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Post by tickingmask on Jan 2, 2018 23:44:37 GMT
The proportion of Muslims (in the 18-24 bracket anyway) doesn't appear to have "grown considerably". Perhaps you'd like to reconsider that statement. The 2001 census showed that 3.07% of the UK population were Muslim. In the 2011 census that had increased to 4.83%. The 2014 estimate is 5.4%. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#DemographicsNow I don't know what proportion of these figures are represented by the 18-24 bracket (and neither, I suspect, do you, since your attempted extrapolation of the "Other Religions" age groups is sheer guesswork), but when you look at these numbers, does the phrase "considerable growth" not even begin to cross your mind? Or is it wishful thinking again that prevents you from seeing this?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 3, 2018 15:20:58 GMT
This must be why the government is so keen to replace the lost native religion with conservative Islam. Also because the Muslims are brown and skepticism of the claims of Islam is being conflated with racism, I predict that it will eventually be illegal to publicly express skepticism of religion, or at least Islam. Most Muslims favour a blasphemy law, and this seems to be the way that culture is trending in Britain. On 5 March 2008, in the UK an amendment was passed to the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which abolished the common law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel in England and Wales, which suggests the opposite. Also, although I can understand that you were just using hyperbole for effect, I have not heard any public pronouncements by government spokespeople (or MPs generally) on replacing native religion with Islam for which, one imagines support would only lie among fundamentalist, or idealistic, Muslims.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 3, 2018 15:35:24 GMT
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 3, 2018 17:32:04 GMT
That only counts conversion to Islam, it doesn't include migration. In 2004 the Pakistani born population of the UK was 280,000. It was 520,000 in 2016. The vast majority are Muslim. The majority of emigrants from the UK are British and EU citizens. Meaning that the demographicsof the nation are shifting from British and European to African and Asian.
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Post by tickingmask on Jan 3, 2018 21:32:44 GMT
...growth rate of 2.5%... What kind of drugs do you need to be on, I wonder, to work out that an increase from 1,600,000 in 2001 to 2,706,000 in 2011 constitutes a growth rate of 2.5%? That's abour 5.4%, compounding, year on year. At that rate, the number doubles every 13 years and the population would be around 6 trillion in 280 years!
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 3, 2018 22:45:51 GMT
...growth rate of 2.5%... What kind of drugs do you need to be on, I wonder, to work out that an increase from 1,600,000 in 2001 to 2,706,000 in 2011 constitutes a growth rate of 2.5%? That's abour 5.4%, compounding, year on year. At that rate, the number doubles every 13 years and the population would be around 6 trillion in 280 years! He has used the Letfy rag The Guardian. What the Guardian has done is looked at the number of Muslim converts and decided that converts to Islam are literally the only way the population can increase. It doesn't cover birthrate or immigration from Muslim countries nor emigration of native Britons. Its either written by a drooling imbecile or an ideologically driven liar. Or both.
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Post by tickingmask on Jan 3, 2018 22:54:11 GMT
He has used the Lefty rag The Guardian. What the Guardian has done is looked at the number of Muslim converts and decided that converts to Islam are literally the only way the population can increase. Perhaps The Grauniad is subtly issuing a Trump-like call to ban all Muslim immigration, and is suggesting a eugenics program to boot. Well, I'll be blowed.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jan 3, 2018 22:55:22 GMT
The proportion of Muslims (in the 18-24 bracket anyway) doesn't appear to have "grown considerably". Perhaps you'd like to reconsider that statement. The 2001 census showed that 3.07% of the UK population were Muslim. In the 2011 census that had increased to 4.83%. The 2014 estimate is 5.4%. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#DemographicsNow I don't know what proportion of these figures are represented by the 18-24 bracket (and neither, I suspect, do you, since your attempted extrapolation of the "Other Religions" age groups is sheer guesswork), but when you look at these numbers, does the phrase "considerable growth" not even begin to cross your mind? Or is it wishful thinking again that prevents you from seeing this? Given that the total "Other Religion" for 18-24 years looks like it's only about 5% on their graphs and that will include Jews, Hindus, Sikhs etc then it would suggest (as other posters are pointing out) that people are bringing their religion with them. But those people born in the country don't inherit/retain it. And also given that one of the main promises of Brexit was a curb on immigration so that our grey-haired friends can pretend they're living back in the 1960's again and don't have to face the horrors of funny foreign looking food in the shops and there will magically be a bottomless supply of money to give everyone a personal nurse (white British nurse of course!) then we won't be getting any more immigrants coming in soon. So all we need to worry about are our domestic religious issues...
