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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 14:52:35 GMT
you totally forgot to bring up the old fable of how in MCU's early cradle-days Nolanites, DCEU-nites and FoxMens Hoped it would die in its infancy and take all its ideas with it. |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 11, 2018 16:10:17 GMT
you totally forgot to bring up the old fable of how in MCU's early cradle-days Nolanites, DCEU-nites and FoxMens Hoped it would die in its infancy and take all its ideas with it. yeah interesting, to play Darth Godwin, it's like the old thought experiment whether it would be ethical to snuff out baby Hitler to prevent his future deeds. Without MCU, how would the industry have developed sans this formulaic money printing machine setting the tone, how many grown up blockbusters would have been greenlit, would we have gotten a Star Wars without YO Mamma jokes, and would have Marvel made up new new stuff (lol) instead of regurgitating second row leftovers? We will never know alas. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 16:19:48 GMT
yeah interesting, to play Darth Godwin, it's like the old thought experiment whether it would be ethical to snuff out baby Hitler to prevent his future deeds. Go play Red Alert, answers your question. There wouldn't be much of one at all, people would still be too ashamed of doing non-grounded stuff. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 11, 2018 16:20:05 GMT
It's not enough that these MCU movies are considered to be better than a lot of superhero movies. The ones that they aren't considered to be better than there needs to be some excuse for so as to bring all other movies down. When the fans of those movies keep babbling about how utterly perfect those films are, they deserve some deflating. (Dark Knight, DOFP, Wonder Woman, Logan) No, I can accept that. Just not if they say LOTR is utter perfection. Not true, the Nolanites and FoX-Fans have been saying the entire MCU is one gigantic mistake right from day one and keep saying stuff like "BvS will destroy every MCU movie past present and future" and then whenever their chosen movie fails they move onto the next one like "Wonder Woman destroys every MCU movie past present and future" and then "Justice League will destroy the entire MCU". I've never seen any MCU fans saying things like "Thor Ragnarok will destroy the DCEU". They can accept that other film series exist and are fine with their continued existence. The MCU, however, cannot be allowed to exist according to DC and FoX fans. Yes, NOW. Now, after years of getting nothing but s*** from FoX fans. Oh yes they do. If they didn't, we wouldn't have had insane things like people wanting the Joker retired permanently after Ledger died. They didn't when DOFP came out, in fact that was another "This film destroys the entire MCU, past present and future!" films they cling to. Aw, buddy. You're having a meltdown, and it's not nearly enjoyable as I would've hoped. Chill a bit. If it makes you feel better the seeds of at least Cap's independent thought are explicitly addressed in the beginning of Winter Soldier, which I went back and am watching. That's fun. Innit? Yo, my boy Fury'd better not be dead. Is he dead? And why are his action scenes always the best? I want a Nick Fury movie. If -- if he survives this current one I'm watching... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 19:22:49 GMT
Damn. It's almost like these movies are connected to the point of dependency and I'm an idiot for skipping ahead. (Don't even say a word, formersamhmd !!!1) No. Watching Ultron makes zero difference. You're absolutely correct in your OP. Now, I should say I really like Civil War. It's one of my favorite comic book movies. But yeah, they mischaracterized Tony completely for the sake of a contrived conflict. There is NOTHING in Ultron that explains this. None of the collateral damage is given any weight in Ultron. My opinion is that Civil War should've been an Avengers movie. That way Stark wouldn't have been given such crappy characterization. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 19:23:52 GMT
The MCU isn't something where you can skip movies, you have to watch them all because even stuff in one film that seems unconnected to the rest will possibly have some connection. If you stopped after Iron Man 3 then you need to watch Thor the Dark World, Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy and Age of Ultron. Even Ant-Man. Then Civil War. Can I at least skip Dark World? It always looked rubbish and even weirdraptor said it's the weakest link in the chain. YES! Skip that shit! And skip it good! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 19:27:00 GMT
It didn't feel organic at all. Like in the comics, Tony and Cap switching roles so to speak is meant to be clever and thought provoking. "Golly gee. The government does bad stuff?" So you don't feel the installments I missed justified his character change? When he was immediately, like twenty minutes into the movie, just like, "We have to comply with this, no question," I was like, "Wait, what?! Tony, the badass, the freethinker, the renegade, the genius?!" I'm still surprised, and meanwhile Cap is like, "fight the power." As Jerry Seinfeld famously said: WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? Unless some majorly fucked up shit goes down in, like, Winter Soldier. BONUS POINTS for the Jerry Seinfeld reference! |
