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Post by goz on May 11, 2019 7:57:49 GMT
I will say this simply... The OP only represented a case for one side when there were two sides to this issue. I made people aware of this. I have agreed what the Bishop said was wrong however it was provoked due to the long standing situation in Poland of which people on this thread were unaware. I gave evidence of this and so now people would be able to have a more knowledgeable, informed view about a situation which is both incredibly sensitive AND ongoing. The OP simply posted about a bigot who made an irrational and hateful statement about Jews. Nothing justifies the statement of that Bishop. AJ, I respect your opinions on certain subjects, it appears however, that you know only two things about Polish history, politics and culture... 'Jack' and 'Shit'. I suggest you STFU.
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Post by Aj_June on May 11, 2019 8:00:17 GMT
The OP simply posted about a bigot who made an irrational and hateful statement about Jews. Nothing justifies the statement of that Bishop. AJ, I respect your opinions on certain subjects, it appears however, that you know only two things about Polish history, politics and culture... 'Jack' and 'Shit'. I suggest you STFU. GOZ, I don't respect most of your opinions on most subjects. Keep your stupidity with yourself.
'Jack' and 'Shit'.
I suggest you STFU.
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Post by goz on May 11, 2019 8:04:30 GMT
AJ, I respect your opinions on certain subjects, it appears however, that you know only two things about Polish history, politics and culture... 'Jack' and 'Shit'. I suggest you STFU. GOZ, I don't respect most of your opinions on most subjects. Keep your stupidity with yourself.
'Jack' and 'Shit'.
I suggest you STFU.
Not gonna happen. I suggest you educate yourself more 'generally' before spouting off without any knowledge of a subject.
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Post by Aj_June on May 11, 2019 8:05:26 GMT
GOZ, I don't respect most of your opinions on most subjects. Keep your stupidity with yourself.
'Jack' and 'Shit'.
I suggest you STFU.
Not gonna happen. I suggest you educate yourself more 'generally' before spouting off without any knowledge of a subject. Your suggestions are moronic. I suggest you stop being a hypocrite.
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Post by phludowin on May 11, 2019 8:50:47 GMT
I will say this simply... The OP only represented a case for one side when there were two sides to this issue. Not to mention: The OP just posted a link without offering own thoughts in the OP. In the past weeks I have criticized posters for doing exactly that. Mostly religious fundies. At least on this thread, the OP later offered their opinion. Usually, when there's an argument, and one side uses personal insults and the other side doesn't, I take it as admission that the insulter lost the argument.
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Post by Aj_June on May 11, 2019 9:07:25 GMT
I will say this simply... The OP only represented a case for one side when there were two sides to this issue. Not to mention: The OP just posted a link without offering own thoughts in the OP. In the past weeks I have criticized posters for doing exactly that. Mostly religious fundies. At least on this thread, the OP later offered their opinion. Usually, when there's an argument, and one side uses personal insults and the other side doesn't, I take it as admission that the insulter lost the argument. The OP gave a factual statement by the antisemitic Bishop. He would need to make an argument when he gives a statement in which a Jew gives his subjective opinion of Christians. That's not what is happening in this thread. The article which can be found on many websites including on least biased websites if you do media check reveals a factual statement made by a Catholic Bishop. The OP's thread title perfectly explained his thread. And what was the response of Goz regarding article? That it was a typical religious pissing contest, shedding doubts on the character of OP and questioning whether he was a partisan. Next, you tell me how is it a pissing contest when an article mentions a factual statement made by an antisemitic Bishop of Catholic Church? Especially when that statement has no rational basis?