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 3, 2018 23:50:35 GMT
Perhaps you'd like to reconsider that statement. The 2001 census showed that 3.07% of the UK population were Muslim. In the 2011 census that had increased to 4.83%. The 2014 estimate is 5.4%. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#DemographicsNow I don't know what proportion of these figures are represented by the 18-24 bracket (and neither, I suspect, do you, since your attempted extrapolation of the "Other Religions" age groups is sheer guesswork), but when you look at these numbers, does the phrase "considerable growth" not even begin to cross your mind? Or is it wishful thinking again that prevents you from seeing this? Given that the total "Other Religion" for 18-24 years looks like it's only about 5% on their graphs and that will include Jews, Hindus, Sikhs etc then it would suggest (as other posters are pointing out) that people are bringing their religion with them. But those people born in the country don't inherit/retain it. And also given that one of the main promises of Brexit was a curb on immigration so that our grey-haired friends can pretend they're living back in the 1960's again and don't have to face the horrors of funny foreign looking food in the shops and there will magically be a bottomless supply of money to give everyone a personal nurse (white British nurse of course!) then we won't be getting any more immigrants coming in soon. So all we need to worry about are our domestic religious issues... Its more the horrors of depressed wages, increased pressure on services, increased competition in the labour market and increased pressure on housing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 6:38:10 GMT
This must be why the government is so keen to replace the lost native religion with conservative Islam. Also because the Muslims are brown and skepticism of the claims of Islam is being conflated with racism, I predict that it will eventually be illegal to publicly express skepticism of religion, or at least Islam. Most Muslims favour a blasphemy law, and this seems to be the way that culture is trending in Britain. On 5 March 2008, in the UK an amendment was passed to the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which abolished the common law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel in England and Wales, which suggests the opposite. Also, although I can understand that you were just using hyperbole for effect, I have not heard any public pronouncements by government spokespeople (or MPs generally) on replacing native religion with Islam for which, one imagines support would only lie among fundamentalist, or idealistic, Muslims. I was aware that the blasphemy law was abolished in 2008, however if you think that we aren't headed for another blasphemy law created specially to protect Muslims, then you're being very naive. As things stand, any kind of criticism of Islam is being conflated with incitement to racial hatred against anyone with brown skin: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/10/islamophobia-racism-dresden-protests-germany-islamisation And the Muslim community is quite vocally in favour of another blasphemy law, including disgraced former MP Keith Vaz (who could probably be described as a moderate Muslim, in the scheme of things): www.rt.com/uk/322319-blasphemy-laws-freedom-expression/I'm not suggesting that the UK government is going to make Islam the official religion of the UK; merely that it's going to be a significant polical bloc which cannot be criticised for fear of being accused of racism, or having legal action taken against one for incitement to racial hatred.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 4, 2018 12:42:06 GMT
]I was aware that the blasphemy law was abolished in 2008, however if you think that we aren't headed for another blasphemy law created specially to protect Muslims, then you're being very naive. You are entitled to your opinion. But the 'heading towards' you identify is not something I recognise, more a movement in society to similarly equalise the treatment of all religions under the law. (Hence the landmark repeal of the blasphemy law, which was aimed principally in regards to protecting Christianity, in the usual form of the Church of England.) Once again, you are entitled to your opinion; but a moment's reflection of modern UK society - and a look at the official statistics as well as anecdotal evidence, will show that serious Islamaphobia (and hate attacks against ethnics generally, whether based on their religion or not) is on the rise, rather than it being the case that 'any type' of criticism is being over exaggerated. Rather than the politically-correct just being quick to take offence as you imply, there is a real problem of negative sentiment against 'the other', noted by various commentators, which has been exacerbated by the social movements behind Brexit, tabloid incitement over refugee 'floods' and anti-immigration sympathies etc. The idea that 'any' criticism is deemed unacceptable to regular Islamic believers is just a British right wing trope, since Islam (and Christianity as well) are, well-meant or not, criticised one or another frequently in the UK without the overall reaction you describe. [As distinct from the over sensitive and repressive regimes elsewhere] It is the worst of it which gives offence, and rightly so. Unless you don't think so?
