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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 12:04:19 GMT
LOL. Hilarious thread to read. I had similar issues with this one. This may be the ultimate kick for MCU fans but for casual movie goears asking for continuity and logic it's just a ADHS mess. If you expect the movies to be standalones unaffected by one another. That isn't how the MCU works, stuff introduced in one film is not isolated to that one film and they are under no obligation to keep them confined to that one film. Introducing Hydra in Cap doesn't mean it ends in Cap. So you dislike it when characters get introduced not in their first movie, so you dislike foreshadowing. If you were expecting them to massacre each other in a bloodbath, maybe. But the MCU characters don't fight at the drop of a hat. This isn't DC. |
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Post by Jedan Archer on Feb 12, 2018 12:07:39 GMT
LOL. Hilarious thread to read. I had similar issues with this one. This may be the ultimate kick for MCU fans but for casual movie goears asking for continuity and logic it's just a ADHS mess. If you expect the movies to be standalones unaffected by one another. That isn't how the MCU works, stuff introduced in one film is not isolated to that one film and they are under no obligation to keep them confined to that one film. Introducing Hydra in Cap doesn't mean it ends in Cap. So you dislike it when characters get introduced not in their first movie, so you dislike foreshadowing. If you were expecting them to massacre each other in a bloodbath, maybe. But the MCU characters don't fight at the drop of a hat. This isn't DC. The lady dost protest too much, methinks. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 12:45:05 GMT
If you expect the movies to be standalones unaffected by one another. That isn't how the MCU works, stuff introduced in one film is not isolated to that one film and they are under no obligation to keep them confined to that one film. Introducing Hydra in Cap doesn't mean it ends in Cap. So you dislike it when characters get introduced not in their first movie, so you dislike foreshadowing. If you were expecting them to massacre each other in a bloodbath, maybe. But the MCU characters don't fight at the drop of a hat. This isn't DC. The lady dost protest too much, methinks. Look, the MCU goes for a different system than "Absolutely standalone, no connection whatsoever and everything wrapped up in a neat little package" storytelling. Deal with it. |
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Post by Jedan Archer on Feb 12, 2018 12:56:07 GMT
The lady dost protest too much, methinks. Look, the MCU goes for a different system than "Absolutely standalone, no connection whatsoever and everything wrapped up in a neat little package" storytelling. Deal with it. Look, I do, what about you?
MCU indeed goes for the diferent system of "Bad storytelling only following-up on characters and tone that workedcommercially better in other parts of the MCU".
Thus you get a Cap3 film turned DietAvengers without finishing the narrative starnds that came before. Thus you get Thor3 suddenly with a juvenile Guardians tone and aborting what came before such as plot, characters, relationships and tone as well as mythology.
An utter storytelling abomination, I feel sorry for MCU fans as far as they have the capacity to realize the storytelling scam they are being subjected to. Most will likely only after MCU finishes. My condolances in advance.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 13:03:58 GMT
Look, the MCU goes for a different system than "Absolutely standalone, no connection whatsoever and everything wrapped up in a neat little package" storytelling. Deal with it. Look, I do, what about you?
MCU indeed goes for the diferent system of "Bad storytelling only following-up on characters and tone that workedcommercially better in other parts of the MCU".
Thus you get a Cap3 film turned DietAvengers without finishing the narrative starnds that came before. Thus you get Thor3 suddenly with a juvenile Guardians tone and aborting what came before such as plot, characters, relationships and tone as well as mythology.
An utter storytelling abomination, I feel sorry for MCU fans as far as they have the capacity to realize the storytelling scam they are being subjected to. Most will likely only after MCU finishes. My condolances in advance.
So having characters interact at all is bad storytelling, got it. Characters meeting up for some bigger plot is not some Avengers-Exclusive deal. The entire MCU is built on these interactions.
Cap's story was never some exclusive "Cap vs Hydra" deal, that's just limiting. Hydra was introduced as a MCU-wide threat, not just a Cap one. Stop being so small-minded.
Thor 3's tone is perfectly in line with the comics stories where he DOES fight aliens and go to other planets. Which you'd know if you read any. There's no need for there to be just one tone, that's just limiting. And it followed up on the prior plot points fine, so I don't why you're complaining.
