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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 11, 2018 20:25:53 GMT
So it sounds like you can appreciate that Civil War managed to make them both have validity to their positions. I can and I don’t hate Civil War but it could have been much better. Also I put some blame on Whedon with his creation of Scarlett Witch and Vision. The Russos inherited that and had to work with it. They did well with WS but not with CW. Winter Soldier is pretty sick thus far. I'm sort of wondering, like, where the hell the other Avengers are and why Cap or Widow don't seek them out instead of Falcon, especially since they evidently didn't even know he was a super-person or former asset or whatever, but we'll see what happens. If I were them, though, I would be crashing at Tony's place, where it would take an actual army to come get me. Then again, Hydra appears to have an actual army onhand. So let's see what happens in the last forty-five minutes or so... |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 20:26:31 GMT
So it sounds like you can appreciate that Civil War managed to make them both have validity to their positions. I can and I don’t hate Civil War but it could have been much better. Also I put some blame on Whedon with his creation of Scarlett Witch and Vision. The Russos inherited that and had to work with it. They did well with WS but not with CW. I thought Scarlet Witch and Vision were better done than most romances in CBMs, to be honest. I especially liked that bit where he told her about wanting to understand things so he wouldn't fear them anymore. What did you not like about CW? |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 20:29:15 GMT
I can and I don’t hate Civil War but it could have been much better. Also I put some blame on Whedon with his creation of Scarlett Witch and Vision. The Russos inherited that and had to work with it. They did well with WS but not with CW. Winter Soldier is pretty sick thus far. I'm sort of wondering, like, where the hell the other Avengers are and why Cap or Widow don't seek them out instead of Falcon, especially since they evidently didn't even know he was a super-person or former asset or whatever, but we'll see what happens. If I were them, though, I would be crashing at Tony's place, where it would take an actual army to come get me. Then again, Hydra appears to have an actual army onhand. So let's see what happens in the last forty-five minutes or so... Hydra was observing them and would've made sure to keep them from communicating with anyone. Plus the whole story happens only over a day or two. Hawkeye was supposed to show up but they couldn't get Renner in time. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2018 20:36:29 GMT
I can and I don’t hate Civil War but it could have been much better. Also I put some blame on Whedon with his creation of Scarlett Witch and Vision. The Russos inherited that and had to work with it. They did well with WS but not with CW. I thought Scarlet Witch and Vision were better done than most romances in CBMs, to be honest. I especially liked that bit where he told her about wanting to understand things so he wouldn't fear them anymore. What did you not like about CW? Many things. In general just not reaching its potential. Tony and Cap arguing about the very nature of their existence could have been INTENSE. Also it was just too inconsequential. I wanted more than War Machine being paralysed (but on his way to recovery already) with so much at stake. Had Cap died it would have entered legend status. Opening up with that contrived Stark family thing- is Stark that much of an attention whore to recreate the last time he saw his parents and then show a class of kids? NO. But it looks kewl to so let’s do it 🙄. I hate Bettany’s Vision. So weak. You either go omnipotent or profoundly humane like Dr Manhattan. But you don’t make him a bland shit because wouldn’t it be cool to make JARVIS the Vision 🙄? I would have overhauled the character but no he was still a dipshit. Then the convoluted plan by Strucker and BP was underwhelming and it was not what it could have been. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 11, 2018 20:36:32 GMT
Winter Soldier is pretty sick thus far. I'm sort of wondering, like, where the hell the other Avengers are and why Cap or Widow don't seek them out instead of Falcon, especially since they evidently didn't even know he was a super-person or former asset or whatever, but we'll see what happens. If I were them, though, I would be crashing at Tony's place, where it would take an actual army to come get me. Then again, Hydra appears to have an actual army onhand. So let's see what happens in the last forty-five minutes or so... Hydra was observing them and would've made sure to keep them from communicating with anyone. Plus the whole story happens only over a day or two. Hawkeye was supposed to show up but they couldn't get Renner in time. I dunno if I believe that Natasha wouldn't be able to evade them. Cap, fine, because he appears to have all the technical savvy of a rock. But let's see how it plays out. There've been good action beats so far. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2018 20:38:30 GMT
Hydra was observing them and would've made sure to keep them from communicating with anyone. Plus the whole story happens only over a day or two. Hawkeye was supposed to show up but they couldn't get Renner in time. I dunno if I believe that Natasha wouldn't be able to evade them. Cap, fine, because he appears to have all the technical savvy of a rock. But let's see how it plays out. There've been good action beats so far. Dude you’ve never seen Winter Soldier? It rocks, man. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 20:42:32 GMT
