So I'm totally in agreement with Jedan on that as well. And whereas that kind of retcon writing has been made possible by what we saw in the PT, they took it too far so as to be unbelievable within the confines of established lore in the ST. They could have shown me that Force ghosts can manipulate living beings by interacting with the spiritual components within said living beings and I would have bought it. But Thor Yoda - like Superman Leia - is not a plausible evolution; it's outright rule-breaking.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 16:15:50 GMT
"I cannot interfere" had everything to do with something that had to do with Luke, but not setting some sort of "Force Ghost Rules". Ben could have appeared to Luke at anytime and done some "Force Mentoring" but he didn't. Ben and Yoda could have appeared or at least voiced encouragement to mentor or support Luke during his confrontation with Vader and the Emperor. Or for that matter, Ben could have observed the "Ghost Rules", and been there for Luke on Bespin. There's a reason for that absense, and it's not "Ghost Rules". Sometimes you have to face your greatest enemies alone, enemies external and internal, confront them and conquer them, and that's the only way you can win. These confrontations dot the Saga. A hero has a choice to make, his own inner darkness to confront, with his mentor unable to help him. In ANH that confrontation wasn't Luke vs. Vader/Death Star, it wasn't even Luke's battle. Getting back to the subject of "Force Ghost Powers". I don't see Yoda lighting up a tree when it comes to Force Ghosts having some direct impact on the physical world as "God Mode", especially within the confines of the First Jedi Temple. Has the fallacy catcher himself fallen into a Slippery Slope Fallacy here? There's statement that has been made twice now in the saga where striking someone down will only "make stronger". I sure hope that aspect of the story is brought to fruition. It took many years for me to have some sort of personal understanding of why or how Ben just vanished vs Vader cutting him in half. Hopefully JJ doesn't throw that whole concept in the trash. Nah, I agree with Jedan, which is why I brought it up. When the OT came out, it was pretty clear that what Kenobi meant was that he could not interfere physically. It makes zero sense that Yoda and Kenobi would allow Luke to march into certain failure knowing that he was one of two people in the entire galaxy (and furthermore, that he was far more likely to be the one to play the role of this hero type over his sister) who could stop Vader and Palpatine. If Kenobi could have helped, he would have. He could not. Thus, the line of dialogue. Your point about heroes in this saga needing to learn to do things on their own has no bearing on the point at hand. Kenobi doesn't know what the outcome will be when he tells Luke he can't help him. For all he knew, not helping him meant Luke would perish or be turned to the dark side. That's....not a very smart lesson for a teacher to pass off to his student. When the PT provided further explanation into how one becomes a Force ghost and what it means to be one, it opened up the potential to retcon the idea that Force ghosts could interact in the physical world by introducing the idea of training within the astral world, thus, producing a believable route to achieving greater abilities. So I'm totally in agreement with Jedan on that as well. And whereas that kind of retcon writing has been made possible by what we saw in the PT, they took it too far so as to be unbelievable within the confines of established lore in the ST. They could have shown me that Force ghosts can manipulate living beings by interacting with the spiritual components within said living beings and I would have bought it. But Thor Yoda - like Superman Leia - is not a plausible evolution; it's outright rule-breaking. Exactly what do you think Yoda meant then when he said: If not that within the Force itself, was their real existence and ability? What part of their physical body are you saying gave their consciousness the ability to manipulate the Force? All that lightning you see, the items flying about, the physical manifestations of "The Force" came from the Force not the physical body of the one who manipulates it. These guys are "one with the Force" and they can't physically do anything with the Force? Especially in a place like the First Jedi Temple where the Force is incredibly strong?
