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Post by Sarge on Mar 20, 2023 21:11:54 GMT
Probably loafing around the house, a disappointment to his parents. Do not equate Our Lord Jesus - or any other Jewish person growing up in First Century Palestine - with the teenagers & young adults of today (particularly those in North America). As with all all Jewish young men in first Century Palestine, Our Lord Jesus Followed in His adoptive father's trade (carpentry). He wasn't doing anything worthy of remembrance. BTW, Matthew and Luke include Joseph in Jesus' genealogy showing that he was Jesus' biological father. Ironically, Matthew and Luke also contrarily claim Jesus was born of a virgin meaning he was not descended from David. The authors really screwed that up. The virgin birth is not mentioned by Mark, John, Peter, or Paul and as far as we know wasn't part of the early church doctrine, almost certainly being a mistranslation into Greek. One of many alterations and fabrications in the New Testament.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 20, 2023 21:34:15 GMT
Do not equate Our Lord Jesus - or any other Jewish person growing up in First Century Palestine - with the teenagers & young adults of today (particularly those in North America). As with all all Jewish young men in first Century Palestine, Our Lord Jesus Followed in His adoptive father's trade (carpentry). He wasn't doing anything worthy of remembrance. BTW, Matthew and Luke include Joseph in Jesus' genealogy showing that he was Jesus' biological father. Ironically, Matthew and Luke also contrarily claim Jesus was born of a virgin meaning he was not descended from David. The authors really screwed that up. The virgin birth is not mentioned by Mark, John, Peter, or Paul and as far as we know wasn't part of the early church doctrine, almost certainly being a mistranslation into Greek. One of many alterations and fabrications in the New Testament. In fact Jesus HAS to be born of earthly parents for his sacrifice to make sense, what is the value of essentially an alien (if he had 0 human biology) dying for our sins, Jesus was the son of God spiritually, he was physically the son of Mary and Joseph (unless of course Joseph really did think it was a virgin birth).
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Post by clusium on Mar 20, 2023 22:55:56 GMT
Do not equate Our Lord Jesus - or any other Jewish person growing up in First Century Palestine - with the teenagers & young adults of today (particularly those in North America). As with all all Jewish young men in first Century Palestine, Our Lord Jesus Followed in His adoptive father's trade (carpentry). He wasn't doing anything worthy of remembrance. BTW, Matthew and Luke include Joseph in Jesus' genealogy showing that he was Jesus' biological father. Ironically, Matthew and Luke also contrarily claim Jesus was born of a virgin meaning he was not descended from David. The authors really screwed that up. The virgin birth is not mentioned by Mark, John, Peter, or Paul and as far as we know wasn't part of the early church doctrine, almost certainly being a mistranslation into Greek. One of many alterations and fabrications in the New Testament. St. Matthew's genealogy showed that St. Joseph was Our Lord's Adoptive father; St. Luke's genealogy traces Our Lady's Ancestry. The other 2 Gospels do not mention the Nativity. That is all. However, St. John's Gospel a)acknowledges that the Messiah was Prophesied to be Born in Bethlehem (St. John chapter 7, verse 42), & b)indicates that Our Lord was Conceived ahead of Our Lady & St. Joseph's wedding day (St. John chapter 8 verse 41). St. John also alludes to the Virgin Birth in Revelation chapter 12. Likewise, St. Paul also indicates it in Galatians chapter 4. And if Our Lord Jesus Did nothing Worthy of remembrance, why did Flavius Josephus write about Him in his Antiquities? Also, Our Lord Jesus was written about in the Babylonian Talmud?
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Post by clusium on Mar 20, 2023 22:58:30 GMT
He wasn't doing anything worthy of remembrance. BTW, Matthew and Luke include Joseph in Jesus' genealogy showing that he was Jesus' biological father. Ironically, Matthew and Luke also contrarily claim Jesus was born of a virgin meaning he was not descended from David. The authors really screwed that up. The virgin birth is not mentioned by Mark, John, Peter, or Paul and as far as we know wasn't part of the early church doctrine, almost certainly being a mistranslation into Greek. One of many alterations and fabrications in the New Testament. In fact Jesus HAS to be born of earthly parents for his sacrifice to make sense, what is the value of essentially an alien (if he had 0 human biology) dying for our sins, Jesus was the son of God spiritually, he was physically the son of Mary and Joseph (unless of course Joseph really did think it was a virgin birth). Mary only. Neither St. Joseph, nor any other man was Our Lord's biological father. Otherwise, Jesus Being the Son Of God, would be no different than us all being sons & daughters Of God.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 21, 2023 0:27:25 GMT
In fact Jesus HAS to be born of earthly parents for his sacrifice to make sense, what is the value of essentially an alien (if he had 0 human biology) dying for our sins, Jesus was the son of God spiritually, he was physically the son of Mary and Joseph (unless of course Joseph really did think it was a virgin birth). Mary only. Neither St. Joseph, nor any other man was Our Lord's biological father. Otherwise, Jesus Being the Son Of God, would be no different than us all being sons & daughters Of God. I love that you get it, and then you reject it. Jesus must be human for his sacrifice to make sense
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Post by general313 on Mar 21, 2023 0:48:19 GMT
Mary only. Neither St. Joseph, nor any other man was Our Lord's biological father. Otherwise, Jesus Being the Son Of God, would be no different than us all being sons & daughters Of God. I love that you get it, and then you reject it. Jesus must be human for his sacrifice to make senseTo be honest, it doesn't make sense to me either way.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 0:55:14 GMT