Honestly, break out of your box.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Feb 12, 2018 14:14:17 GMT
Look, I do, what about you?
So having characters interact at all is bad storytelling, got it. Characters meeting up for some bigger plot is not some Avengers-Exclusive deal. The entire MCU is built on these interactions.
Cap's story was never some exclusive "Cap vs Hydra" deal, that's just limiting. Hydra was introduced as a MCU-wide threat, not just a Cap one. Stop being so small-minded.
Thor 3's tone is perfectly in line with the comics stories where he DOES fight aliens and go to other planets. Which you'd know if you read any. There's no need for there to be just one tone, that's just limiting. And it followed up on the prior plot points fine, so I don't why you're complaining.
Honestly, break out of your box.
It's sloppy badly executed storytelling. That simple. We do not even have to discuss the big issues, just take the Thor-Jane thing as an example of central storytelling ruined by the shared universe approach:
- Thor I: Big Love and romantic relationship as central story element causes character change in thor. But lovers are finally seperated by the broken bridge .- bitter sweet ending, will they ever meet again?
- Avengers I: Thor is suddenly on Earth again when needed to clobber some aliens, the bridge seems to be repaired somehow - but what's that, he does not visit his big love Jane..? Amnesia? Magic spells?
- Thor II: Thor not visiting Jane is resolved by her slapping him in the face (funny), and him not having a sound explanation except for that he was busy with swarma soup eating. But they are big love birds again just because, he even takes her to Asgard to meet his parents. Future first lady and Godfather, do we hear Norse wedding horns?
- Thor III: No, Jane is suddenly gone and they are not together anymore, everybody on Earth knows it except us the audience suckers. Character development and explanations are thrown out of the window and replaced by juvenile pseudo-jokes again, this time about who really ended the relationship. Insert eye roll.
That is good writing and storytelling for you? Similar: Iron Man and Pepper's relationship, which seems to follow the same badly written patterns. Essential character development seems to happen off screen.
Oh is it? If it's a MCU-wide threat where is this ever dealt with or even mentioned in the movies, maybe I missed one. And don't say in some crummy TV show or book please or I rest my case. Do I smell a Jane & Pepper thing again?
Going back to Star Wars: The whole Winter Soldier thing structurally reminds me of the Empire/dark side slowly growing out of the Republic like a cancer, only here it's Hyra growing out of Shield. There is a more kiddy-friendly version of Order 66, cool Sam Jackson is there killed, you also have Obi Wan and Anakin fighting and one trying to redeem an old friend gone dark side.
It's essentially Star Wars sans the brillint villain of Palpatine. But would you ever expect in the next SW movie that the Empire is suddenly gone and not mentioned anymore...like Hydra? Good storytelling for you...
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 14:27:38 GMT
It's sloppy badly executed storytelling. If you expect thing to never change and stay exactly the same for several movies straight, maybe. It was never intended by Branagh to be this big romance in the first place. They couldn't get Portman in time and they didn't have time with the crisis at hand. Unfortunate but believable. [/strong]: No, Jane[/quote] It was never meant to be an epic romance based on how little time they actually had together and Portman didn't want to come back. Yeah, shows how romances based on minimal time together doesn't work out. We don't need to see everything, in real life people break up and get back together like that.
There are numerous cells independent of one another all over the place in the MCU, they were the bad guys in Ant-Man and Agents of SHIELD.
