Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:02:14 GMT
Now, to get to a question I actually don't have an answer to is the question of why angels and humans were created with free will in the first place. Well, one could say that if the ultimate goal of creation is for God's created beings to enter into a genuinely loving relationship with him, then free will is necessary. We can program robots to do exactly what we want them to do, but we wouldn't call them loving. We are a bunch of pre-programmed robots (you cannot possibly choose which thoughts you're going to think before thinking them and have absolutely no way of defending your conception of free will), and if God exists, then he is the author of the flawed programming.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:02:58 GMT
Besides, cupcakes, the only person avoiding anything is you. I've already discussed the idea of where things like a "lust for wealth" comes from on this very board. Not my fault if you didn't read it.
|
|
|
Post by cupcakes on Jan 24, 2018 23:03:04 GMT
tpfkar What's your thing? Making strange people fall in love with you? That's always the next step when you guys completely crumple. ![(Apple) Smiling Face With Open Mouth & Closed Eyes](https://s1.postimg.org/1aeeq0jfe7/sfwomatce.a.png) The things that roll around in you guys' heads. ![The Scream](https://s1.postimg.org/3b7cpovb7j/screamingfear.png) If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:05:13 GMT
tpfkar What's your thing? Making strange people fall in love with you? That's always the next step when you guys completely crumple. ![(Apple) Smiling Face With Open Mouth & Closed Eyes](https://s1.postimg.org/1aeeq0jfe7/sfwomatce.a.png) The things that roll around in you guys' heads. ![The Scream](https://s1.postimg.org/3b7cpovb7j/screamingfear.png) If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.My next step is falling in love with you? You're going to have to tuck your shirt in first.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:06:04 GMT
Well, one could say that if the ultimate goal of creation is for God's created beings to enter into a genuinely loving relationship with him, then free will is necessary. We can program robots to do exactly what we want them to do, but we wouldn't call them loving. We are a bunch of pre-programmed robots (you cannot possibly choose which thoughts you're going to think before thinking them and have absolutely no way of defending your conception of free will), and if God exists, then he is the author of the flawed programming. We're all aware of your deterministic worldview. Some of us just aren't convinced by your arguments. Sorry.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:08:23 GMT
We are a bunch of pre-programmed robots (you cannot possibly choose which thoughts you're going to think before thinking them and have absolutely no way of defending your conception of free will), and if God exists, then he is the author of the flawed programming. We're all aware of your deterministic worldview. Some of us just aren't convinced by your arguments. Sorry. You're not convinced because you have a vested interest in not being convinced. You need to feel that you're so special that the matter contained in your cranium is the only substance that isn't subject to the laws of physics, or even any kind of logic. Instead of advancing your theory of how free will actually works, you just deny that human decisions are caused just like any other event in the universe.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:10:17 GMT
We're all aware of your deterministic worldview. Some of us just aren't convinced by your arguments. Sorry. You're not convinced because you have a vested interest in not being convinced. You need to feel that you're so special that the matter contained in your cranium is the only substance that isn't subject to the laws of physics, or even any kind of logic. Instead of advancing your theory of how free will actually works, you just deny that human decisions are caused just like any other event in the universe. I'm not convinced because your arguments are old and tired and have been addressed by philosophers who are much smarter than you are. To be clear, I do not care what you believe. I'm just telling you that you're not exactly breaking new ground here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:15:54 GMT
You're not convinced because you have a vested interest in not being convinced. You need to feel that you're so special that the matter contained in your cranium is the only substance that isn't subject to the laws of physics, or even any kind of logic. Instead of advancing your theory of how free will actually works, you just deny that human decisions are caused just like any other event in the universe. I'm not convinced because your arguments are old and tired and have been addressed by philosophers who are much smarter than you are. To be clear, I do not care what you believe. I'm just telling you that you're not exactly breaking new ground here. I think that you've likely been misunderstanding the philosophy that you've been reading. The secular philosophers who assert that free will exists essentially agree with my views, it's just that they want to label deterministic choice making as 'free will'. Which philosophers are you referencing in particular, so I may bone up on the best arguments in favour of free will (and that is to say the libertarian paradigm that act as a foundation for your religious faith, not compatibilist free will)?
