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Post by Winter_King on Apr 15, 2019 15:59:14 GMT
It's amazing how you see this as "un-European" while others think that the problem is that there aren't enough people of color or that Dany storyline is the typical white savior narrative. That's why most of these complains are silly and not worth listening to. I remember the show being criticized by SJWs and feminists during season five only to have the exact reverse happening in season 6 with anti SJWs complaining about the feminist agenda. Well the other complaints are (in part) politically motivated and encouraged by the media, the claims that it is unEuropean is not. Depictions of white male failure is never discussed in the media. BTW it does to varying degree--affect depictions of other races too though-- the Rock's character in the Scorpion King has some of that--and even the Black Panther suggested the super powers of Wakanda was due in part to an alien meteor--which was not in the original concept-he was one of the very few natural heroes in Marvel).
How many times I have been challenged on this and all I can do is say--show me the Errol Flynn Robin Hood type in these shows. The handsome, tall, positive authority figure male, good-natured hero guy who is victorious. The Stewart Granger, Richard Greene etc..
I noticed before that the prominent women on the show don't have the "Judi Bowker/Julie Andrews/Diana Rigg" type which used to be a common look for an English actress (i.e. small nose). They seem to steer anyway from that anglo look and emphasize eccentric appearances.
That's because it rarely happens. Most of the heroes in western fiction are white and they succeed more often than not. Even in Game of Thones which has basically three main characters: Jon Snow, Danaerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister. All three are white. What you object is having white characters with flaws. Since Mary/Gary Stus are poorly written protagonists, they aren't as common in fiction. And that's a good thing.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Apr 15, 2019 16:06:42 GMT
I was one of the first Game of Thrones fanboys, and one of the first to move on to other things.
I LOVED the first book when it came out. Many people don't know when the first book came out it was marketed as a new trilogy. I think it was sometime after the second book came out that it turned out that Martin was not going to be able to wrap it up in three books.
The second book was good too, but started to spread things out and introduce more new characters that I didn't really care too much about.
Things were becoming diluted. I enjoyed the third book but when the forth came out I was no longer interested. I think I read half of it and didn't even finish it.
I rented the HBO series from the library and tried to get into it.. not my cup of blood. I'm watching Shameless right now and really enjoying that.
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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 15, 2019 17:06:15 GMT
That's because it rarely happens. Most of the heroes in western fiction are white and they succeed more often than not. Even in Game of Thones which has basically three main characters: Jon Snow, Danaerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister. All three are white. What you object is having white characters with flaws. Since Mary/Gary Stus are poorly written protagonists, they aren't as common in fiction. And that's a good thing. Here we go again. I am not even going to bother to check how in line those male characters are to a Robin Hood etc...There are many types of flaws. Overconfidence, laziness, cowardice etc. Chances are the flaws with those characters are well beyond Hamlet feeling doubts about whether he can carry out his mission to redeem his father. There is no variation in these depictions. The white male is always seriously flawed unless he is a wimp. In Pirates of the Caribbean 4, the Christian Errol Flynn-type character is introduced tied to a ship mast--he spends most of the film as a prisoner-and his only act of initiative is to free a mermaid so she can drag his dying self underwater. Meanwhile the Obama-type Spanish ruler is shown to be authoritative and successful.
Danaerys is a positive role model? She has (dyed) blonde hair!
"The image of a girl with flaxen-coloured hair has been utilized in fine art as a symbol of innocence and naivety."
In Hollywood though, the color is often associated with evil. Excalibur--despite the prominence of light-colored hair in England, the good characters in the film are all dark-haired. Traditionally, it is the swarthy types associated with evil (the black sheep). In The Mask of Zorro-the psychotic bad guy is blonde.
Veronica Carlson is exactly the kind of type avoided by Hollywood for any kind of prominent attention. She wasn't ditzy like a Goldie Hawn and she wasn't a Marylin airheaded type either.
