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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 21, 2023 4:35:11 GMT
"Early" doesn't mean it was thought by Jesus himself. Jesus' divinity as a god comes from Greek Platonism which had been around for several hundred years before Christ. Jesus as a divine son of God was something possible in Jewish theology. Other divine sons of God were Elijah, Enoch, or any human being God had chosen to bring into his heavenly kingdom. Why can't a fully human Jew have done what he did and still be your savior? This Mary as a virgin impregnated by a god comes totally out of left field and has its sliver of a justification in a faulty reading of the OT, but it is counter to Jewish teachings. Why must this a Godhead be assigned to him when it was never a part of Jewish teaching? He still could have been raised from the dead as it were. Could you still be a Christian if you knew Jesus was solely a human being and not God Himself or would it not be the same? Except that neither Our Lord Jesus, nor His Apostles were Greek. They Were all Jewish. They all Saw the Great Wonders that Christ Performed, and even heard the Heavenly Father Say that This Is His Son. Although the Prophets Enoch & Elijah were Assumed bodily into Heaven, they were never viewed as divine. So, you lived back then and know all this for sure? Or did God personally tell you this. Also, there is no need to capitalize all that. It does not make it more believable.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 4:52:56 GMT
Except that neither Our Lord Jesus, nor His Apostles were Greek. They Were all Jewish. They all Saw the Great Wonders that Christ Performed, and even heard the Heavenly Father Say that This Is His Son. Although the Prophets Enoch & Elijah were Assumed bodily into Heaven, they were never viewed as divine. So, you lived back then and know all this for sure? Or did God personally tell you this. Also, there is no need to capitalize all that. It does not make it more believable. The Apostles said so themselves. Both Sts. Peter & John confirm the Gospel accounts of the Transfiguration.
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Post by ShadowSouL: Padawan of Yoda on Mar 21, 2023 5:29:36 GMT
He wasn't doing anything worthy of remembrance. BTW, Matthew and Luke include Joseph in Jesus' genealogy showing that he was Jesus' biological father. Ironically, Matthew and Luke also contrarily claim Jesus was born of a virgin meaning he was not descended from David. The authors really screwed that up. The virgin birth is not mentioned by Mark, John, Peter, or Paul and as far as we know wasn't part of the early church doctrine, almost certainly being a mistranslation into Greek. One of many alterations and fabrications in the New Testament. St. Matthew's genealogy showed that St. Joseph was Our Lord's Adoptive father; St. Luke's genealogy traces Our Lady's Ancestry. The other 2 Gospels do not mention the Nativity. That is all. However, St. John's Gospel a)acknowledges that the Messiah was Prophesied to be Born in Bethlehem (St. John chapter 7, verse 42), & b)indicates that Our Lord was Conceived ahead of Our Lady & St. Joseph's wedding day (St. John chapter 8 verse 41). St. John also alludes to the Virgin Birth in Revelation chapter 12. Likewise, St. Paul also indicates it in Galatians chapter 4. And if Our Lord Jesus Did nothing Worthy of remembrance, why did Flavius Josephus write about Him in his Antiquities? Also, Our Lord Jesus was written about in the Babylonian Talmud? Nobody in that time absolutely copulated and conceived before they got married, or even if they never got married? Absolutely no one?
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Post by ShadowSouL: Padawan of Yoda on Mar 21, 2023 5:31:40 GMT
Maybe Jesus's death on the cross saves us from our sins, saves us from ourselves, by providing an example of living selflessly for others, not necessarily but possibly including dying for others.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 21, 2023 6:18:20 GMT
Yes I left out the otherwise on purpose. Jesus was a human, fully and completely, the divine spark he had was the divine spark we all had, his journey is your journey to the absolute. This is the lesson of Peter walking on the water. Jesus has a dual nature, just as we do, although in your defense I have seen the argument made that his soul was unblemished from manifestation, I am not sure I agree. Tell me, gadreel , from your own POV, what is the point of being a disciple Of Our Lord Jesus, as opposed to let's say: Muhammad?....Confucius?...Zaruthustra?....Guru Nanak Dev?...Bahaullah?...etc? They all preached the One God. What makes Our Lord Jesus, the Perfect Choice? I am hermetic. (and ignoring the practice of magic ) I am a mostly Christian hermetic for two reasons, 1, most hermetic texts are really very Christian with some eastern woo as well since the Christians purged their woo centuries ago 2, it speaks to me culturally, just like you think Catholicism is the only true religion because it speaks to you culturally.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 6:33:47 GMT
St. Matthew's genealogy showed that St. Joseph was Our Lord's Adoptive father; St. Luke's genealogy traces Our Lady's Ancestry. The other 2 Gospels do not mention the Nativity. That is all. However, St. John's Gospel a)acknowledges that the Messiah was Prophesied to be Born in Bethlehem (St. John chapter 7, verse 42), & b)indicates that Our Lord was Conceived ahead of Our Lady & St. Joseph's wedding day (St. John chapter 8 verse 41). St. John also alludes to the Virgin Birth in Revelation chapter 12. Likewise, St. Paul also indicates it in Galatians chapter 4. And if Our Lord Jesus Did nothing Worthy of remembrance, why did Flavius Josephus write about Him in his Antiquities? Also, Our Lord Jesus was written about in the Babylonian Talmud? Nobody in that time absolutely copulated and conceived before they got married, or even if they never got married? Absolutely no one? It was often a capital offence if it did (remember the story about the woman caught in adultery?).
