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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 17, 2019 0:14:46 GMT
I'm not being combative. I'm sharing my opinion. I have nothing to be angry about. This film series is nearly over and I'm not the one spending time justifying performance. In my opinion, Dark Phoenix was an abject failure which could and should have been better. All Fox has done is make it harder for this story to be adapted further down the line with audiences who will feel it's been done to death. Truth be told, this film should have never been made. This is honestly how I feel. I want the MCU to treat the Phoenix storyline like they did with Uncle Ben and Spider-Man's origin. Just skip it. I don't need to see this storyline done again. I honestly didn't need to see it attempted a 2nd time. There are plenty of other X-Men story's that the MCU can use. I don't think anybody needs a Phoenix storyline for a good 20 years. And that's what pisses me off the most. The decision to revisit Dark Phoenix was driven purely by avarice and arrogance. "Oh, I know, let's make the next one a "quiet character study" --- based on the most bombastic, galaxy-spanning storyline in the history of the IP."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 0:19:53 GMT
This is honestly how I feel. I want the MCU to treat the Phoenix storyline like they did with Uncle Ben and Spider-Man's origin. Just skip it. I don't need to see this storyline done again. I honestly didn't need to see it attempted a 2nd time. There are plenty of other X-Men story's that the MCU can use. I don't think anybody needs a Phoenix storyline for a good 20 years.And that's what pisses me off the most. The decision to revisit Dark Phoenix was driven purely by avarice and arrogance. "Oh, I know, let's make the next one a "quiet character study" --- based on the most bombastic, galaxy-spanning storyline in the history of the IP." Has there ever been like a Silver Surfer/Phoenix cross over in the comics? Like, maybe down the road the MCU introduces a Silver Surfer solo film and we get a sight or a mention of the Phoenix force or whatever it's called these days. That way we at least know it exists but would also not be in this huge hurry to implement it yet. Let there be a few X-Men movies where the audience at least gets a chance to connect to these characters before throwing it in. Treat it like Thanos, a long slow build to it. That way we're not really getting it until 10-15 years from now.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 17, 2019 0:47:40 GMT
And that's what pisses me off the most. The decision to revisit Dark Phoenix was driven purely by avarice and arrogance. "Oh, I know, let's make the next one a "quiet character study" --- based on the most bombastic, galaxy-spanning storyline in the history of the IP." Has there ever been like a Silver Surfer/Phoenix cross over in the comics? Like, maybe down the road the MCU introduces a Silver Surfer solo film and we get a sight or a mention of the Phoenix force or whatever it's called these days. That way we at least know it exists but would also not be in this huge hurry to implement it yet. Let there be a few X-Men movies where the audience at least gets a chance to connect to these characters before throwing it in. Treat it like Thanos, a long slow build to it. That way we're not really getting it until 10-15 years from now. Not that I know of but, that's not a bad idea. Maybe Fantastic Four could be used as a vehicle to explore one of the Phoenix Force's previous hosts to (RE) introduce the concept. The X-Men could easily take up a 10-year arc and 9 to 12 films in the MCU. It has to start with the #ClassicFive (spread the hashtag). Disney will get pinged for "lack of diversity" but, there is no other way. No race bending, no gender swapping, no bullshit --- just the uncanny, classic five in a modern context. From there, we can go All New, All Different.
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Post by Vassaggo on Jun 17, 2019 1:26:02 GMT
Has there ever been like a Silver Surfer/Phoenix cross over in the comics? Like, maybe down the road the MCU introduces a Silver Surfer solo film and we get a sight or a mention of the Phoenix force or whatever it's called these days. That way we at least know it exists but would also not be in this huge hurry to implement it yet. Let there be a few X-Men movies where the audience at least gets a chance to connect to these characters before throwing it in. Treat it like Thanos, a long slow build to it. That way we're not really getting it until 10-15 years from now. Not that I know of but, that's not a bad idea. Maybe Fantastic Four could be used as a vehicle to explore one of the Phoenix Force's previous hosts to (RE) introduce the concept. The X-Men could easily take up a 10-year arc and 9 to 12 films in the MCU. It has to start with the #ClassicFive (spread the hashtag). Disney will get pinged for "lack of diversity" but, there is no other way. No race bending, no gender swapping, no bullshit --- just the uncanny, classic five in a modern context. From there, we can go All New, All Different. I have a feeling they are going to jump to the International Team from the mid 70's on for that specific reason.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 17, 2019 1:47:11 GMT