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Post by movieliker on Apr 15, 2019 17:24:51 GMT
I am happy to see so many people realizing the Jon Snow character is stupid. Even one of the writers in the epilogue said something to the effect of, "Jon Snow isn't the sharpest tack in the box."
When I first brought this up last year many posters objected.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Apr 15, 2019 17:25:54 GMT
It's mostly blood and boobs + great production values. Only a person who has never actually seen the show would say that. Because the amount of nudity\boobs\sex\blood and violence is no wear near as much as some people claim, You have an 50 minute episode and they have what 1-2 minute of nudity and people acts like its porn.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Apr 15, 2019 17:26:43 GMT
Geeky stuff sells if it's full of sex and violence. Only a person who has never actually seen the show would say that. Because the amount of nudity\boobs\sex\blood and violence is no wear near as much as some people claim,
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Apr 15, 2019 17:27:21 GMT
Anyway if you don`t like it, than don`t watch it.
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Post by movieliker on Apr 15, 2019 17:29:09 GMT
Anyway if you don`t like it, than don`t watch it. Whoa, whoa, whoa there FO. People have the right to their opinion. And regardless, GoT is one of the most popular TV shows ever.
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Post by bluerisk on Apr 15, 2019 17:29:59 GMT
Ok for years people who loved stuff like DD and Elder Scrolls were looked at like geeks. Now everyone and their sister is watching GoT and thinking it is great. While I have nothing negative to say about the show. It is just odd how popular trends shift. I wonder what causes it, is it just like new people finding out about a great Ice cream that hippers (lol) have known about for years. Or is a change in society. You were as much geeks as Star wars fans, Trekkies or all these Super Hero enthusiasts, and as much as I know there was something called "Lord of the Rings" which was not only a huge success at the box office, but also gained the highest critical acclaim.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Apr 15, 2019 17:30:43 GMT
Anyway if you don`t like it, than don`t watch it. Whoa, whoa, whoa there FO. People have the right to there opinion. And regardless, GoT is one of the most popular TV shows ever. Yes and i have the right to call people who waste there time with things they don`t like morons.
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Post by movieliker on Apr 15, 2019 17:34:42 GMT
Whoa, whoa, whoa there FO. People have the right to their opinion. And regardless, GoT is one of the most popular TV shows ever. Yes and i have the right to call people who waste there time with things they don`t like morons. It is not a waste of time. If the only posters who posted were fans, we would get an unrealistic representation of everyone's opinion. Everybody doesn't like it. And sometimes for good reason.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Apr 15, 2019 18:22:02 GMT
It has to do primarily with a show being good and enjoyed by a lot of people (Far more people do not watch Game of Thrones than watch it though) "Being good" is rarely the reason for such a sensational popularity. There are much better shows which lasted 2 or 3 seasons and never achieved a fraction of GoT's fan-base. Name 5, please.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Apr 15, 2019 18:23:03 GMT
It has to do primarily with a show being good and enjoyed by a lot of people (Far more people do not watch Game of Thrones than watch it though) But DD is good and people still get the side eye for liking it. Only because half of it is you playing with yourself with a bunch of friends.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Apr 15, 2019 18:44:36 GMT
Game of Thrones is popular for a few reasons.
Without repeating other posters, it has things for both the low brow, middle brow and the high brow, for men and women.
Low brow appeal includes the sex and violence.
Middle brow, soap opera/train wreck. You have all these people conniving for power while the greatest existential threat is approaching and nearly all of them are ignorant.
High brow, really well done and well thought out on the nature of power. It takes the normal fantasy conventions and turns them upside down.