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Post by Sarge on Mar 21, 2023 6:34:47 GMT
Says that right next to where it says Jesus laid around all day playing Nine Mens Morris until his parents kicked him out. For anyone here that doesn't know, both gospels mentioned give the genealogy of Joseph. None give the genealogy of Mary. They disagree because they were made up. No, St. Luke's genealogy is from Our Lady's. They only attribute it to St. Joseph because of the patriarchal culture of the time. In the gospel of St Potato Head it says that mother Mary was a prostitute and no one knew the father and that Joseph was a simp that agreed to marry her anyway.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 6:35:09 GMT
Tell me, gadreel , from your own POV, what is the point of being a disciple Of Our Lord Jesus, as opposed to let's say: Muhammad?....Confucius?...Zaruthustra?....Guru Nanak Dev?...Bahaullah?...etc? They all preached the One God. What makes Our Lord Jesus, the Perfect Choice? I am hermetic. (and ignoring the practice of magic ) I am a mostly Christian hermetic for two reasons, 1, most hermetic texts are really very Christian with some eastern woo as well since the Christians purged their woo centuries ago 2, it speaks to me culturally, just like you think Catholicism is the only true religion because it speaks to you culturally. You did not answer the question.
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Post by ShadowSouL: Padawan of Yoda on Mar 21, 2023 6:42:36 GMT
Nobody in that time absolutely copulated and conceived before they got married, or even if they never got married? Absolutely no one? It was often a capital offence if it did (remember the story about the woman caught in adultery?). Yeah, but that lady was cheating with a married man, or she was cheating while married, or both, hence adultery. I'm talking about two people who are unmarried or before they are married or just if they are engaged.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 21, 2023 6:50:22 GMT
I am hermetic. (and ignoring the practice of magic ) I am a mostly Christian hermetic for two reasons, 1, most hermetic texts are really very Christian with some eastern woo as well since the Christians purged their woo centuries ago 2, it speaks to me culturally, just like you think Catholicism is the only true religion because it speaks to you culturally. You did not answer the question. I kind of did, I just presumed you knew what hermeticism was EDIT: To be fair its a bit more complex then that, however that is the basic gist.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 21, 2023 6:54:56 GMT
I am not sure, certainly the impression I get from his teaching (bearing in mind that I still hold that the bible is not the only source of Christianity) is that we need to metaphorically die to grow as spiritual beings (and I think there are parallels here in Tolle, and is destruction of the ego), I'm not convinced he expected to get nailed up, I am certain any human, no matter how spiritually advanced, would try not to go through crucifixion. There were other martyred messiahs at the time besides Jesus, who would be executed for same crimes that he would later be executed for, so he probably knew it could happen to him, but not as substitute for sacrificial animals in the Temple burned to ameliorate God. One wonders, given the spiritual lesson in his death and rebirth, it was inevitable that it would be told to have happened whether it did really happen or not.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 21, 2023 6:56:20 GMT
It was often a capital offence if it did (remember the story about the woman caught in adultery?). Yeah, but that lady was cheating with a married man, or she was cheating while married, or both, hence adultery. I'm talking about two people who are unmarried or before they are married or just if they are engaged. Back then they stoned people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath or pooping in the wrong place.