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Post by Aj_June on May 11, 2019 9:25:52 GMT
Having read that article carefully, I have found several things that are disturbing and from both sides of the argument. I find it disturbing that this article is published by the 'Jewish Press' in an apologist manner. I find it disturbing that the Catholic Church in this article are 'blaming' the Jews in an apologist manner . I have Polish ancestry, a Polish son in law and I have been there several times for fairly extended periods and I notice that it is a country in conflict between young and old, conservatism and liberalism and of course the schism between the Catholic Church and the guilt of what happened to the Jews before and during WW2. In addition, the Polish Catholic bishops are VERY reticent about the alleged sexual abuse, and very secretive, claiming it occurs at very low levels in Poland. Whether this is true or not is difficult to ascertain due to the power of the Church there and the secrecy. Frankly I take this article with a grain of salt as it is really just a pissing match from both sides. Typical religious bigotry really! What's this "both sides of the argument"? There's only one side and there's no argument. Bishop Andrzej Jeż of the city of Tarnów, southeast of Kraków did in fact give an Easter sermon where he denounced some Jewish plot that was created in 1911. According to the Bishop, this Jewish scheme is what's behind the bad media coverage the RCC has received regarding the problem of child sexual abuse by priests. That's what the Jewish Press said and it accurately summarized what the Bishop said. Bishop Jez showed himself to be a liar and a fool. The remarks he attributed to some 1911 Zionist conference were fabricated just as were the Protocols of Zion. If, however, the Bishop's detractors (myself included) are mistaken he should demonstrate the truth stated in whatever 1937 book he used. He should make us look ridiculous while demonstrating what a diligent researcher he is. He won't and he can't because his source is useless, the 1911 remarks were never made, and he's a stupid liar. "I find it disturbing that this article is published by the 'Jewish Press' in an apologist manner." What is that supposed to mean? The Jewish Press report was accurate as far as I can tell. From you perspective, where is some apologist manner distortion in the report? I think they don't understand the meaning of fact vs argument. Your article is stating facts. A person made antisemitic remarks. The article covers it. Instead of addressing that slander on Jews made by the Bishop Goz defames the article itself. Now we have people demanding why the article also doesn't speak about Jews. Are you seriously kidding me? You don't know ways of standard reporting?
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Post by dividavi on May 11, 2019 11:36:32 GMT
What's this "both sides of the argument"? There's only one side and there's no argument. Bishop Andrzej Jeż of the city of Tarnów, southeast of Kraków did in fact give an Easter sermon where he denounced some Jewish plot that was created in 1911. According to the Bishop, this Jewish scheme is what's behind the bad media coverage the RCC has received regarding the problem of child sexual abuse by priests. That's what the Jewish Press said and it accurately summarized what the Bishop said. Bishop Jez showed himself to be a liar and a fool. The remarks he attributed to some 1911 Zionist conference were fabricated just as were the Protocols of Zion. If, however, the Bishop's detractors (myself included) are mistaken he should demonstrate the truth stated in whatever 1937 book he used. He should make us look ridiculous while demonstrating what a diligent researcher he is. He won't and he can't because his source is useless, the 1911 remarks were never made, and he's a stupid liar. "I find it disturbing that this article is published by the 'Jewish Press' in an apologist manner." What is that supposed to mean? The Jewish Press report was accurate as far as I can tell. From you perspective, where is some apologist manner distortion in the report? There are always two (at least) sides to every story. Despite your well-worn adage, no there aren't at least two sides to every story. One party to a dispute is perfectly capable of telling a completely truthful statement while the other parties tell lies or try to divert attention to extraneous matters just as you have done. The Jews are entirely blameless when it comes to child sexual abuse by Catholic priests. The purpose of the Jewish Press publication is to report newsworthy events of relevance to the Jewish community and that's exactly what occurred in this case. The Bishop made a vicious statement with no basis in reality. From that I can infer he's a quite immoral man.I would never use you as a source for anything. Every nation on Earth has some very complex religious and social situations due to a unique history. Several months ago I posted some articles about the stupidity of certain crazy actions by the Tanzanian government. That African republic has a rather fascinating history that I felt no need to mention since it was totally irrelevant to the topic.If it doesn't matter, why then did you ask?Then maybe this IMDB V2.0 should be shut down since there will inevitably be people who post about issues that do no one any good, at least in somebody's estimation. My OP was on topic for this group, it was accurate and your responses say everything about you and nothing about me or the authors of this article.