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Post by mcufan on Jan 9, 2018 17:41:31 GMT
Nah, I agree with Jedan, which is why I brought it up. When the OT came out, it was pretty clear that what Kenobi meant was that he could not interfere physically. It makes zero sense that Yoda and Kenobi would allow Luke to march into certain failure knowing that he was one of two people in the entire galaxy (and furthermore, that he was far more likely to be the one to play the role of this hero type over his sister) who could stop Vader and Palpatine. If Kenobi could have helped, he would have. He could not. Thus, the line of dialogue. Your point about heroes in this saga needing to learn to do things on their own has no bearing on the point at hand. Kenobi doesn't know what the outcome will be when he tells Luke he can't help him. For all he knew, not helping him meant Luke would perish or be turned to the dark side. That's....not a very smart lesson for a teacher to pass off to his student. When the PT provided further explanation into how one becomes a Force ghost and what it means to be one, it opened up the potential to retcon the idea that Force ghosts could interact in the physical world by introducing the idea of training within the astral world, thus, producing a believable route to achieving greater abilities. So I'm totally in agreement with Jedan on that as well. And whereas that kind of retcon writing has been made possible by what we saw in the PT, they took it too far so as to be unbelievable within the confines of established lore in the ST. They could have shown me that Force ghosts can manipulate living beings by interacting with the spiritual components within said living beings and I would have bought it. But Thor Yoda - like Superman Leia - is not a plausible evolution; it's outright rule-breaking. Exactly what do you think Yoda meant then when he said: If not that within the Force itself, was their real existence and ability? What part of their physical body are you saying gave their consciousness the ability to manipulate the Force? All that lightning you see, the items flying about, the physical manifestations of "The Force" came from the Force not the physical body of the one who manipulates it. These guys are "one with the Force" and they can't physically do anything with the Force? Especially in a place like the First Jedi Temple where the Force is incredibly strong? The simple manifestation of the ghost is a physically interaction. They must at least be able to manipulate light so people can see them, unless, only jedi can see them. Until now they only appeared to force users so, maybe they can manipulate the force through that being, including maipulating light and apparentely lightining.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 9, 2018 17:52:18 GMT
Nah, I agree with Jedan, which is why I brought it up. When the OT came out, it was pretty clear that what Kenobi meant was that he could not interfere physically. It makes zero sense that Yoda and Kenobi would allow Luke to march into certain failure knowing that he was one of two people in the entire galaxy (and furthermore, that he was far more likely to be the one to play the role of this hero type over his sister) who could stop Vader and Palpatine. If Kenobi could have helped, he would have. He could not. Thus, the line of dialogue. Your point about heroes in this saga needing to learn to do things on their own has no bearing on the point at hand. Kenobi doesn't know what the outcome will be when he tells Luke he can't help him. For all he knew, not helping him meant Luke would perish or be turned to the dark side. That's....not a very smart lesson for a teacher to pass off to his student. When the PT provided further explanation into how one becomes a Force ghost and what it means to be one, it opened up the potential to retcon the idea that Force ghosts could interact in the physical world by introducing the idea of training within the astral world, thus, producing a believable route to achieving greater abilities. So I'm totally in agreement with Jedan on that as well. And whereas that kind of retcon writing has been made possible by what we saw in the PT, they took it too far so as to be unbelievable within the confines of established lore in the ST. They could have shown me that Force ghosts can manipulate living beings by interacting with the spiritual components within said living beings and I would have bought it. But Thor Yoda - like Superman Leia - is not a plausible evolution; it's outright rule-breaking. Exactly what do you think Yoda meant then when he said: If not that within the Force itself, was their real existence and ability? What part of their physical body are you saying gave their consciousness the ability to manipulate the Force? All that lightning you see, the items flying about, the physical manifestations of "The Force" came from the Force not the physical body of the one who manipulates it. These guys are "one with the Force" and they can't physically do anything with the Force? Especially in a place like the First Jedi Temple where the Force is incredibly strong? Also from Legends: "A manifested spirit could wield Force powers, although not all of them." So this force wielding force spirit is nothing new, just going back to the EU and put it in Canon. PS: I think wintersuicide blocked me so you will have to explain what i said to him, if you wish
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Post by Larcen26 on Jan 9, 2018 18:25:50 GMT
Just putting in my 2 cents. And I will not be continuing in the debate since I find it pedantic and unimportant to the narrative...
But I always took "I cannot interfere" as less an explanation of his powers and more a "I disagree with what you are doing, and cannot be a party to it."
He was able to "interfere" with Luke by inspiring him to not use the targeting computer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 19:25:21 GMT
Just putting in my 2 cents. And I will not be continuing in the debate since I find it pedantic and unimportant to the narrative... But I always took "I cannot interfere" as less an explanation of his powers and more a "I disagree with what you are doing, and cannot be a party to it." He was able to "interfere" with Luke by inspiring him to not use the targeting computer. Of course it's pedantic! Isn't that part of the fun of being a Star Wars fan, seeing how far you can dissect every detail until the story is revealed to be exactly what it is, a story?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 19:25:57 GMT
Exactly what do you think Yoda meant then when he said: If not that within the Force itself, was their real existence and ability? Their astral or spiritual selves are their better or "true" nature, but the flesh is also real and a separate nature. The flesh interacting with midi-chlorians, which, in turn, interact with the Force is what allowed them to manipulate the Force. Not exactly. See above. Of course I agree they can do things with the Force. Them manifesting themselves as ghosts is an example in and of itself of them doing just that. And, yes, especially in areas of the galaxy that are stronger with the Force, which is possibly why Kenobi is able to manifest on Dagobah in the first place. What I'm saying is that up until TLJ, the ghosts seemed limited to being able to project images of themselves. At no point do they show any ability to physically touch anything, let alone control weather. On top of that, Kenobi says he "cannot" interfere. He doesn't say, "I shouldn't," or "it's in your long term best interest if I don't" or "I don't want to." He says "can't."