dazz Vassaggo Lord Death Man ThatGuy About the Phoenix thing: it’s basically Chris Claremont’s interpretation of the “Phoenix”. Phoenix was just a codename after Jean reaches her full potential as psychic that was unlocked by a nameless primal force that bonded. The Phoenix aura is a natural part of Jean and it was something that her daughter Rachel developed without the need of bonding with a cosmic entity. With all due respect, I don't have to read the original comic book series to understand its film adaptation and whatever explanation provided by 'Dark Phoenix' was half-@$$ed. No, you don’t need to read it. They established twice in the series that the fiery aura was psychic energy that was a part her mutation. The cosmic entity is never once referred to as the “Phoenix Force” and doesn’t even resemble a Phoenix at all. With all due respect, I don't have to read the original comic book series to understand its film adaptation and whatever explanation provided by 'Dark Phoenix' was half-@$$ed. blockbusted , you're coming off as combative. Where is your unsubstantiated, insider anecdote that defends this film's current dire situation at the box office? If you go by the RT audience score, DP currently has a D. That's a passing grade - nothing less than what THEE quintessential X-Men story deserves. Don't worry, someone is going to leak the two-parter storyboards online, and the studio, filmmakers and, the actors will be completely vindicated. Mocking me now? Okay, you’re definitely being combative and you also basically admitted it. Yeah, it was filmed two summers ago. You’re coming off as a little combative. I think it is mediocre rather than okay and that it should have been better. I’m saying just that you shouldn’t fault them for not making a proper finale for the series. I'm not being combative. I'm sharing my opinion. I have nothing to be angry about. This film series is nearly over and I'm not the one spending time justifying performance. In my opinion, Dark Phoenix was an abject failure which could and should have been better. All Fox has done is make it harder for this story to be adapted further down the line with audiences who will feel it's been done to death. Truth be told, this film should have never been made. This is honestly how I feel. I want the MCU to treat the Phoenix storyline like they did with Uncle Ben and Spider-Man's origin. Just skip it. I don't need to see this storyline done again. I honestly didn't need to see it attempted a 2nd time. There are plenty of other X-Men story's that the MCU can use. I don't think anybody needs a Phoenix storyline for a good 20 years. And that's what pisses me off the most. The decision to revisit Dark Phoenix was driven purely by avarice and arrogance. "Oh, I know, let's make the next one a "quiet character study" --- based on the most bombastic, galaxy-spanning storyline in the history of the IP." I understand your disappointment but you need to relax. These are just movies.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 17, 2019 2:25:47 GMT
With all due respect, I don't have to read the original comic book series to understand its film adaptation and whatever explanation provided by 'Dark Phoenix' was half-@$$ed. No, you don’t need to read it. They established twice in the series that the fiery aura was psychic energy that was a part her mutation. The cosmic entity is never once referred to as the “Phoenix Force” and doesn’t even resemble a Phoenix at all. blockbusted , you're coming off as combative. Where is your unsubstantiated, insider anecdote that defends this film's current dire situation at the box office? If you go by the RT audience score, DP currently has a D. That's a passing grade - nothing less than what THEE quintessential X-Men story deserves. Don't worry, someone is going to leak the two-parter storyboards online, and the studio, filmmakers and, the actors will be completely vindicated. Mocking me now? Okay, you’re definitely being combative and you also basically admitted it. I'm not being combative. I'm sharing my opinion. I have nothing to be angry about. This film series is nearly over and I'm not the one spending time justifying performance. In my opinion, Dark Phoenix was an abject failure which could and should have been better. All Fox has done is make it harder for this story to be adapted further down the line with audiences who will feel it's been done to death. Truth be told, this film should have never been made. And that's what pisses me off the most. The decision to revisit Dark Phoenix was driven purely by avarice and arrogance. "Oh, I know, let's make the next one a "quiet character study" --- based on the most bombastic, galaxy-spanning storyline in the history of the IP." I understand your disappointment but you need to relax. These are just movies. There's a difference between being combative and being adversarial. I stand in stark opposition to your views and, I'm also managing to have some fun while doing it. Don't play the victim while you also simultaneously play the white knight. Too much for one person to do. Me? I'm just playing the villain. And I don't "need" to do anything but die one day at a ripe old age - thanks for your input though.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 17, 2019 2:29:56 GMT
Not that I know of but, that's not a bad idea. Maybe Fantastic Four could be used as a vehicle to explore one of the Phoenix Force's previous hosts to (RE) introduce the concept. The X-Men could easily take up a 10-year arc and 9 to 12 films in the MCU. It has to start with the #ClassicFive (spread the hashtag). Disney will get pinged for "lack of diversity" but, there is no other way. No race bending, no gender swapping, no bullshit --- just the uncanny, classic five in a modern context. From there, we can go All New, All Different. I have a feeling they are going to jump to the International Team from the mid 70's on for that specific reason. Jumping to AN/AD would be a missed opportunity in my view; however, there is a way they could make it work. If they start at the point were Scott and Xavier are recruiting the new team to resue the old team from Krakoa. That would mean that the #ClassicFive never had an extensive career as superheroes but, I could live with any scenario where they exist or once existed as a team.