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Post by Isapop on May 11, 2019 12:56:30 GMT
Having read that article carefully, I have found several things that are disturbing and from both sides of the argument. I find it disturbing that this article is published by the 'Jewish Press' in an apologist manner. I find it disturbing that the Catholic Church in this article are 'blaming' the Jews in an apologist manner . I have Polish ancestry, a Polish son in law and I have been there several times for fairly extended periods and I notice that it is a country in conflict between young and old, conservatism and liberalism and of course the schism between the Catholic Church and the guilt of what happened to the Jews before and during WW2. In addition, the Polish Catholic bishops are VERY reticent about the alleged sexual abuse, and very secretive, claiming it occurs at very low levels in Poland. Whether this is true or not is difficult to ascertain due to the power of the Church there and the secrecy. Frankly I take this article with a grain of salt as it is really just a pissing match from both sides. Typical religious bigotry really! So then, because the Jewish press has a particular interest in reporting what the bishop told his assembly, that creates a moral equivalence between the bishop's libel and the reporting of it, just a pissing match, typical religious bigotry shown on both sides? No, it doesn't. Not at all.
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Post by goz on May 11, 2019 21:12:39 GMT
There are always two (at least) sides to every story. Despite your well-worn adage, no there aren't at least two sides to every story. One party to a dispute is perfectly capable of telling a completely truthful statement while the other parties tell lies or try to divert attention to extraneous matters just as you have done. The Jews are entirely blameless when it comes to child sexual abuse by Catholic priests. The purpose of the Jewish Press publication is to report newsworthy events of relevance to the Jewish community and that's exactly what occurred in this case. The Bishop made a vicious statement with no basis in reality. From that I can infer he's a quite immoral man.I would never use you as a source for anything. Every nation on Earth has some very complex religious and social situations due to a unique history. Several months ago I posted some articles about the stupidity of certain crazy actions by the Tanzanian government. That African republic has a rather fascinating history that I felt no need to mention since it was totally irrelevant to the topic.If it doesn't matter, why then did you ask?Then maybe this IMDB V2.0 should be shut down since there will inevitably be people who post about issues that do no one any good, at least in somebody's estimation. My OP was on topic for this group, it was accurate and your responses say everything about you and nothing about me or the authors of this article. Fact: You posted a partisan piece from a Jewish magazine/newspapre with a slanted viewpoint. This article is cherrypicked to point out the Jewish side of a long and virulent dispute, nay feud between the Jewish community and the Catholic Church ( and the government of Poland ) which has waged for centuries butt has come to the fore after WW2 and more recently with the legislation the new Conservative Government of Poland passed last year. There are definitely two sides to this argument. 1. The bishop was absolutely wrong in what he said, though the history gives him cause to have said it. 2. The Government of Israel (and Polish Jews in Poland) are wrong in claiming that Poles were collaborators with the Nazis in WW2. ...and yes the two are inextricably linked as each side takes swipes at the other, a fact that your summation of the situation failed to point out in context. How dare all you ignorant non-Europeans have a go at me when I make you all aware of the actual situation in Poland. I am indeed non-partisan. You will ALL know how I am critical of Catholics over their non-reporting of paedophilia AND I am far from anti-Semitic, I have been to Auschwitz and to a museum near Lodz where the Jews used to hide in a cellar and one family of six children had to smother their baby to save the others as it started to cry as the Nazis were searching the house.. I am a student of current affairs history and truth. You should educate yourselves and pull your heads in, and not be so gullible to Jewish ( or any other) propaganda.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 21:22:49 GMT
Despite your well-worn adage, no there aren't at least two sides to every story. One party to a dispute is perfectly capable of telling a completely truthful statement while the other parties tell lies or try to divert attention to extraneous matters just as you have done. The Jews are entirely blameless when it comes to child sexual abuse by Catholic priests. The purpose of the Jewish Press publication is to report newsworthy events of relevance to the Jewish community and that's exactly what occurred in this case. The Bishop made a vicious statement with no basis in reality. From that I can infer he's a quite immoral man.I would never use you as a source for anything. Every nation on Earth has some very complex religious and social situations due to a unique history. Several months ago I posted some articles about the stupidity of certain crazy actions by the Tanzanian government. That African republic has a rather fascinating history that I felt no need to mention since it was totally irrelevant to the topic.If it doesn't matter, why then did you ask?Then maybe this IMDB V2.0 should be shut down since there will inevitably be people who post about issues that do no one any good, at least in somebody's estimation. My OP was on topic for this group, it was accurate and your responses say everything about you and nothing about me or the authors of this article. Fact: You posted a partisan piece from a Jewish magazine/newspapre with a slanted viewpoint. This article is cherrypicked to point out the Jewish side of a long and virulent dispute, nay feud between the Jewish community and the Catholic Church ( and the government of Poland ) which has waged for centuries butt has come to the fore after WW2 and more recently with the legislation the new Conservative Government of Poland passed last year. There are definitely two sides to this argument. 