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Post by Larcen26 on Jan 9, 2018 19:50:42 GMT
Just putting in my 2 cents. And I will not be continuing in the debate since I find it pedantic and unimportant to the narrative... But I always took "I cannot interfere" as less an explanation of his powers and more a "I disagree with what you are doing, and cannot be a party to it." He was able to "interfere" with Luke by inspiring him to not use the targeting computer. Of course it's pedantic! Isn't that part of the fun of being a Star Wars fan, seeing how far you can dissect every detail until the story is revealed to be exactly what it is, a story? Not if it takes an excellent film like The Last Jedi and causes you to hate it because it doesn't match up with your own pedantry...
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Post by mcufan on Jan 9, 2018 19:52:16 GMT
Exactly what do you think Yoda meant then when he said: If not that within the Force itself, was their real existence and ability? Their astral or spiritual selves are their better or "true" nature, but the flesh is also real and a separate nature. The flesh interacting with midi-chlorians, which, in turn, interact with the Force is what allowed them to manipulate the Force. Not exactly. See above. Of course I agree they can do things with the Force. Them manifesting themselves as ghosts is an example in and of itself of them doing just that. And, yes, especially in areas of the galaxy that are stronger with the Force, which is possibly why Kenobi is able to manifest on Dagobah in the first place. What I'm saying is that up until TLJ, the ghosts seemed limited to being able to project images of themselves. At no point do they show any ability to physically touch anything, let alone control weather. On top of that, Kenobi says he "cannot" interfere. He doesn't say, "I shouldn't," or "it's in your long term best interest if I don't" or "I don't want to." He says "can't." Just a part of the EU that made it to Canon (again).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 20:22:58 GMT
Exactly what do you think Yoda meant then when he said: If not that within the Force itself, was their real existence and ability? Their astral or spiritual selves are their better or "true" nature, but the flesh is also real and a separate nature. The flesh interacting with midi-chlorians, which, in turn, interact with the Force is what allowed them to manipulate the Force. Not exactly. See above. Of course I agree they can do things with the Force. Them manifesting themselves as ghosts is an example in and of itself of them doing just that. And, yes, especially in areas of the galaxy that are stronger with the Force, which is possibly why Kenobi is able to manifest on Dagobah in the first place. What I'm saying is that up until TLJ, the ghosts seemed limited to being able to project images of themselves. At no point do they show any ability to physically touch anything, let alone control weather. On top of that, Kenobi says he "cannot" interfere. He doesn't say, "I shouldn't," or "it's in your long term best interest if I don't" or "I don't want to." He says "can't." When episode 9 continues to validate something I've always seen in the Force, building so perfectly when you watch and consider the films in episodic order, I'll still have a clear complete understanding of the narrative. The arrogance of man as a "master" of the Force to an ally that will aid you even after "death" that you are an eternal part of, if only you "Let go of your conscious self". When I can get the text of Luke's entire speech to Rey, I'm going to so enjoy it. In the film, it was pure gold, but I really need that word for word. I'm sure you will see "Disney Magic" in all this, and you can jump off the story if you wish. It may be good if you wish to hold on to your view of the narrative as something that goes episodes 4,5,6,1,2,3. Because that view only really works that way, at least for me. It kills the important arcs of Ben and Yoda and their realization that there was something much greater to learn, and that's pretty important to a whole lot of fans. But I contend that the Force is far greater than the hubris of man, and, as an ally with you, its will allowing, gives "Power that is insignificant to the ability to destroy an entire planet.", and "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful". I really like my view on this subject, if you can't tell, and it builds from episode 1-3, of a falling group of men who sought to control the Force who lost their vision through their own fear, pride and arrogance of their own place in the story. (It even makes that little scene in that cartoon with Yoda work that we talked about make sense) You can even build through Chirrut Imwe's "I am one with the Force and the Force is with me" as someone who realizes he can have faith in the Force even if he can't manipulate it directly in Rogue One. On through 4,5,6,7,8 with something that you "Let go" to acquire, that you allied with, granted immortality and a place within it's own power. Of course 7 and 8 aren't as eloquent as 4-6, but you have to take the talent into consideration of 7 and 8 vs. George Lucas et al in their primes. Unless JJ is an idiot, and I don't know that for one way or another yet sadly. Episode 9 will continue to explore just where Episode 8 left off. And will continue to reflect George Lucas' view on our understanding of the universe and our role in it: I believe Mr. Lucas infused this belief in his stories in the Star Wars saga, and for that matter in the Indiana Jones stories. And that's why I believe that Force Ghosts can and probably will show themselves as a powerful extension of the collective consciousness of the Force, (Heck, there's at least 4 consciousnesses rattling around one with it now by my count) but constrained by the collective will of the Force, that there are some things that the Force won't allow, like giving Luke the chance the make his choice and become what he could be. And balance, as always, will keep anyone from getting too powerful, so Jedan, you don't fret about "God mode".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 20:40:40 GMT