Star Wars only ever had the one opposing faction for the Rebels to fight, rather than numerous factions. The MCU however, has more to deal with than Hydra. |
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Post by charzhino on Feb 12, 2018 15:19:53 GMT
When the you take the MCU as the gold standard of storytelling then you really are at the point of no return.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 15:30:15 GMT
When the you take the MCU as the gold standard of storytelling then you really are at the point of no return. As opposed to sh*tting on it at every turn and refusing to acknowledge a single good idea in there, while ignoring any failings of other CBM series (DCEU and FoX-Men)? |
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Post by charzhino on Feb 12, 2018 15:41:27 GMT
When the you take the MCU as the gold standard of storytelling then you really are at the point of no return. As opposed to sh*tting on it at every turn and refusing to acknowledge a single good idea in there, while ignoring any failings of other CBM series (DCEU and FoX-Men)? Now I know why summers8 say all you hardcore MCU fans lie. You know very well i have said positive things about the MCU and dont devalue it "at every turn". And iv also pointed out flaws with other franchise movies, doesnt change my opinion that Xmen has better storytelling than tge MCU. All your excuses you just listed to Jedan Archer are just that, excuses. His points are genuine flaws and your stubbornness wont allow you to accept it, instesd you have to make up some BS excuse like "we dont need to be spoonfed" or "things like that happen in real life" forgetting that these are cinematic storybooks so leaving the audience to concoct their own version of missing key events is bad storytelling especially when they ignore it and pass it off as a joke |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 15:48:24 GMT
As opposed to sh*tting on it at every turn and refusing to acknowledge a single good idea in there, while ignoring any failings of other CBM series (DCEU and FoX-Men)? Now I know why summers8 say all you hardcore MCU fans lie. You know very well i have said positive things about the MCU and dont devalue it "at every turn". Could have fooled me. Summers8 just hates any Marvel characters that aren't X-Related, Spidey-Related of FF related. He hates them for existing at all. Not being informed of every single aspect of romantic relationships isn't a genuine flaw. X-Men acts like Jean and Logan had some epic romance when they barely knew each other. Moira and Xavier are another one where he suddenly remembers her and how he violated his mind 20 years ago and then she vanishes again. Did Logan tell us every single detail of how Logan got where he was at the start of the story or did it imply some things and let us fill in the blanks? Same thing. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Feb 12, 2018 15:51:57 GMT
Didn't they talk about Jane in Avengers? Didn't Thor mention that Odin used his own energy to send Thor to Midgard to bring back Loki? That's why he didn't come by the Rainbow Bridge. He just appeared.
Also, you guys still aren't getting that these are more point of view movies and not individual franchises that come together. That's why you can have Coulson in Iron Man 2 talk about going somewhere that has to do with Thor and continue that thread in Thor. These are actual comic book movies and not movies adapted from comics. Or better yet, live action motion comics. That's why they work and resonate with fans.
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Post by ThatGuy on Feb 12, 2018 15:55:55 GMT
Now I know why summers8 say all you hardcore MCU fans lie. You know very well i have said positive things about the MCU and dont devalue it "at every turn". Could have fooled me. Not being informed of every single aspect of romantic relationships isn't a genuine flaw. X-Men acts like Jean and Logan had some epic romance when they barely knew each other. Moira and Xavier are another one where he suddenly remembers her and how he violated his mind 20 years ago and then she vanishes again. Did Logan tell us every single detail of how Logan got where he was at the start of the story or did it imply some things and let us fill in the blanks? Same thing. Didn't they say that Thor and Jane broke up? I remember they mention this in the beginning of the movie. It's not like they just left it out there on why she isn't there. He even had a sad look on his face. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 16:00:06 GMT
Could have fooled me. Not being informed of every single aspect of romantic relationships isn't a genuine flaw. X-Men acts like Jean and Logan had some epic romance when they barely knew each other. Moira and Xavier are another one where he suddenly remembers her and how he violated his mind 20 years ago and then she vanishes again. Did Logan tell us every single detail of how Logan got where he was at the start of the story or did it imply some things and let us fill in the blanks? Same thing. Didn't they say that Thor and Jane broke up? I remember they mention this in the beginning of the movie. It's not like they just left it out there on why she isn't there. He even had a sad look on his face. Yes, but apparently we need a 30 minute breakup sequence to spoonfeed the audience. |
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Post by charzhino on Feb 12, 2018 16:08:54 GMT