I thought Scarlet Witch and Vision were better done than most romances in CBMs, to be honest. I especially liked that bit where he told her about wanting to understand things so he wouldn't fear them anymore. What did you not like about CW? Many things. In general just not reaching its potential. Tony and Cap arguing about the very nature of their existence could have been INTENSE. Also it was just too inconsequential. I wanted more than War Machine being paralysed (but on his way to recovery already) with so much at stake. Had Cap died it would have entered legend status. Opening up with that contrived Stark family thing- is Stark that much of an attention whore to recreate the last time he saw his parents and then show a class of kids? NO. But it looks kewl to so let’s do it 🙄. I hate Bettany’s Vision. So weak. You either go omnipotent or profoundly humane like Dr Manhattan. But you don’t make him a bland shit because wouldn’t it be cool to make JARVIS the Vision? I would have overhauled the character but no he was still a dipshit. Then the convoluted plan by Strucker and BO was underwhelming and it was not what it could have been. The Russos said that if they killed anyone, we'd automatically sympathize more with the side who lost someone. Plus, as Infinity War is THE main storyline they need everyone around for that. That's why they weren't going to kill Cap or anyone. He was demonstrating how his device was meant to help treat people with emotional problems due to bad memories. He chose the one they would've all probably known about from his public history. And it set up the ending well too. Okay, you just dislike the character. I get that. I'm guessing you mean ZEMO's plan, not Struckers'. Frankly I don't see how anyone could call his plans convoluted and be fine with Joker in TDK. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2018 20:46:11 GMT
Many things. In general just not reaching its potential. Tony and Cap arguing about the very nature of their existence could have been INTENSE. Also it was just too inconsequential. I wanted more than War Machine being paralysed (but on his way to recovery already) with so much at stake. Had Cap died it would have entered legend status. Opening up with that contrived Stark family thing- is Stark that much of an attention whore to recreate the last time he saw his parents and then show a class of kids? NO. But it looks kewl to so let’s do it 🙄. I hate Bettany’s Vision. So weak. You either go omnipotent or profoundly humane like Dr Manhattan. But you don’t make him a bland shit because wouldn’t it be cool to make JARVIS the Vision? I would have overhauled the character but no he was still a dipshit. Then the convoluted plan by Strucker and BO was underwhelming and it was not what it could have been. The Russos said that if they killed anyone, we'd automatically sympathize more with the side who lost someone. Plus, as Infinity War is THE main storyline they need everyone around for that. That's why they weren't going to kill Cap or anyone. He was demonstrating how his device was meant to help treat people with emotional problems due to bad memories. He chose the one they would've all probably known about from his public history. And it set up the ending well too. Okay, you just dislike the character. I get that. I'm guessing you mean ZEMO's plan, not Struckers'. Frankly I don't see how anyone could call his plans convoluted and be fine with Joker in TDK. Oh, yeah. Zemo. Joker’s plans in TDK do stretch credulity but if you’re going to do that then do it in style. Civil War lacked that. TWS has it but Civil War felt soulless. There was little haunting about it. I don’t really feel that Cap and Tony had intense feelings about anything there. And yet the stage was set for something momentous. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 11, 2018 21:54:18 GMT
I dunno if I believe that Natasha wouldn't be able to evade them. Cap, fine, because he appears to have all the technical savvy of a rock. But let's see how it plays out. There've been good action beats so far. Dude you’ve never seen Winter Soldier? It rocks, man. Yeah, it was pretty good. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2018 22:00:00 GMT
Dude you’ve never seen Winter Soldier? It rocks, man. Yeah, it was pretty good. Wasn’t Armin Zola and Winter Soldier cool? And did you see in Zola’s montage they hinted that Winter Soldier killed Tony’s Dad? And Nick Fury was a badass. ‘Kill them before they step out of their spider hole’ LOL |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 11, 2018 22:12:18 GMT
Yeah, it was pretty good. Wasn’t Armin Zola and Winter Soldier cool? And did you see in Zola’s montage they hinted that Winter Soldier killed Tony’s Dad? And Nick Fury was a badass. ‘Kill them before they step out of their spider hole’ LOL Nick Fury was my favorite character in the movie, hands down. They did a good job with the WS character and that montage. It was tightly plotted, too, considering its length. Prolly better than any MCU I've seen save for The Avengers and 100% better than First Avenger. While that felt plodding and paint-by-numbers, this was engaging and fun to watch. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2018 22:15:41 GMT
Wasn’t Armin Zola and Winter Soldier cool? And did you see in Zola’s montage they hinted that Winter Soldier killed Tony’s Dad? And Nick Fury was a badass. ‘Kill them before they step out of their spider hole’ LOL Nick Fury was my favorite character in the movie, hands down. They did a good job with the WS character and that montage. It was tightly plotted, too, considering its length. Prolly better than any MCU I've seen save for The Avengers and 100% better than First Avenger. While that felt plodding and paint-by-numbers, this was engaging and fun to watch. I just watched Iron Man and that’s up there as the best too. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 22:43:05 GMT