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2018 19:28:29 GMT
Oh Civil War is piss weak, but Tony as the right wing hardass who craves order is consistent. As you get older one often becomes like one’s parents. That plus Tony was designing and selling weapons until he was 40. The dictator is still in Tony Stark.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 19:34:57 GMT
Oh Civil War is piss weak, but Tony as the right wing hardass who craves order is consistent. As you get older one often becomes like one’s parents. That plus Tony was designing and selling weapons until he was 40. The dictator is still in Tony Stark. A good point. There is a touch of foreshadowing in Ultron that Tony is regressing. But basing his choice on the damage in AoU seemed paper thin. Iron Man 2 was literally all about him keeping the world away from his suits and now he's done a complete reversal. I could swallow all of that just fine, but it's clearly done in Civil War to make Cap the "good guy." It's not done for the sake of giving Tony a good arc. His character is a plot device and nothing more. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 19:37:19 GMT
Damn. It's almost like these movies are connected to the point of dependency and I'm an idiot for skipping ahead. (Don't even say a word, formersamhmd !!!1) There is NOTHING in Ultron that explains this. None of the collateral damage is given any weight in Ultron. They had too much to deal with in AOU with the immediate situation to think about the total impact. By Civil War, they had had time to think about it all. Tony specifically. His brazen actions helped unleash a being that killed thousands and destroyed a country. That's the thing about the MCU, instead of wrapping up everything in one movie and then having a time jump or something (like FoX-Men) they just have another movie not too long after to deal with the aftermath. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 19:38:07 GMT
Iron Man 2 was literally all about him keeping the world away from his suits and now he's done a complete reversal. It's called character development. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 19:39:45 GMT
There is NOTHING in Ultron that explains this. None of the collateral damage is given any weight in Ultron. They had too much to deal with in AOU with the immediate situation to think about the total impact. By Civil War, they had had time to think about it all. Tony specifically. His brazen actions helped unleash a being that killed thousands and destroyed a country. That's the thing about the MCU, instead of wrapping up everything in one movie and then having a time jump or something (like FoX-Men) they just have another movie not too long after to deal with the aftermath. No. It was contrived for the sake of making Tony act in a way that's out of character. The Accords being based on Slokovia is good advancement of the series, but Tony's actions are a bit forced. What they should've emphasized was his guilt for creating Ultron. But they didn't. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 19:40:34 GMT
Iron Man 2 was literally all about him keeping the world away from his suits and now he's done a complete reversal. It's called character development. Not when it's done so poorly and randomly. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 19:45:40 GMT
They had too much to deal with in AOU with the immediate situation to think about the total impact. By Civil War, they had had time to think about it all. Tony specifically. His brazen actions helped unleash a being that killed thousands and destroyed a country. That's the thing about the MCU, instead of wrapping up everything in one movie and then having a time jump or something (like FoX-Men) they just have another movie not too long after to deal with the aftermath. No. It was contrived for the sake of making Tony act in a way that's out of character. The Accords being based on Slokovia is good advancement of the series, but Tony's actions are a bit forced. What they should've emphasized was his guilt for creating Ultron. But they didn't. How are his actions forced? He had time to think things over from AOU to Civil War, and his actions in creating Ultron are a part of the reason why he was fine with the Accords in CW. Where is it indicated that they weren't? |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 19:46:16 GMT
It's called character development. Not when it's done so poorly and randomly. Made sense to me. He had time to think things over between AOU and CW and felt bad. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2018 19:57:46 GMT