1. The bishop was absolutely wrong in what he said, though the history gives him cause to have said it. 2. The Government of Israel (and Polish Jews in Poland) are wrong in claiming that Poles were collaborators with the Nazis in WW2. ...and yes the two are inextricably linked as each side takes swipes at the other, a fact that your summation of the situation failed to point out in context. How dare all you ignorant non-Europeans have a go at me when I make you all aware of the actual situation in Poland. I am indeed non-partisan. You will ALL know how I am critical of Catholics over their non-reporting of paedophilia AND I am far from anti-Semitic, I have been to Auschwitz and to a museum near Lodz where the Jews used to hide in a cellar and one family of six children had to smother their baby to save the others as it started to cry as the Nazis were searching the house.. I am a student of current affairs history and truth. Educate should yourselves and pull your heads in, and not be so gullible to Jewish ( or any other) propaganda. You just have to accept it... as religions go, Jews and Catholics aren't exactly best buds.
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Post by goz on May 11, 2019 21:26:07 GMT
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Post by Pangolin on May 11, 2019 21:38:54 GMT
The actual question is why this media coverage of abuse scandals within the church has been so strong in the last few decades, especially since many cases are very old and the accusers aren't "children", but old people (non Catholic children's homes and schools had horrible conditions, too, if you go back to the 1950s). It's hard to believe that it isn't part of a scheme to undermine western culture, similar as these constant bickering about "white people" in the US of A.
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Post by progressiveelement on May 11, 2019 22:27:52 GMT
With thorough analysis, one must conclude that said Polish bishop is an asshole.
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Post by goz on May 12, 2019 3:03:18 GMT
With thorough analysis, one must conclude that said Polish bishop is an asshole.
Then so is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who went to visit Warsaw and said: 'No-one disputes that the Poles co-operated with the Nazis' to the horror of the polish Government and people. As a world leader he should have known better.
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Post by goz on May 12, 2019 3:55:26 GMT
Fact: You posted a partisan piece from a Jewish magazine/newspapre with a slanted viewpoint. This article is cherrypicked to point out the Jewish side of a long and virulent dispute, nay feud between the Jewish community and the Catholic Church ( and the government of Poland ) which has waged for centuries butt has come to the fore after WW2 and more recently with the legislation the new Conservative Government of Poland passed last year. There are definitely two sides to this argument. 1. The bishop was absolutely wrong in what he said, though the history gives him cause to have said it. 2. The Government of Israel (and Polish Jews in Poland) are wrong in claiming that Poles were collaborators with the Nazis in WW2. ...and yes the two are inextricably linked as each side takes swipes at the other, a fact that your summation of the situation failed to point out in context. How dare all you ignorant non-Europeans have a go at me when I make you all aware of the actual situation in Poland. I am indeed non-partisan. You will ALL know how I am critical of Catholics over their non-reporting of paedophilia AND I am far from anti-Semitic, I have been to Auschwitz and to a museum near Lodz where the Jews used to hide in a cellar and one family of six children had to smother their baby to save the others as it started to cry as the Nazis were searching the house.. I am a student of current affairs history and truth. Educate should yourselves and pull your heads in, and not be so gullible to Jewish ( or any other) propaganda. You just have to accept it... as religions go, Jews and Catholics aren't exactly best buds. I DO accept it, however I do not accept the partisan taking of sides in a complex international ethnic and religious situation with the propaganda of one side or the other being accept as 'gospel'. It reminds me of all that went on in the 'troubles' in your nation where it was 'tit for tat' and NOT just in words. There are some worrying forces at work in the world which are reminiscent of the 1930's and I don't like it. Religious extremism, neo-fascism, neo-nationalism, right wing Conservatism and religious terrorism. It is IMPERATIVE that we discern from reliable sources what promotes the truth, history and fairness to such disputes. THIS ( of all the other worrying things about Trump) to me is the MOST important. ABSOLUTE freedom of the press and accountability for the written and spoken words by our leaders in all spheres AND the intellectual pursuit of knowledge to be able to understand the history and complexities of such disputes and their relevance to our modern world.