More calls for this would not be surprising given the climate described above. Although it is hard to see how the return of any blasphemy law could be imagined without it being tightened in favour of protecting all religion from contempt and ridicule, not just Islam ( i.e. not "specially protecting Muslims" as you forecast, above. And this is, in fact is what Vaz, in your link, is suggesting. It is however arguable that the existing UK laws on hate speech & etc are perfectly adequate if properly enforced, one reason in fact why the antiquated old law was repealed. Quite why religion should get an easy ride, away from protecting the sensitivities of believers, can be a hard case to make, given the chequered history of such law and the already privileged status of religious institutions and figures in democracies.
I am glad to hear of it. I have heard such hyperbole before; it is patently ridiculous and another manifestation of Islamophobia and usually appears in the form of the ubiquitous 'slippery slope' fallacious argument.
Your apparent dread of a Muslim power base or bloc is simply exaggerated, although in the UK there is going to be an increased presence of Islam as there will be in many countries. But there is no immediate sign of giving the religion - any religion - more special, positive, treatment - in fact, with the rise of a secular society as well as the Brexit/refugee effect, the opposite seems to be the case at the moment.
In short, my reply to many of the replies here is: a greater percentage of your entirely peaceful and law-abiding neighbours are, yes, likely to be Muslim. Get over it.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 4, 2018 12:51:28 GMT
...growth rate of 2.5%... What kind of drugs do you need to be on, I wonder, to work out that an increase from 1,600,000 in 2001 to 2,706,000 in 2011 constitutes a growth rate of 2.5%? That's abour 5.4%, compounding, year on year. At that rate, the number doubles every 13 years and the population would be around 6 trillion in 280 years! I don't think you read the article properly, not least since as you note, 6 trillion is an absurd number. As others have noted, the article is about conversions. Pew Research finds more generally that the UK's Muslim population is set to rise from 2.9m now to 5.6m in 2030 - up from 2% of the UK population to 4.6%. This increase seems to exercise some more than others - those who fret about the 'mongrelization of culture' say, or 'loss of national identity' 'Islamification of society' and all the rest. In reality any changes reflect a particular time, external events and population cycle, not the slippery slope of a unremitting process whereby the UK will be 'filled up' by people of different skin colour and religion so that, eventually all that remains is a pale pocket of the 'real' British in thrall to the Mullahs. But most level-headed people might be expected to see this, while admitting any population changes can still bring inevitable problems.
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Post by tickingmask on Jan 4, 2018 19:14:50 GMT
As others have noted, the article is about conversions. Then, if you already knew that when you posted it, why did you try to make the argument that it is " informed consideration of the growth of Islam in the UK"? How intellectually dishonest of you. And if I ever start to feel 'exercised' about loss of national identity, Islamification of society or anything similar, then I'd be happy to assure you that you will be the first to know.
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Post by cupcakes on Jan 4, 2018 19:38:41 GMT
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 5, 2018 11:45:35 GMT
As others have noted, the article is about conversions. Then, if you already knew that when you posted it, why did you try to make the argument that it is " informed consideration of the growth of Islam in the UK"? How intellectually dishonest of you. I am not sure why you would say this since the article was certainly informed, while religious conversions count towards the growth of Islam, do they not? You will also note that yesterday that I posted the Pew Research figures on overall projections of the growth of Islam in the UK. I hope that helps, too. And if I accuse you specifically of these things, please be sure and point it out.