Oh Civil War is piss weak, but Tony as the right wing hardass who craves order is consistent. As you get older one often becomes like one’s parents. That plus Tony was designing and selling weapons until he was 40. The dictator is still in Tony Stark. A good point. There is a touch of foreshadowing in Ultron that Tony is regressing. But basing his choice on the damage in AoU seemed paper thin. Iron Man 2 was literally all about him keeping the world away from his suits and now he's done a complete reversal. I could swallow all of that just fine, but it's clearly done in Civil War to make Cap the "good guy." It's not done for the sake of giving Tony a good arc. His character is a plot device and nothing more. It’s not just AoU (and forget about IM3, I’m still in therapy about that). Tony’s dad did fight against the Nazis. Tony’s Dad was a tough father but he also did so much for Tony. Losing him and also to find out that it was due to a ‘Soviet’ (it wasn’t known to be Hydra at that stage) and then for a band of super powered lefties to protect that fugitive WOULD make Tony the man he was. That plus Tony’s tech prowess created Ultron whichwould give him guilt, not to mention atoning for that would help save his skin from the authorities. There are many reasons why Tony would be an authoritarian promoting the registration of capes. He knows how dangerous they are. Tony’s swagger and nonchalance is just a superficial exterior. He is not nor ever was a champion of the fundamentals of the constitution. He’s a scared, fragile man in a tough suit. You bet he feels more comfortable with control and order. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 11, 2018 20:00:42 GMT
A good point. There is a touch of foreshadowing in Ultron that Tony is regressing. But basing his choice on the damage in AoU seemed paper thin. Iron Man 2 was literally all about him keeping the world away from his suits and now he's done a complete reversal. I could swallow all of that just fine, but it's clearly done in Civil War to make Cap the "good guy." It's not done for the sake of giving Tony a good arc. His character is a plot device and nothing more. It’s not just AoU (and forget about IM3, I’m still in therapy about that). Tony’s dad did fight against the Nazis. Tony’s Dad was a tough father but he also did so much for Tony. Losing him and also to find out that it was due to a ‘Soviet’ (it wasn’t known to be Hydra at that stage) and then for a band of super powered lefties WOULD make Tony the man he was. That plus Tony’s tech prowess created Ultron whichwould give him guilt, not to mention atoning for that would help save his skin from the authorities. There are many reasons why Tony would be an authoritarian promoting the registration of capes. He knows how dangerous they are. Tony’s swagger and nonchalance is just a superficial exterior. He is not nor ever was a champion of the fundamentals of the constitution. He’s a scared, fragile man in a tough suit. You bet he feels more comfortable with control and order. Wow! Compelling argument. I still don't know if I buy it, but there's something there. Meanwhile, I'm halfway through WS and the entirety of SHIELD has been co-opted to fuck, which somewhat explains Cap's later cynicism with institutions of authority... curiouser and curiouser... |
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2018 20:04:01 GMT
It’s not just AoU (and forget about IM3, I’m still in therapy about that). Tony’s dad did fight against the Nazis. Tony’s Dad was a tough father but he also did so much for Tony. Losing him and also to find out that it was due to a ‘Soviet’ (it wasn’t known to be Hydra at that stage) and then for a band of super powered lefties WOULD make Tony the man he was. That plus Tony’s tech prowess created Ultron whichwould give him guilt, not to mention atoning for that would help save his skin from the authorities. There are many reasons why Tony would be an authoritarian promoting the registration of capes. He knows how dangerous they are. Tony’s swagger and nonchalance is just a superficial exterior. He is not nor ever was a champion of the fundamentals of the constitution. He’s a scared, fragile man in a tough suit. You bet he feels more comfortable with control and order. Wow! Compelling argument. I still don't know if I buy it, but there's something there. Meanwhile, I'm halfway through WS and the entirety of SHIELD has been co-opted to fuck, which somewhat explains Cap's later cynicism with institutions of authority... curiouser and curiouser... Also Cap’s experience of his superpowers and abilities have only been for good. He probably idealises the freedom to use them because HE has never caused evil with them. Tony knows all too well through experience how easy it is for them to be a destructive force. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2018 20:09:47 GMT
Wow! Compelling argument. I still don't know if I buy it, but there's something there. Meanwhile, I'm halfway through WS and the entirety of SHIELD has been co-opted to fuck, which somewhat explains Cap's later cynicism with institutions of authority... curiouser and curiouser... Also Cap’s experience of his superpowers and abilities have only been for good. He probably idealises the freedom to use them because HE has never caused evil with them. Tony knows all too well through experience how easy it is for them to be a destructive force. So it sounds like you can appreciate that Civil War managed to make them both have validity to their positions. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2018 20:20:31 GMT
Also Cap’s experience of his superpowers and abilities have only been for good. He probably idealises the freedom to use them because HE has never caused evil with them. Tony knows all too well through experience how easy it is for them to be a destructive force. So it sounds like you can appreciate that Civil War managed to make them both have validity to their positions. I can and I don’t hate Civil War but it could have been much better. Also I put some blame on Whedon with his creation of Scarlett Witch and Vision. The Russos inherited that and had to work with it. They did well with WS but not with CW. |
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