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Post by goz on May 12, 2019 3:57:34 GMT
Having read that article carefully, I have found several things that are disturbing and from both sides of the argument. I find it disturbing that this article is published by the 'Jewish Press' in an apologist manner. I find it disturbing that the Catholic Church in this article are 'blaming' the Jews in an apologist manner . I have Polish ancestry, a Polish son in law and I have been there several times for fairly extended periods and I notice that it is a country in conflict between young and old, conservatism and liberalism and of course the schism between the Catholic Church and the guilt of what happened to the Jews before and during WW2. In addition, the Polish Catholic bishops are VERY reticent about the alleged sexual abuse, and very secretive, claiming it occurs at very low levels in Poland. Whether this is true or not is difficult to ascertain due to the power of the Church there and the secrecy. Frankly I take this article with a grain of salt as it is really just a pissing match from both sides. Typical religious bigotry really! So then, because the Jewish press has a particular interest in reporting what the bishop told his assembly, that creates a moral equivalence between the bishop's libel and the reporting of it, just a pissing match, typical religious bigotry shown on both sides? No, it doesn't. Not at all.
What caused the Bishop to make those claims?
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Post by dividavi on May 12, 2019 5:05:06 GMT
Despite your well-worn adage, no there aren't at least two sides to every story. One party to a dispute is perfectly capable of telling a completely truthful statement while the other parties tell lies or try to divert attention to extraneous matters just as you have done. The Jews are entirely blameless when it comes to child sexual abuse by Catholic priests. The purpose of the Jewish Press publication is to report newsworthy events of relevance to the Jewish community and that's exactly what occurred in this case. The Bishop made a vicious statement with no basis in reality. From that I can infer he's a quite immoral man.I would never use you as a source for anything. Every nation on Earth has some very complex religious and social situations due to a unique history. Several months ago I posted some articles about the stupidity of certain crazy actions by the Tanzanian government. That African republic has a rather fascinating history that I felt no need to mention since it was totally irrelevant to the topic.If it doesn't matter, why then did you ask?Then maybe this IMDB V2.0 should be shut down since there will inevitably be people who post about issues that do no one any good, at least in somebody's estimation. My OP was on topic for this group, it was accurate and your responses say everything about you and nothing about me or the authors of this article. Fact: You posted a partisan piece from a Jewish magazine/newspapre with a slanted viewpoint. The article accurately reported what this lying Bishop said. He said that the there was a Jewish plot, initiated in 1911, to slander the RCC and the recent cases of child abuse were a result of this scheme. By the way, you don't seem to know the difference between fact and opinion just as you don't understand the meanings of the words disingenuous and apologist. The article factually summarized the embarrassing parts of the Bishop's sermon. He now regrets having made those comments but he said them and he'll have to live with it. Other Catholic Bishops aren't as stupid, at least I hope not. If they are, they can expect to be humiliated when their speeches get media attention.The article from JP reported the stupid remarks of this Bishop. You're trying to deflect from what the article said in order to defend what this stupid prelate said. Child molesting within the RCC is a Catholic problem, not a Jewish one, and this man shouldn't have tried to spread the blame to others. Thank God for youtube.