A good point. There is a touch of foreshadowing in Ultron that Tony is regressing. But basing his choice on the damage in AoU seemed paper thin. Iron Man 2 was literally all about him keeping the world away from his suits and now he's done a complete reversal. I could swallow all of that just fine, but it's clearly done in Civil War to make Cap the "good guy." It's not done for the sake of giving Tony a good arc. His character is a plot device and nothing more. It’s not just AoU (and forget about IM3, I’m still in therapy about that). Tony’s dad did fight against the Nazis. Tony’s Dad was a tough father but he also did so much for Tony. Losing him and also to find out that it was due to a ‘Soviet’ (it wasn’t known to be Hydra at that stage) and then for a band of super powered lefties to protect that fugitive WOULD make Tony the man he was. That plus Tony’s tech prowess created Ultron whichwould give him guilt, not to mention atoning for that would help save his skin from the authorities. There are many reasons why Tony would be an authoritarian promoting the registration of capes. He knows how dangerous they are. Tony’s swagger and nonchalance is just a superficial exterior. He is not nor ever was a champion of the fundamentals of the constitution. He’s a scared, fragile man in a tough suit. You bet he feels more comfortable with control and order. Very interesting analysis. I see where you're coming from. I just don't think they spend quite enough time on his transition from what he is in IM2 to Cap 3. The priority in Cap 3, naturally, is Cap. I would've liked an Iron Man 4 after AoU to fill in some of that character arc. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 22:48:01 GMT
Not when it's done so poorly and randomly. Made sense to me. He had time to think things over between AOU and CW and felt bad. Exactly. All of the character development happens between movies, not in them. Bad way to write a character arc. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 22:48:39 GMT
Nick Fury was my favorite character in the movie, hands down. They did a good job with the WS character and that montage. It was tightly plotted, too, considering its length. Prolly better than any MCU I've seen save for The Avengers and 100% better than First Avenger. While that felt plodding and paint-by-numbers, this was engaging and fun to watch. I just watched Iron Man and that’s up there as the best too. I still think Iron Mang is the best MCU movie. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 0:00:18 GMT
Made sense to me. He had time to think things over between AOU and CW and felt bad. Exactly. All of the character development happens between movies, not in them. Bad way to write a character arc. So it's okay for the FoX-Men movies to do this off-screen development, but not the MCU? It's not like we need to be spoonfed, we can easily pick up on why Tony is doing things based on past events without being told. What do you want, for Tony to say "I made Ultron and feel bad, so I'm doing this" instead of having it be clear from his actions? |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 12, 2018 2:48:22 GMT
Exactly. All of the character development happens between movies, not in them. Bad way to write a character arc. So it's okay for the FoX-Men movies to do this off-screen development, but not the MCU? It's not like we need to be spoonfed, we can easily pick up on why Tony is doing things based on past events without being told. What do you want, for Tony to say "I made Ultron and feel bad, so I'm doing this" instead of having it be clear from his actions?
He pretty much does say that. I just didn't know what the hell he was talking about.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 4:37:36 GMT
Exactly. All of the character development happens between movies, not in them. Bad way to write a character arc. So it's okay for the FoX-Men movies to do this off-screen development, but not the MCU? It's not like we need to be spoonfed, we can easily pick up on why Tony is doing things based on past events without being told. What do you want, for Tony to say "I made Ultron and feel bad, so I'm doing this" instead of having it be clear from his actions? So... Basically, you're saying that the MCU isn't any better than the X Men movies. |
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Post by Jedan Archer on Feb 12, 2018 10:00:35 GMT
LOL. Hilarious thread to read. I had similar issues with this one. This may be the ultimate kick for MCU fans but for casual movie goears asking for continuity and logic it's just a ADHS mess.
I went in expecting to see the last CA movie in the trilogy, you know closing all the tangling story threads and arcs from the previous films like Hydra, Shield and Winter soldier. I got essentially a weak Avenger movie (as these make more cash) awkwardly shoehorning in origin stories for characters like Spiderman or the BP with hardly any screen time for the named characters and elements.
I thought the airport scene was one of the cringest and most forced fight scenes ever, obviously just shoved into this to create some soap opera drama tension, it felt more like a random team sport match than a serious confict - A Civil War between heroes played for laughs and pop culture quips ("You know this really old movie.." sigh). The final brawl between Iron Man and CA because of Iron's mommy was forced as hell too.
Not the worst MCU by any rate, but as a drama and final trilogy act an utter failure and disapointment to me.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 12:01:29 GMT
So it's okay for the FoX-Men movies to do this off-screen development, but not the MCU? It's not like we need to be spoonfed, we can easily pick up on why Tony is doing things based on past events without being told. What do you want, for Tony to say "I made Ultron and feel bad, so I'm doing this" instead of having it be clear from his actions? So... Basically, you're saying that the MCU isn't any better than the X Men movies. I'm saying you can't have it both ways. If the X-Men films can do the 'development between movies' thing and you ignore it there, why won't you do the same for the MCU? Especially since the MCU sets up the changes better anyways. |
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