When episode 9 continues to validate something I've always seen in the Force, building so perfectly when you watch and consider the films in episodic order, I'll still have a clear complete understanding of the narrative. The arrogance of man as a "master" of the Force to an ally that will aid you even after "death" that you are an eternal part of, if only you "Let go of your conscious self". When I can get the text of Luke's entire speech to Rey, I'm going to so enjoy it. In the film, it was pure gold, but I really need that word for word. I'm sure you will see "Disney Magic" in all this, and you can jump off the story if you wish. It may be good if you wish to hold on to your view of the narrative as something that goes episodes 4,5,6,1,2,3. Because that view only really works that way, at least for me. It kills the important arcs of Ben and Yoda and their realization that there was something much greater to learn, and that's pretty important to a whole lot of fans. But I contend that the Force is far greater than the hubris of man, and, as an ally with you, its will allowing, gives "Power that is insignificant to the ability to destroy an entire planet.", and "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful". I really like my view on this subject, if you can't tell, and it builds from episode 1-3, of a falling group of men who sought to control the Force who lost their vision through their own fear, pride and arrogance of their own place in the story. (It even makes that little scene in that cartoon with Yoda work that we talked about make sense) You can even build through Chirrut Imwe's "I am one with the Force and the Force is with me" as someone who realizes he can have faith in the Force even if he can't manipulate it directly in Rogue One. On through 4,5,6,7,8 with something that you "Let go" to acquire, that you allied with, granted immortality and a place within it's own power. Of course 7 and 8 aren't as eloquent as 4-6, but you have to take the talent into consideration of 7 and 8 vs. George Lucas et al in their primes. Unless JJ is an idiot, and I don't know that for one way or another yet sadly. Episode 9 will continue to explore just where Episode 8 left off. And will continue to reflect George Lucas' view on our understanding of the universe and our role in it: I believe Mr. Lucas infused this belief in his stories in the Star Wars saga, and for that matter in the Indiana Jones stories. And that's why I believe that Force Ghosts can and probably will show themselves as a powerful extension of the collective consciousness of the Force, (Heck, there's at least 4 consciousnesses rattling around one with it now by my count) but constrained by the collective will of the Force, that there are some things that the Force won't allow, like giving Luke the chance the make his choice and become what he could be. And balance, as always, will keep anyone from getting too powerful, so Jedan, you don't fret about "God mode". Speaking of your preferred narrative that you love so dearly, let's go back to that idea that it's not whether you fight, but why you fight that makes all the difference. Based on this virtue, it's wrong of me to wish that Ep. IX careens far off this path you've ascribed to it - so far as to make it seem unrecognizable - so that you will feel the pain I felt after viewing Ep. VIII. Right? So instead, I should I hope that it careens far off your prognosticated path because I love a different path. Right?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 20:56:05 GMT
When episode 9 continues to validate something I've always seen in the Force, building so perfectly when you watch and consider the films in episodic order, I'll still have a clear complete understanding of the narrative. The arrogance of man as a "master" of the Force to an ally that will aid you even after "death" that you are an eternal part of, if only you "Let go of your conscious self". When I can get the text of Luke's entire speech to Rey, I'm going to so enjoy it. In the film, it was pure gold, but I really need that word for word. I'm sure you will see "Disney Magic" in all this, and you can jump off the story if you wish. It may be good if you wish to hold on to your view of the narrative as something that goes episodes 4,5,6,1,2,3. Because that view only really works that way, at least for me. It kills the important arcs of Ben and Yoda and their realization that there was something much greater to learn, and that's pretty important to a whole lot of fans. But I contend that the Force is far greater than the hubris of man, and, as an ally with you, its will allowing, gives "Power that is insignificant to the ability to destroy