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Post by ThatGuy on Jun 17, 2019 11:23:29 GMT
I think they should have left it on the 1st entry cliffhanger. Just make the movie as it was intended to be and not worry about what comes after. But, then again, you have people crying about how the MCU aren't self-contained stories. Why isn't this movie a self-contained story that is open-ended like they claim these movies are? Why did they have to change it so much to butcher it? And I thought they only changed the third act. What about the rest of the movie? It was originally more character driven with Scott and Jean’s relationship having a major focus. They edited a lot of character driven scenes from what I’ve heard. Edited? How long was the movie before? Thought they only did reshoots for the third act.
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Post by ThatGuy on Jun 17, 2019 11:30:46 GMT
What I mean is to move the molecules in the air to create friction enough to make fire or electricity. Also, I remember they started using the term psychokinetic for those that went past being a regular telekinetic or telepath. Usually the stronger characters like Jean, Legion and Nate Grey.
Yes, those are specific terms categorizing what they can do. What I was saying was how they can do it. And notice I said the characters create themes for themselves. Take the mutate Spider-man for instance. He's more themed as an insect and not really a human spider. He doesn't create webbing or stick to walls like a spider. His sticking to walls is more a tactile telekinetic ability. It's a mental ability that allows him to adhere to a service on any part of his body (he can subconsciously make his mask stick to his face). And he got these powers after seeing a spider bite him. Rogue is nervous about kissing a boy and was probably wondering what he was thinking. Gets a power where she takes the mind of a person she touches. Tactile telepathy. The characters are all themed because it would be boring if they all were basic telekinetics and/or telepaths.
And Storm doesn't just change weather patterns. She can shoot lightning from her hands. Even make electricity in her eyes. She can fly by moving the wind around her. Hell, she can actually move things by making a tornado under it. She can create ice by freezing the air. She's creating those elements. Not just manipulating Earth's magnetic field. If she knew how to control her powers down to the base telekinetic level, she'd be the most powerful character in Marvel. But then doing that takes away from the theme of her powers.
Storms direct manipulation of lightning is a poor implementation of what should be an indirect manipulation of plasma energy. Most of that was done by writers who were desperate to ship her with Thor. Thor creates, absorbs and redirects lightning. That's not really weather control, it's energy manipulation. And that's her mutant power: a theme.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Jun 17, 2019 11:39:26 GMT
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Jun 17, 2019 11:45:07 GMT
"We heard that in one cut, Jean Grey dies, which wasn’t received well. But overall, the major ending change-up, executed in reshoots, entailed going from an intimate ending with Jean Grey (Sophie Turner), Tye Sheridan (Cyclops), and Charles Xavier (James McAvoy) against Jessica Chastain’s Vuk. The feeling from the audience in testing was that they wanted to see all the X-Men heroes fighting in the end. There have been reports out there that the ending was changed-up because it was too similar to Captain Marvel. This isn’t true: No one on the Fox/Dark Phoenix production side had any intel of what Captain Marvel would be like before it was released. It was the all-team reshoot that pushed Dark Phoenix from its original Nov. 2 release date (which went to ultimate 4-time Oscar winner and Fox blockbuster finale pre-merger Bohemian Rhapsody) to Feb. 14. We understand Kinberg got to make the film he wanted to make, and was flexible about reshoots with the studio. Many would like to feasibly blame a screenwriter-turned-first time $200M production film director on missing the mark here. However, as we wrote, Kinberg demonstrated his finesse in saving previous Fox/Marvel and X-Men productions. Fox production executives could have gone with a more seasoned director, but decided not to, and in doing so, they failed in riding herd on Kinberg early enough. By the time they did decided to ride monitor Kinberg, it was too late, and production was too far down the road."
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Jun 17, 2019 12:21:45 GMT
I haven't seen the movie yet so this is just what I would have done is have Jean somehow connected to the phoenix force, which is why she manifest's the phoenix with her untapped powers, and when she used her full abilities to kill Apocalypse this sort of summoned the Phoenix force as it sensed her power through the galaxy, this explains why it never appears in the original timeline as Jean never used her powers to this degree until just before she died, which also justifies it never appearing after as it sensed Jean's death at the end.
This would directly tie Dark Phoenix into Apocalypse and make it mean more, so Jean's world saving actions in one lead to the drama of the next film and then if you have Jean take control of the power and die or leave you know whatever you do to make her save the day you make this a 2 part story kind of deal, and would tie into from what I hear Xaviers story is, with the road to hell is paved with good intentions idea behind both of their stories and the different outcomes that can arise from it.