Not being informed of every single aspect of romantic relationships isn't a genuine flaw. X-Men acts like Jean and Logan had some epic romance when they barely knew each other. Moira and Xavier are another one where he suddenly remembers her and how he violated his mind 20 years ago and then she vanishes again. So Logan liked a pretty woman after she revived him on a medical table and they developed a mutual attraction. Big crime that doesnt happen every day right? The greater point is how well XCU treat their relationship. After Wolverine kills her out of necessity (something MCU wouldnt have the guts to do) the whole relationship isnt just tossed into the trash and forgotten like Jane/Thor, Pepper/Stark and even Cap/Peggy to an extent. In The Wolverine, Logan is seen to be severely affected by her death to the point he has constant nightmares and lives in seclusion. Its a consistent theme from X1 to show how important their unity was. Granted this really should have been between Scott and Jean but the underlying point stands: MCU treat things like this with no solidity. With Moira its a similar situation to Jane in Avengers as in DOFP. Both movies didnt have space for them and they were written out with valid reasons so no problem there. The only issue comes to Ragnarok, where Jane is thrown to the dogs figuratively. In Apocalypse, Moira isnt and the initial love interest that developed between the 2 in First Class is payed off at the end of Apocalypse when Charles restores her memories and has a touching reunification moment with her. Its simply better writing in comparison, even you must see that. The consequences of Logan and Xaviers dealings off screen are explored heavily in the film. They make up the main plot! Wheras in Ragnarok, everything that Loki did to get the throne are tossed away. Just like how everything in IM3 tossed away in AoU. |
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Post by charzhino on Feb 12, 2018 16:12:07 GMT
Didn't they say that Thor and Jane broke up? I remember they mention this in the beginning of the movie. It's not like they just left it out there on why she isn't there. He even had a sad look on his face. In a very disrespectful way considering what Jane meant to Thor (supposedly). |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 12, 2018 16:25:03 GMT
Didn't they say that Thor and Jane broke up? I remember they mention this in the beginning of the movie. It's not like they just left it out there on why she isn't there. He even had a sad look on his face. In a very disrespectful way considering what Jane meant to Thor (supposedly). uh, these people just do not get the point. It's hilarious. And explains so much. |
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Post by charzhino on Feb 12, 2018 16:31:31 GMT
In a very disrespectful way considering what Jane meant to Thor (supposedly). uh, these people just do not get the point. It's hilarious. And explains so much. Atleast im not getting insulted when pointing out a flaw in an MCU movie, who knows what expletives weirdraptor would have hurled at me if he was still active |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 12, 2018 16:49:46 GMT
Didn't they talk about Jane in Avengers? Didn't Thor mention that Odin used his own energy to send Thor to Midgard to bring back Loki? That's why he didn't come by the Rainbow Bridge. He just appeared. awesome, forgot about that! That's an excellent textbook example of ex machina writing creating a plot hole. Adds insult to injury to the Thor&Jane romance treatment. Thanks dude. 
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2018 16:52:17 GMT
Not being informed of every single aspect of romantic relationships isn't a genuine flaw. X-Men acts like Jean and Logan had some epic romance when they barely knew each other. Moira and Xavier are another one where he suddenly remembers her and how he violated his mind 20 years ago and then she vanishes again. So Logan liked a pretty woman after she revived him on a medical table and they developed a mutual attraction. Big crime that doesnt happen every day right? If they have no real interactions on an emotional level after that, then no it's NOT good enough for some epic romance. No, the XCU makes a mountain out of a molehill. Logan is deeply affected by someone he barely knew. The whole thing is really ludicrous when you think about it. Well the real reason was that they were tired of Portman and her complaining (not just about the character, but other stuff she demanded they didn't give her) and how she never cared about the role to begin with. They were certain she wasn't coming back so they decided to just toss it out. Rose Byrne wasn't so difficult to work with so they were willing to bring her back. No they aren't. They don't give us a detailed fact-for-fact step-by-step explanation of everything that happened. Er, no. Everything that happened in that film was a direct result of him taking the Throne and getting rid of Odin. Surtur being unafraid to try and retake control of his realm, Hela being freed, everyone getting massacred by her, it's all thanks to Loki. Thor was fine leaving him to be probably killed by the Grandmaster for failing to stop Thor. At least AOU gave us the plot explanation that Wanda messing with Tony's head drove him to actions he wouldn't have otherwise done. |
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