an entire planet.", and "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful". I really like my view on this subject, if you can't tell, and it builds from episode 1-3, of a falling group of men who sought to control the Force who lost their vision through their own fear, pride and arrogance of their own place in the story. (It even makes that little scene in that cartoon with Yoda work that we talked about make sense) You can even build through Chirrut Imwe's "I am one with the Force and the Force is with me" as someone who realizes he can have faith in the Force even if he can't manipulate it directly in Rogue One. On through 4,5,6,7,8 with something that you "Let go" to acquire, that you allied with, granted immortality and a place within it's own power. Of course 7 and 8 aren't as eloquent as 4-6, but you have to take the talent into consideration of 7 and 8 vs. George Lucas et al in their primes. Unless JJ is an idiot, and I don't know that for one way or another yet sadly. Episode 9 will continue to explore just where Episode 8 left off. And will continue to reflect George Lucas' view on our understanding of the universe and our role in it: I believe Mr. Lucas infused this belief in his stories in the Star Wars saga, and for that matter in the Indiana Jones stories. And that's why I believe that Force Ghosts can and probably will show themselves as a powerful extension of the collective consciousness of the Force, (Heck, there's at least 4 consciousnesses rattling around one with it now by my count) but constrained by the collective will of the Force, that there are some things that the Force won't allow, like giving Luke the chance the make his choice and become what he could be. And balance, as always, will keep anyone from getting too powerful, so Jedan, you don't fret about "God mode". Speaking of your preferred narrative that you love so dearly, let's go back to that idea that it's not whether you fight, but why you fight that makes all the difference. Based on this virtue, it's wrong of me to wish that Ep. IX careens far off this path you've ascribed to it - so far as to make it seem unrecognizable - so that you will feel the pain I felt after viewing Ep. VIII. Right? So instead, I should I hope that it careens far off your prognosticated path because I love a different path. Right? No problem with that. That works until it doesn't! I'm just hoping I get a prize at the end if JJ doesn't screw it up! Yes, if JJ trashes "fighting for what is right" and replaces it with some sort of "might makes right" along with someone getting an "ultimate power!!!!!" reward from the "non-dark" side of the Force, I'll feel a lot of that pain. He could really knock me for a loop and have that one armed 110 year old Mace Windu come back with his Nick Fury eyepatch still on and lop off Kylo's head to end it all, restoring balance for those who see it as a 456123 story! If I'm wrong, I'll just have to come back and lament about how "JJ ruined my childhood and just retconned 40 years of my understanding of what Star Wars is all about!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 21:03:28 GMT
Speaking of your preferred narrative that you love so dearly, let's go back to that idea that it's not whether you fight, but why you fight that makes all the difference. Based on this virtue, it's wrong of me to wish that Ep. IX careens far off this path you've ascribed to it - so far as to make it seem unrecognizable - so that you will feel the pain I felt after viewing Ep. VIII. Right? So instead, I should I hope that it careens far off your prognosticated path because I love a different path. Right? No problem with that. That works until it doesn't! I'm just hoping I get a prize at the end if JJ doesn't screw it up! Since Disney now owns Marvel, I think it's quite possible you could earn yourself an official No-Prize. Excelsior!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 21:10:42 GMT
No problem with that. That works until it doesn't! I'm just hoping I get a prize at the end if JJ doesn't screw it up! Since Disney now owns Marvel, I think it's quite possible you could earn yourself an official No-Prize. Excelsior! Stan, Is that you?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 21:13:54 GMT
Since Disney now owns Marvel, I think it's quite possible you could earn yourself an official No-Prize. Excelsior! Stan, Is that you? Nope! It's Jack Kirby!
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 10, 2018 17:37:44 GMT
You consider THAT a glaring flaw/inconsistency? Sometimes he calls him by his first name and sometimes his last? I do that with my friends and coworkers all the time. You may do that, but Yoda did not until now. Of course in real life Yoda might have switched to surname basis during the years between, but this is fiction and thus - without any plausible explanation - seems out of character and like a continuity error. You're right. If you go back to the PT, Yoda always addresses the other Jedi by "Master" and sometimes will then call them by their first name. i.e. He refers to Qui-Gon Jinn as "Master Qui-Gon" and Obi-Wan as "Master Obi-Wan" at different points. Yoda will also refer to Jedi masters by their last name but always with the title too - i.e. "Master Kenobi" or "Master Windu". At no point in the other movies does he just drop the respect of "Master" from how he addresses other Jedi Masters.
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