That reasoning might be even better. It's still lots of mental gymnastics you have to do to make what you see in Apocalypse to what happens in Dark Phoenix. And it's all on you because they don't explain it. Instead of her always having fire like abilities along with telekinesis/telepath. (like Lord Death Man says she's never had pyro abilities herself). Have her always have a mental link with the phoenix force, but the connection doesn't strengthen complete until letting go in Apocalypse. The completed link brings the phoenix force to her physically. And it takes like a decade to get to earth. Edit: What we see in Apocalypse is the mental projection of the Phoenix Force when she completes the Mental Link. That draws the Force to her and the Physical bonding happens in Dark Phoenix. All of this is just justification. We shouldn't have to do it, but oh well. The comic book continuity is MESSY as hell, especially when coming to the crappy "Phoenix Force" concept they added later on in order to launch the redundant and shoddy X-Factor title. In the Foxverse, original timeline(s), "PHOENIX" was the alternate personality of Jean Grey - generated by Xavier's heavy mental blocks over the years. In the original timeline, Jean ALREADY displayed the "firebird energy signature", because that is his natural mutant power. Period. "The Last Stand" established it, canonically. Like it or not. There are several hints in X2 too, however. In the new timeline, she never developed an alternate personality, because Xavier's mental blocks were VERY limited. He just suppressed the memories of the car incident and her father's refusal/repulsion. She absorbed the "shapeless" Cosmic Force, and the Force became one with her and her Phoenix power. That's it. She did not develop any alternate personality, but she was driven "insane/out of control" by this unlimited, infinite power. Much more in line with Claremont's continuity and original intent back in the seventies, right? Right. She is Phoenix. She has been Phoenix since "Apocalypse" occurred. Case closed.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 17, 2019 23:47:43 GMT
It was originally more character driven with Scott and Jean’s relationship having a major focus. They edited a lot of character driven scenes from what I’ve heard. Edited? How long was the movie before? Thought they only did reshoots for the third act. Well over two hours. Even after the reshoots there was an extended 2 and a half hour version that had a private screening back in November. Apparently, Fox trimmed it to under 2 hours to get more screenings as they were in a panic.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jun 19, 2019 13:41:48 GMT
$205,548,940
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Post by darkpast on Jun 20, 2019 21:43:18 GMT
Disney dropping almost half the theaters this weekend for Toy Story 4, ouch
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Post by scabab on Jun 20, 2019 22:35:15 GMT
Disney dropping almost half the theaters this weekend for Toy Story 4, ouch Where'd you hear that? I'm interested in what kind of theatre drop it'll have. Godzilla just lost 900 theatres and that had a much better theatre average than what X-Men has.
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Post by darkpast on Jun 20, 2019 22:39:14 GMT
Disney dropping almost half the theaters this weekend for Toy Story 4, ouch Where'd you hear that? I'm interested in what kind of theatre drop it'll have. Godzilla just lost 900 theatres and that had a much better theatre average than what X-Men has.
> DECLINING 10 3 Dark Phoenix Fox 2,054 -1,667 -44.8%
Disney had to book more theaters for TS4, WB had nothing better to book
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Post by scabab on Jun 20, 2019 23:01:05 GMT
Oh I'd checked that Box Mojo link a couple hours ago and it only mentioned a few movies, that all happened quickly then. That's a big theatre drop. According to this page, no movie that's even opened in more than 3,600 theatres has dropped that much before. www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/theaterdrops.htmThis could have a third weekend below $4 million.
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Post by Vassaggo on Jun 21, 2019 3:26:42 GMT
I thought it would under perform because of all the reasons we've talked about before, but I never thought it would crater like this.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 22, 2019 5:42:20 GMT
This is honestly how I feel. I want the MCU to treat the Phoenix storyline like they did with Uncle Ben and Spider-Man's origin. Just skip it. I don't need to see this storyline done again. I honestly didn't need to see it attempted a 2nd time. There are plenty of other X-Men story's that the MCU can use. I don't think anybody needs a Phoenix storyline for a good 20 years.And that's what pisses me off the most. The decision to revisit Dark Phoenix was driven purely by avarice and arrogance. "Oh, I know, let's make the next one a "quiet character study" --- based on the most bombastic, galaxy-spanning storyline in the history of the IP." After rewatching the movie, they technically didn’t revisit Dark Phoenix... the movie was about Jean NOT becoming Dark Phoenix again. Just like how Days of Future Past was about Raven NOT becoming Mystique. Both films basically have the same opening and closing narration about evolving beyond a destined fate.
The worse thing Jean does is accidentally kills someone and regrets that action. She never really crosses the line and goes on a dark path.
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