Mary only. Neither St. Joseph, nor any other man was Our Lord's biological father. Otherwise, Jesus Being the Son Of God, would be no different than us all being sons & daughters Of God. I love that you get it, and then you reject it. Jesus must be human for his sacrifice to make sense No, you're the one who seems to be missing the point. In fact, when you quoted me the second time, you left out a key word: OTHERWISE.... The Lord Jesus Had a DUAL NATURE. One that Is Human, & One that Is Divine. He Received His Humanity From His Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. He Had His Divinity From Being Part Of the Triune God.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 21, 2023 1:01:09 GMT
He wasn't doing anything worthy of remembrance. BTW, Matthew and Luke include Joseph in Jesus' genealogy showing that he was Jesus' biological father. Ironically, Matthew and Luke also contrarily claim Jesus was born of a virgin meaning he was not descended from David. The authors really screwed that up. The virgin birth is not mentioned by Mark, John, Peter, or Paul and as far as we know wasn't part of the early church doctrine, almost certainly being a mistranslation into Greek. One of many alterations and fabrications in the New Testament. In fact Jesus HAS to be born of earthly parents for his sacrifice to make sense, what is the value of essentially an alien (if he had 0 human biology) dying for our sins, Jesus was the son of God spiritually, he was physically the son of Mary and Joseph (unless of course Joseph really did think it was a virgin birth). Did he expect to be a sacrifice? He was preaching the end of the world and salvation via living an extra righteous life.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 21, 2023 1:04:17 GMT
I love that you get it, and then you reject it. Jesus must be human for his sacrifice to make senseTo be honest, it doesn't make sense to me either way. It’s amazing how the gospel writers were all up inside Jesus’ head thirty to seventy years later.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 21, 2023 1:08:16 GMT
I love that you get it, and then you reject it. Jesus must be human for his sacrifice to make sense No, you're the one who seems to be missing the point. In fact, when you quoted me the second time, you left out a key word: OTHERWISE.... The Lord Jesus Had a DUAL NATURE. One that Is Human, & One that Is Divine. He Received His Humanity From His Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. He Had His Divinity From Being Part Of the Triune God. This theology was formed many decades later and even then it was the minority opinion among the bishops. It did become the dominant church after centuries of killing off the Bogomils, Cathers, and other Christian non-trinitarian sects.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 21, 2023 2:02:18 GMT
I love that you get it, and then you reject it. Jesus must be human for his sacrifice to make sense No, you're the one who seems to be missing the point. In fact, when you quoted me the second time, you left out a key word: OTHERWISE.... The Lord Jesus Had a DUAL NATURE. One that Is Human, & One that Is Divine. He Received His Humanity From His Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. He Had His Divinity From Being Part Of the Triune God. Yes I left out the otherwise on purpose. Jesus was a human, fully and completely, the divine spark he had was the divine spark we all had, his journey is your journey to the absolute. This is the lesson of Peter walking on the water. Jesus has a dual nature, just as we do, although in your defense I have seen the argument made that his soul was unblemished from manifestation, I am not sure I agree.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 21, 2023 2:03:53 GMT
I love that you get it, and then you reject it. Jesus must be human for his sacrifice to make senseTo be honest, it doesn't make sense to me either way. It makes sense if you see the life of jesus as an allegorical template for spiritual growth, although the death part should in a lot of ways be metaphorical, his actual death (if he really lived through all this) was political.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 21, 2023 2:12:47 GMT
In fact Jesus HAS to be born of earthly parents for his sacrifice to make sense, what is the value of essentially an alien (if he had 0 human biology) dying for our sins, Jesus was the son of God spiritually, he was physically the son of Mary and Joseph (unless of course Joseph really did think it was a virgin birth). Did he expect to be a sacrifice? He was preaching the end of the world and salvation via living an extra righteous life. I am not sure, certainly the impression I get from his teaching (bearing in mind that I still hold that the bible is not the only source of Christianity) is that we need to metaphorically die to grow as spiritual beings (and I think there are parallels here in Tolle, and is destruction of the ego), I'm not convinced he expected to get nailed up, I am certain any human, no matter how spiritually advanced, would try not to go through crucifixion.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 2:19:59 GMT
No, you're the one who seems to be missing the point. In fact, when you quoted me the second time, you left out a key word: OTHERWISE.... The Lord Jesus Had a DUAL NATURE. One that Is Human, & One that Is Divine. He Received His Humanity From His Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. He Had His Divinity From Being Part Of the Triune God. Yes I left out the otherwise on purpose. Jesus was a human, fully and completely, the divine spark he had was the divine spark we all had, his journey is your journey to the absolute. This is the lesson of Peter walking on the water. Jesus has a dual nature, just as we do, although in your defense I have seen the argument made that his soul was unblemished from manifestation, I am not sure I agree. Tell me, gadreel, from your own POV, what is the point of being a disciple Of Our Lord Jesus, as opposed to let's say: Muhammad?....Confucius?...Zaruthustra?....Guru Nanak Dev?...Bahaullah?...etc? They all preached the One God. What makes Our Lord Jesus, the Perfect Choice?