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Post by papamihel on Apr 15, 2019 18:50:13 GMT
"Being good" is rarely the reason for such a sensational popularity. There are much better shows which lasted 2 or 3 seasons and never achieved a fraction of GoT's fan-base. Name 5, please. Not sure about 5 but Rome, Deadwood and Carnivale most definitely.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Apr 15, 2019 18:54:50 GMT
If there's one thing that GoT has taught me, it's be careful what you wish for. All us fantasy nerds were always pitching our fave novels to non-fantasy nerds, wanting people to share in the goodness. Then, with Song of Ice and Fire, it actually took hold. Non-fantasy lovers got into it (politics, intrigue, etc.). It became a pop-culture phenomenon. So much so that TV series was offered. Then all of us book lovers got to watch the author abandon the books in favor of the money, and the bandwagon crowd was served while the readers who opened the door in the first place were put on the back burner. I still remember the book lovers WAY back when the series started... "Haha! Don't worry! We're so far ahead, plot wise... he'll definitely finish the book before the series!" Ah, the innocence of the young.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Apr 15, 2019 18:55:31 GMT
Not sure about 5 but Rome, Deadwood and Carnivale most definitely. I've only watched 1 of those (Rome), and will likely try to watch Deadwood before the movie. Rome was a good show, but I still don't see it in the same league as Game of Thrones. Rome did a very good job getting what Rome would feel like and is best described as authentic but not accurate. It always bothered me that in the first ep, they only viewed the loss of an eagle as a symbolic issue. These are people who are much less secular than we are today. They wouldn't view it as merely symbolic loss.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Apr 15, 2019 19:00:52 GMT
If there's one thing that GoT has taught me, it's be careful what you wish for. All us fantasy nerds were always pitching our fave novels to non-fantasy nerds, wanting people to share in the goodness. Then, with Song of Ice and Fire, it actually took hold. Non-fantasy lovers got into it (politics, intrigue, etc.). It became a pop-culture phenomenon. So much so that TV series was offered. Then all of us book lovers got to watch the author abandon the books in favor of the money, and the bandwagon crowd was served while the readers who opened the door in the first place were put on the back burner. I still remember the book lovers WAY back when the series started... "Haha! Don't worry! We're so far ahead, plot wise... he'll definitely finish the book before the series!" Ah, the innocence of the young. I was a big fan of the website, 'Finish the book, George' before the creator stopped updating. Even before the tv series came out, it was obvious Martin was losing interest in the series. Each book became longer, added more tangential characters, and became less focused than the last. The guy became addicted to conventions, often going on numerous ones instead of writing. He also loves doing way too many side projects, like all the books he edits.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 15, 2019 19:03:37 GMT
To quote the Great Man: “never seen it.”
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Post by Cinemachinery on Apr 15, 2019 19:06:19 GMT
If there's one thing that GoT has taught me, it's be careful what you wish for. All us fantasy nerds were always pitching our fave novels to non-fantasy nerds, wanting people to share in the goodness. Then, with Song of Ice and Fire, it actually took hold. Non-fantasy lovers got into it (politics, intrigue, etc.). It became a pop-culture phenomenon. So much so that TV series was offered. Then all of us book lovers got to watch the author abandon the books in favor of the money, and the bandwagon crowd was served while the readers who opened the door in the first place were put on the back burner. I still remember the book lovers WAY back when the series started... "Haha! Don't worry! We're so far ahead, plot wise... he'll definitely finish the book before the series!" Ah, the innocence of the young. I was a big fan of the website, 'Finish the book, George' before the creator stopped updating. Even before the tv series came out, it was obvious Martin was losing interest in the series. Each book became longer, added more tangential characters, and became less focused than the last. The guy became addicted to conventions, often going on numerous ones instead of writing. He also loves doing way too many side projects, like all the books he edits. Actually reminded me of Robert Jordan - the Wheel of Time books started focused, you were waiting on sequels and you had an end in sight. Then each progressive book got more convoluted and covered a shorter span of time (I remember book 7 or so... I finished it and realized the plot covered two days. TWO DAYS. 800+ pages.) Then is became a decalogy... then 13 books... then Jordan died and Sanderson had to finish it. (Which he did with aplomb but still.) But Jordan's problems were unexpected and he REALLY went out of his way to make sure the series could be finished. He always had his fans in mind. Whereas Martin... the guy started acting dickish when fans inevitably continued to ask when the next book would be coming (after the series left the book plot behind). I get that Martin owes no one anything, but he only got where he is because of the book fans. Didn't take him long to forget that.
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