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Post by ShadowSouL: Padawan of Yoda on Mar 21, 2023 6:59:30 GMT
Yeah, but that lady was cheating with a married man, or she was cheating while married, or both, hence adultery. I'm talking about two people who are unmarried or before they are married or just if they are engaged. Back then they stoned people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath or pooping in the wrong place. Not too dissimilar from what the GOP wants to do these days.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 21, 2023 7:06:02 GMT
There were other martyred messiahs at the time besides Jesus, who would be executed for same crimes that he would later be executed for, so he probably knew it could happen to him, but not as substitute for sacrificial animals in the Temple burned to ameliorate God. One wonders, given the spiritual lesson in his death and rebirth, it was inevitable that it would be told to have happened whether it did really happen or not. Look at how people get all irrational and emotional over Trump with counter narratives flying. The followers who knew Jesus was a human back when his mother and brothers came to take home, were eventually drown out. The people who could not accept his death started the “we have see Jesus alive” movement. Mark ends with an empty tomb, not a live Jesus where the followers have trouble recognizing him at first. Human brains worked no differently back then as today. Wishful thinking combined with magical thinking is a powerful thing.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 14:01:59 GMT
It was often a capital offence if it did (remember the story about the woman caught in adultery?). Yeah, but that lady was cheating with a married man, or she was cheating while married, or both, hence adultery. I'm talking about two people who are unmarried or before they are married or just if they are engaged. It was still considered a great sin to have sexual relations before marriage, & tarnish one's reputation.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 14:11:25 GMT
You did not answer the question. I kind of did, I just presumed you knew what hermeticism was EDIT: To be fair its a bit more complex than that, however that is the basic gist. Yes, & it is precisely because it is far more complex than that, that people choose one religion or another. Admittedly, in Asia (& possibly a few other places in the world), there actually is no such thing as loyalty to one particular religion. However, it should be noted that most religions in Asia are polytheistic, hence the idea of being loyal to Only One God, for the most part, does not exist. Some of the younger religions that have been formed in the last few hundred years, such as the Baha'i faith and/or Cao Dai, try to amalgamate the different world religions by including the religious figures from each of the different existing ones into their pantheon. The problem is, the different theologies of the various religions in the world. They can be anything from monotheistic; polytheistic; pantheistic,; etc.
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Post by clusium on Mar 21, 2023 14:15:19 GMT
One wonders, given the spiritual lesson in his death and rebirth, it was inevitable that it would be told to have happened whether it did really happen or not. Look at how people get all irrational and emotional over Trump with counter narratives flying. The followers who knew Jesus was a human back when his mother and brothers came to take home, were eventually drown out. The people who could not accept his death started the “we have see Jesus alive” movement. Mark ends with an empty tomb, not a live Jesus where the followers have trouble recognizing him at first. Human brains worked no differently back then as today. Wishful thinking combined with magical thinking is a powerful thing. Except that the Apostles, as well as quite a few of the witnesses Of the Resurrected Saviour, were later severely persecuted for bearing witness to the afore-mention Resurrection. Many were even killed (Martyred)for their testimony. Therefore, there was a little more than wishful thinking combined with magical thinking, at play here.
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Post by amyghost on Mar 21, 2023 14:19:35 GMT
Yeah, but that lady was cheating with a married man, or she was cheating while married, or both, hence adultery. I'm talking about two people who are unmarried or before they are married or just if they are engaged. It was still considered a great sin to have sexual relations before marriage, & tarnish one's reputation. It's been considered that in many cultures and many times, sometimes with serious penalties attached. It didn't stop people from doing so, likely with some frequency. There's a very good probability you have at least one kinsman in your family tree who's the product of this--and that's the case with the majority of us.
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Post by general313 on Mar 21, 2023 18:31:09 GMT
To be honest, it doesn't make sense to me either way. It makes sense if you see the life of jesus as an allegorical template for spiritual growth, although the death part should in a lot of ways be metaphorical, his actual death (if he really lived through all this) was political. If it's allegorical, are we then no longer talking about physical death or life after death? Is believing in Christ's sacrifice still crucial?
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Post by gadreel on Mar 21, 2023 19:17:13 GMT
I kind of did, I just presumed you knew what hermeticism was EDIT: To be fair its a bit more complex than that, however that is the basic gist. Yes, & it is precisely because it is far more complex than that, that people choose one religion or another. Admittedly, in Asia (& possibly a few other places in the world), there actually is no such thing as loyalty to one particular religion. However, it should be noted that most religions in Asia are polytheistic, hence the idea of being loyal to Only One God, for the most part, does not exist. Some of the younger religions that have been formed in the last few hundred years, such as the Baha'i faith and/or Cao Dai, try to amalgamate the different world religions by including the religious figures from each of the different existing ones into their pantheon. The problem is, the different theologies of the various religions in the world. They can be anything from monotheistic; polytheistic; pantheistic,; etc. yeah sorry not clear enough prisca theologia is a bit more complex than that. The problem is people, much like you who pick a religion, then tell everyone it is the exclusive truth and the only real religion. It's not only supremely arrogant, it shows up a fundamental misunderstanding of world religion and it ignores the fact that the primary reason you believe in your particular religion is that you are culturally predisposed to. The distinction between monotheism and polytheism is wayy less than you presume. Monotheists have simply decided (rightfully in my opinion actually, although that is beside the point) that the creator god is the actual god and all the other gods are angels or saints.
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