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Post by dividavi on May 12, 2019 5:39:11 GMT
The actual question is why this media coverage of abuse scandals within the church has been so strong in the last few decades, especially since many cases are very old and the accusers aren't "children", but old people (non Catholic children's homes and schools had horrible conditions, too, if you go back to the 1950s). It's hard to believe that it isn't part of a scheme to undermine western culture, similar as these constant bickering about "white people" in the US of A. Another actual question that must be asked and maybe answered is this: Why didn't the media cover child sex abuse in religious schools and settings until about 40 years ago? It didn't start in 1980, so why was there no outrage in 1950, 1920 or earlier? My answer is that people in previous eras really weren't all that moral and that people didn't care where the pastor stuck his dick - as long as he was discrete and kept it secret. No, this isn't part of a scheme to undermine western culture. At least I hope not, because if it is western culture should perish from this planet. Like I said, this isn't a new phenomenon, just something ancient that people wanted to pretend didn't exist. By the way, Tarnowski Bishop Andrzej Jeż has issued what may be termed an apology or an explanation for his bullshit speech that brought him fame. Here it is.If you want to read it in the original Polish, click on here: www.diecezja.tarnow.pl/index.php/wiadomosci/pola/item/6732-oswiadczenie-biskupa-tarnowskiego-andrzeja-jeza-w-zwiazku-publikacjami-dotyczacymi-tegorocznej-wielkoczwartkowej-homilii?fbclid=IwAR3s_rUrkxQACt5NgF6nmNbvlZt1uRb2VLDefKvzyHal6HzpOo0zUXcRqjYHere's what somebody on Facebook said:
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Post by Pangolin on May 12, 2019 13:35:38 GMT
The actual question is why this media coverage of abuse scandals within the church has been so strong in the last few decades, especially since many cases are very old and the accusers aren't "children", but old people (non Catholic children's homes and schools had horrible conditions, too, if you go back to the 1950s). It's hard to believe that it isn't part of a scheme to undermine western culture, similar as these constant bickering about "white people" in the US of A. Another actual question that must be asked and maybe answered is this: Why didn't the media cover child sex abuse in religious schools and settings until about 40 years ago? It didn't start in 1980, so why was there no outrage in 1950, 1920 or earlier? My answer is that people in previous eras really weren't all that moral and that people didn't care where the pastor stuck his dick - as long as he was discrete and kept it secret. There were many taboos for the media in the past - just look, for example, how tame many old movies used to be regarding nudity, graphic violence etc. A lot of news stories these days, especially in the British media (Daily Mail, The Sun, Daily Mirror), feed their readers with a crude mixture of information and voyeuristic entertainment. Sensationalist reporting become more and more common, see also the enormous media attention for the accusations against Michael Jackson in 2019 or the #metoo-movement in the last few years. I means it's very ironic that people from Hollywood, who patted themselves on the back while giving the movie "Spotlight" two Oscars in 2016, already got in the spotlight themselves regarding accusations of sexual wrongdoings just a year later and in 2018 it was one of the leading #metoo-activists, who got accused of molesting a minor. Btw, the media could also tarnish the reputation of Buddhism by pointing at the fact that the Samurai in Japan copied their pederasty from Buddhist monks. But I guess there's not a strong agenda against Buddhism (yet). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexual_orientation#Japanese_BuddhismWell, in the example, I mentioned earlier, it clearly was part of a strategy to hinder the Roman Catholic Church from being able to indoctrinate the Germany's youth of the 1930s as the Nazis wanted to be only ones, who could do that. And as I sad, presenting very old cases from decades ago as "top news" looks suspicious to me. I think all followers of religions, who act as if the circumcision of boys is totally normal and acceptable, should maybe be bit careful, if they want to jump the bandwagon and join the fashionable bashing of the Roman Catholic Church. Like I've seen lot of Muslims joining this part of modern outrage culture (a very western kind of thing) - which they don't want to do, when it's about their own religion, of course. But Catholics should say "mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!" all day I suppose. There's definitely also folks, who display Schadenfreude, when they talk about these cases - very inappropriate, if one is truly against abuse. With Muslims it's also obvious that they suffer from people calling Mohammed a "pedo prophet", so it's a sort of distraction.
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