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Jan 24, 2018 23:17:15 GMT
Well, one could say that if the ultimate goal of creation is for God's created beings to enter into a genuinely loving relationship with him, then free will is necessary. We can program robots to do exactly what we want them to do, but we wouldn't call them loving. We are a bunch of pre-programmed robots (you cannot possibly choose which thoughts you're going to think before thinking them and have absolutely no way of defending your conception of free will), and if God exists, then he is the author of the flawed programming. We cannot choose what we see, that is except by turning our heads, closing our eyes or not, and so forth. We cannot choose what we hear, that is except by blocking our ears or not. We cannot choose what we sense from any of the physical senses in much the same way. Yes, we can however choose what we think. An exercise I use to get some indication how "subconscious" a thought I have might be is to decide on a set of images and focus my attention on them in some particular order then repeat the list until some image not on it appears. Because my "conscious" mind is "busy" focusing on the list it might be access to or from the subconscious that triggers the image not on the list. I don't expect you to accept this as "proof" that you're wrong. I do however think it is rather more likely than what you seem to believe is so certain. As I said before on this board, if you can't predict human behavior you shouldn't claim it is predictable.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:17:34 GMT
I'm not convinced because your arguments are old and tired and have been addressed by philosophers who are much smarter than you are. To be clear, I do not care what you believe. I'm just telling you that you're not exactly breaking new ground here. I think that you've likely been misunderstanding the philosophy that you've been reading. The secular philosophers who assert that free will exists essentially agree with my views, it's just that they want to label deterministic choice making as 'free will'. Which philosophers are you referencing in particular, so I may bone up on the best arguments in favour of free will (and that is to say the libertarian paradigm that act as a foundation for your religious faith, not compatibilist free will)? No, I very much understand what I'm reading. I just don't agree with your conclusions.
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 24, 2018 23:18:23 GMT
tpfkar [img alt="" src="https://ferrelljenkins.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/babylon-ishtar-gate_berlin_fjenkins081614_5790t.jpg"] ![](https://s26.postimg.org/3tzwmtyu1/wave3.gif) ![(Apple) Grinning Face With Smiling Eyes](https://s31.postimg.org/wtnckqf7v/agrinface.png) Right, any babble to slink away from the the stink on the story. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FgDles4xq8
|
|
|
Post by cupcakes on Jan 24, 2018 23:19:55 GMT
tpfkar That's always the next step when you guys completely crumple. ![(Apple) Smiling Face With Open Mouth & Closed Eyes](https://s1.postimg.org/1aeeq0jfe7/sfwomatce.a.png) The things that roll around in you guys' heads. ![The Scream](https://s1.postimg.org/3b7cpovb7j/screamingfear.png) If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.My next step is falling in love with you? You're going to have to tuck your shirt in first. You guys do invariably turn out to be freaks. ![trumpshrug](https://s7.postimg.org/jyv2idyjf/shrugforthedoofus.png) You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:20:34 GMT
I think that you've likely been misunderstanding the philosophy that you've been reading. The secular philosophers who assert that free will exists essentially agree with my views, it's just that they want to label deterministic choice making as 'free will'. Which philosophers are you referencing in particular, so I may bone up on the best arguments in favour of free will (and that is to say the libertarian paradigm that act as a foundation for your religious faith, not compatibilist free will)? No, I very much understand what I'm reading. I just don't agree with your conclusions. So would you mind telling me what you've been reading? Just the names of the philosophers will suffice; I don't mind running it through a search engine myself.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:27:43 GMT
tpfkar ![(Apple) Grinning Face With Smiling Eyes](https://s31.postimg.org/wtnckqf7v/agrinface.png) Right, any babble to slink away from the the stink on the story. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FgDles4xq8Ha, I almost linked to this, but figured three "slinky, stinky, slithering" responses to cupcakes in a row might start to insult him. But one good turn deserves another I always say:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:29:15 GMT
tpfkar My next step is falling in love with you? You're going to have to tuck your shirt in first. You guys do invariably turn out to be freaks. ![trumpshrug](https://s7.postimg.org/jyv2idyjf/shrugforthedoofus.png) You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.I went looking for a definitive answer as to who "you guys" are in your previous posts, but it slinked away from me. I have no idea still who you are referring to.