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 21, 2023 2:34:20 GMT
Did he expect to be a sacrifice? He was preaching the end of the world and salvation via living an extra righteous life. I am not sure, certainly the impression I get from his teaching (bearing in mind that I still hold that the bible is not the only source of Christianity) is that we need to metaphorically die to grow as spiritual beings (and I think there are parallels here in Tolle, and is destruction of the ego), I'm not convinced he expected to get nailed up, I am certain any human, no matter how spiritually advanced, would try not to go through crucifixion. There were other martyred messiahs at the time besides Jesus, who would be executed for same crimes that he would later be executed for, so he probably knew it could happen to him, but not as substitute for sacrificial animals in the Temple burned to ameliorate God.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 2:51:33 GMT
No, you're the one who seems to be missing the point. In fact, when you quoted me the second time, you left out a key word: OTHERWISE.... The Lord Jesus Had a DUAL NATURE. One that Is Human, & One that Is Divine. He Received His Humanity From His Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. He Had His Divinity From Being Part Of the Triune God. This theology was formed many decades later and even then it was the minority opinion among the bishops. It did become the dominant church after centuries of killing off the Bogomils, Cathers, and other Christian non-trinitarian sects. The Divinity Of Jesus In Early Christian Thought
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 21, 2023 3:19:31 GMT
This theology was formed many decades later and even then it was the minority opinion among the bishops. It did become the dominant church after centuries of killing off the Bogomils, Cathers, and other Christian non-trinitarian sects. The Divinity Of Jesus In Early Christian Thought"Early" doesn't mean it was thought by Jesus himself. Jesus' divinity as a god comes from Greek Platonism which had been around for several hundred years before Christ. Jesus as a divine son of God was something possible in Jewish theology. Other divine sons of God were Elijah, Enoch, or any human being God had chosen to bring into his heavenly kingdom. Why can't a fully human Jew have done what he did and still be your savior? This Mary as a virgin impregnated by a god comes totally out of left field and has its sliver of a justification in a faulty reading of the OT, but it is counter to Jewish teachings. Why must this a Godhead be assigned to him when it was never a part of Jewish teaching? He still could have been raised from the dead as it were. Could you still be a Christian if you knew Jesus was solely a human being and not God Himself or would it not be the same?
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Post by Sarge on Mar 21, 2023 3:22:28 GMT
He wasn't doing anything worthy of remembrance. BTW, Matthew and Luke include Joseph in Jesus' genealogy showing that he was Jesus' biological father. Ironically, Matthew and Luke also contrarily claim Jesus was born of a virgin meaning he was not descended from David. The authors really screwed that up. The virgin birth is not mentioned by Mark, John, Peter, or Paul and as far as we know wasn't part of the early church doctrine, almost certainly being a mistranslation into Greek. One of many alterations and fabrications in the New Testament. St. Matthew's genealogy showed that St. Joseph was Our Lord's Adoptive father; St. Luke's genealogy traces Our Lady's Ancestry. Says that right next to where it says Jesus laid around all day playing Nine Mens Morris until his parents kicked him out. For anyone here that doesn't know, both gospels mentioned give the genealogy of Joseph. None give the genealogy of Mary. They disagree because they were made up.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 4:27:33 GMT
"Early" doesn't mean it was thought by Jesus himself. Jesus' divinity as a god comes from Greek Platonism which had been around for several hundred years before Christ. Jesus as a divine son of God was something possible in Jewish theology. Other divine sons of God were Elijah, Enoch, or any human being God had chosen to bring into his heavenly kingdom. Why can't a fully human Jew have done what he did and still be your savior? This Mary as a virgin impregnated by a god comes totally out of left field and has its sliver of a justification in a faulty reading of the OT, but it is counter to Jewish teachings. Why must this a Godhead be assigned to him when it was never a part of Jewish teaching? He still could have been raised from the dead as it were. Could you still be a Christian if you knew Jesus was solely a human being and not God Himself or would it not be the same? Except that neither Our Lord Jesus, nor His Apostles were Greek. They Were all Jewish. They all Saw the Great Wonders that Christ Performed, and even heard the Heavenly Father Say that This Is His Son. Although the Prophets Enoch & Elijah were Assumed bodily into Heaven, they were never viewed as divine.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 4:28:56 GMT
St. Matthew's genealogy showed that St. Joseph was Our Lord's Adoptive father; St. Luke's genealogy traces Our Lady's Ancestry. Says that right next to where it says Jesus laid around all day playing Nine Mens Morris until his parents kicked him out. For anyone here that doesn't know, both gospels mentioned give the genealogy of Joseph. None give the genealogy of Mary. They disagree because they were made up. No, St. Luke's genealogy is from Our Lady's. They only attribute it to St. Joseph because of the patriarchal culture of the time.
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