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Post by tickingmask on Jan 6, 2018 15:23:15 GMT
I am not sure why you would say this ... Stop being so disingenuous. You were using the Guardian article to claim that, on the current growth rate, it will take 280 years for numbers to double to 8%. No, on the current growth rate it will take 13. That's blatant intellectual dishonesty, hence the reason I'm calling it for what it is. I hope that helps. Then stop setting yourself to be rebuked by bringing them up as a total irrelevancy in your replies to me and talking patronisingly about what "level-headed people" think as if implying that I'm not one of them. If you're in the habit of talking down to people in that way in real life, you must get punched a lot!
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Post by socalboy83 on Jan 8, 2018 4:11:56 GMT
No it won'r, Christianity will simply be replaced by Islam. Do you want that?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 8, 2018 12:07:57 GMT
Stop being so disingenuous. You were using the Guardian article to claim that, on the current growth rate, it will take 280 years for numbers to double to 8%. No, on the current growth rate it will take 13. That's blatant intellectual dishonesty, hence the reason I'm calling it for what it is. I hope that helps.
My initial reply (which admittedly could have been more precise by way of preface) simply linked to a more considered consideration of Thor's initial rhetoric about Christianity eventually "being replaced by Islam". Since neither the statistics of conversion rates nor the projections from the Pew Research Centre - also given by me - bear out such sensationalist and Islamophobic hyperbole, my reply stands. You will also note my previous remark to you that :
I hope that helps. And, try not to make everything into a personal attack.
I'll leave you to draw your own implications my friend. But, as before, when I specifically exclude you from the level-headed (as perhaps opposed to the cool-headed), be sure and let me know about that, and I will apologise. lol
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 9, 2018 1:36:21 GMT
No it won'r, Christianity will simply be replaced by Islam. Do you want that? Absolutely not. Christianity isn't great, but shall we compare any Islamic nation to any Western one? For some reason known best only to themselves, some people actually seem to think that if you change the demographics f a nation, you won't change the character of that nation. Anyone seen the New Years Eve reports from France and Germany? almost 1000 cars torched in France. 57 emergency service vehicles attacked in Germany. This kind of thing used to happen in Europe every year....oh wait, it didn't.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 9, 2018 2:03:27 GMT
Stop being so disingenuous. You were using the Guardian article to claim that, on the current growth rate, it will take 280 years for numbers to double to 8%. No, on the current growth rate it will take 13. That's blatant intellectual dishonesty, hence the reason I'm calling it for what it is. I hope that helps.
My initial reply (which admittedly could have been more precise by way of preface) simply linked to a more considered consideration of Thor's initial rhetoric about Christianity eventually "being replaced by Islam". Since neither the statistics of conversion rates nor the projections from the Pew Research Centre - also given by me - bear out such sensationalist and Islamophobic hyperbole, my reply stands. You will also note my previous remark to you that :
I hope that helps. And, try not to make everything into a personal attack.
I'll leave you to draw your own implications my friend. But, as before, when I specifically exclude you from the level-headed (as perhaps opposed to the cool-headed), be sure and let me know about that, and I will apologise. lol Once again, you're being impressively dishonest. Here is what you actually said: "Away from such gloomy rhetoric, here is a more informed consideration of the growth of Islam in the UK from The Guardian which concludes among other things that, since Islam has a growth rate of 2.5% ... it will take 280 years for their numbers to double to 8%" Nobody who had read the article would make such a claim. You either didn't read it properly or you expected nobody else to read it. Just for a change Flim Flam, own what you say. Admit your errors or admit your dishonesty because once again, you ain't fooling anyone That article even tells you in the opening paragraph that the number of Muslims has almost doubled from 1,600,000 in 2001 to 2,900,000 in 2011. If that trend continues, by 2050 you would have 8,000,000 Muslims and that isn't factoring in the increased numbers through birth rate. In 2015 the government showed that only 65% of babies born in the UK were "White British" this means that the numbers of native Brits is declining. So add that to the growth of Islam and the increasing emigration of Britons and how long do you think it will really be before we have legal Sharia courts? Because it sure as shit won't be 280 years.
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