|
|
|
Post by cupcakes on Jan 24, 2018 23:36:34 GMT
tpfkar Well, one could say that if the ultimate goal of creation is for God's created beings to enter into a genuinely loving relationship with him, then free will is necessary. We can program robots to do exactly what we want them to do, but we wouldn't call them loving. We are a bunch of pre-programmed robots (you cannot possibly choose which thoughts you're going to think before thinking them and have absolutely no way of defending your conception of free will), and if God exists, then he is the author of the flawed programming. I don't doubt that you beep. ![trumpshrug](https://s7.postimg.org/jyv2idyjf/shrugforthedoofus.png) And nobody without an agenda ever "thought" the infinitely circular nonsense of "choose which thoughts you're going to think before thinking them" were any part of free will, regardless of your rank "incredulity" and empty assertions. If God were to exist as posited, he would be the author of every flaw and everything else. Neuroscience and Free Will Are Rethinking Their Divorce
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:40:55 GMT
tpfkar We are a bunch of pre-programmed robots (you cannot possibly choose which thoughts you're going to think before thinking them and have absolutely no way of defending your conception of free will), and if God exists, then he is the author of the flawed programming. I don't doubt that you beep. ![trumpshrug](https://s7.postimg.org/jyv2idyjf/shrugforthedoofus.png) And nobody without an agenda ever "thought" the infinitely circular nonsense of "choose which thoughts you're going to think before thinking them" were any part of free will, regardless of your rank "incredulity" and empty assertions. If God were to exist as posited, he would be the author of every flaw and everything else. Neuroscience and Free Will Are Rethinking Their DivorceAs far as concerns the poster to whom I was replying, it would be necessary in his religious beliefs that he were fully responsible over whether or not to accept Christ's salvation, and the decision was fully attributable to his 'free will' and not to any causal factors. Likewise, anyone who sinned would need to be acting only in accordance with their unalloyed 'free will', meaning 0% of it would be attributable to any causal factor. So no definition of free will other than what I've given would fit the bill. Any other combination would mean that God was fallible when creating the world, and therefore would nullify everything that he believes God to be.
|
|
|
Post by cupcakes on Jan 24, 2018 23:41:50 GMT
tpfkar You guys do invariably turn out to be freaks. ![trumpshrug](https://s7.postimg.org/jyv2idyjf/shrugforthedoofus.png) You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.I went looking for a definitive answer as to who "you guys" are in your previous posts, but it slinked away from me. I have no idea still who you are referring to. I know you guys have trouble reading when it's inconvenient too. What happened to your degenerate babble diversions though? And I will kill her children with pestilence and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:47:05 GMT
tpfkar I went looking for a definitive answer as to who "you guys" are in your previous posts, but it slinked away from me. I have no idea still who you are referring to. I know you guys have trouble reading when it's inconvenient too. What happened to your degenerate babble diversions though? And I will kill her children with pestilence and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.<shrugs shoulders> Who are "you guys?" <shrugs shoulders> I can keep going with the "Babble On" bit if you like, but I just assumed that was getting boring. Speaking of boring, your repetition of the same two or three phrases is <yawn> making me sleepy. I have some homework for you. Here's a list of synonyms for the word "babble." Mix it up so I can start a new bit, will you? ![](https://hyperallergic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Photo-One-Meaningless-720x538.jpg)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 23:48:18 GMT
tpfkar I know you guys have trouble reading when it's inconvenient too. What happened to your degenerate babble diversions though? And I will kill her children with pestilence and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.<shrugs shoulders> Who are "you guys?" <shrugs shoulders> I can keep going with the "Babble On" bit if you like, but I just assumed that was getting boring. Speaking of boring, your repetition of the same two or three phrases is <yawn> making me sleepy. I have some homework for you. Here's a list of synonyms for the word "babble." Mix it up so I can start a new bit, will you? ![](https://hyperallergic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Photo-One-Meaningless-720x538.jpg) I would imagine you will gravitate toward fatuous. That's a triple entendre if you're keeping score.
|
|