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Post by goz on Jan 9, 2018 2:11:12 GMT
My initial reply (which admittedly could have been more precise by way of preface) simply linked to a more considered consideration of Thor's initial rhetoric about Christianity eventually "being replaced by Islam". Since neither the statistics of conversion rates nor the projections from the Pew Research Centre - also given by me - bear out such sensationalist and Islamophobic hyperbole, my reply stands. You will also note my previous remark to you that :
I hope that helps. And, try not to make everything into a personal attack.
I'll leave you to draw your own implications my friend. But, as before, when I specifically exclude you from the level-headed (as perhaps opposed to the cool-headed), be sure and let me know about that, and I will apologise. lol Once again, you're being impressively dishonest. Here is what you actually said: "Away from such gloomy rhetoric, here is a more informed consideration of the growth of Islam in the UK from The Guardian which concludes among other things that, since Islam has a growth rate of 2.5% ... it will take 280 years for their numbers to double to 8%" Nobody who had read the article would make such a claim. You either didn't read it properly or you expected nobody else to read it. Just for a change Flim Flam, own what you say. Admit your errors or admit your dishonesty because once again, you ain't fooling anyone That article even tells you in the opening paragraph that the number of Muslims has almost doubled from 1,600,000 in 2001 to 2,900,000 in 2011. If that trend continues, by 2050 you would have 8,000,000 Muslims and that isn't factoring in the increased numbers through birth rate. In 2015 the government showed that only 65% of babies born in the UK were "White British" this means that the numbers of native Brits is declining. So add that to the growth of Islam and the increasing emigration of Britons and how long do you think it will really be before we have legal Sharia courts? Because it sure as shit won't be 280 years. Why would having 8 million Muslims in UK lead to having legal Sharia courts? Britain already has a justice system.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 9, 2018 2:14:07 GMT
Once again, you're being impressively dishonest. Here is what you actually said: "Away from such gloomy rhetoric, here is a more informed consideration of the growth of Islam in the UK from The Guardian which concludes among other things that, since Islam has a growth rate of 2.5% ... it will take 280 years for their numbers to double to 8%" Nobody who had read the article would make such a claim. You either didn't read it properly or you expected nobody else to read it. Just for a change Flim Flam, own what you say. Admit your errors or admit your dishonesty because once again, you ain't fooling anyone That article even tells you in the opening paragraph that the number of Muslims has almost doubled from 1,600,000 in 2001 to 2,900,000 in 2011. If that trend continues, by 2050 you would have 8,000,000 Muslims and that isn't factoring in the increased numbers through birth rate. In 2015 the government showed that only 65% of babies born in the UK were "White British" this means that the numbers of native Brits is declining. So add that to the growth of Islam and the increasing emigration of Britons and how long do you think it will really be before we have legal Sharia courts? Because it sure as shit won't be 280 years. Why would having 8 million Muslims in UK lead to having legal Sharia courts? Britain already has a justice system. It's based on the observation that Muslims do not assimilate, but instead try to change the country they are in (in accordance with their religious beliefs), therefore at a certain critical tipping point there will be enough muslims in a country that they can change it into a muslim state. Ironically if we as Christian were more militant and forced religious law, practitioners of Islam would be more likely to respect us.
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Post by goz on Jan 9, 2018 2:17:43 GMT
Why would having 8 million Muslims in UK lead to having legal Sharia courts? Britain already has a justice system. It's based on the observation that Muslims do not assimilate, but instead try to change the country they are in (in accordance with their religious beliefs), therefore at a certain critical tipping point there will be enough muslims in a country that they can change it into a muslim state. Ironically if we as Christian were more militant and forced religious law, practitioners of Islam would be more likely to respect us. Oh right! So just regular fear mongering and bigotry!
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 9, 2018 9:22:03 GMT
Once again, you're being impressively dishonest. Here is what you actually said: "Away from such gloomy rhetoric, here is a more informed consideration of the growth of Islam in the UK from The Guardian which concludes among other things that, since Islam has a growth rate of 2.5% ... it will take 280 years for their numbers to double to 8%" Nobody who had read the article would make such a claim. They would once they realised it was talking about conversions - and indeed noticed, as you did I believe that, once it is read, that is what the article refers to. But, once again: since neither the statistics of conversion rates nor the projections from the Pew Research Centre - also given by me - bear out such sensationalist and Islamophobic hyperbole as you offered, my reply still stands. That's the point. And once again, I can only tell you and your ilk to resist the temptation to make everything personal - especially when I have already freely admitted my original reply could have been more precise by way of preface - and just focus on the issues. And a personal insult is still not an argument, just as it wasn't on previous occasions I have told you, so I guess you really know that. Thank you for your input, but my answer is the same as before, here repeated for your benefit and in the face of your tabloid rhetoric: Pew Research finds more generally that the UK's Muslim population is set to rise from 2.9m now to 5.6m in 2030 - up from 2% of the UK population to 4.6%. This increase seems to exercise some more than others - those who fret about the 'mongrelization of culture' say, or 'loss of national identity' 'Islamification of society' and all the rest. In reality any changes reflect a particular time, external events and population cycle, not the slippery slope of a unremitting process whereby the UK will be 'filled up' by people of different skin colour and religion so that, eventually all that remains is a pale pocket of the 'real' British in thrall to the Mullahs. But most level-headed people might be expected to see this, while admitting any population changes can still bring inevitable problems. In short, my answer to many of the replies here still is: a greater percentage of our entirely peaceful and law-abiding neighbours in the UK are, yes, likely to be Muslim. Get over it. I hope that helps. Although I doubt it lol
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 9, 2018 18:39:58 GMT
Once again, you're being impressively dishonest. Here is what you actually said: "Away from such gloomy rhetoric, here is a more informed consideration of the growth of Islam in the UK from The Guardian which concludes among other things that, since Islam has a growth rate of 2.5% ... it will take 280 years for their numbers to double to 8%" Nobody who had read the article would make such a claim. They would once they realised it was talking about conversions - and indeed noticed, as you did I believe that, once it is read, that is what the article refers to. But, once again: since neither the statistics of conversion rates nor the projections from the Pew Research Centre - also given by me - bear out such sensationalist and Islamophobic hyperbole as you offered, my reply still stands. That's the point. And once again, I can only tell you and your ilk to resist the temptation to make everything personal - especially when I have already freely admitted my original reply could have been more precise by way of preface - and just focus on the issues. And a personal insult is still not an argument, just as it wasn't on previous occasions I have told you, so I guess you really know that. Thank you for your input, but my answer is the same as before, here repeated for your benefit and in the face of your tabloid rhetoric: Pew Research finds more generally that the UK's Muslim population is set to rise from 2.9m now to 5.6m in 2030 - up from 2% of the UK population to 4.6%. This increase seems to exercise some more than others - those who fret about the 'mongrelization of culture' say, or 'loss of national identity' 'Islamification of society' and all the rest. In reality any changes reflect a particular time, external events and population cycle, not the slippery slope of a unremitting process whereby the UK will be 'filled up' by people of different skin colour and religion so that, eventually all that remains is a pale pocket of the 'real' British in thrall to the Mullahs. But most level-headed people might be expected to see this, while admitting any population changes can still bring inevitable problems. In short, my answer to many of the replies here still is: a greater percentage of our entirely peaceful and law-abiding neighbours in the UK are, yes, likely to be Muslim. Get over it. I hope that helps. Although I doubt it lol I hate to tell you this, but those figures are wrong. 2.9m is 4.6% of the population, not 2% So forgive me If I don't the rest of your argument seriously. But feel free to check the Pew research into Muslim attitudes to homosexuality, women, Jews and Sharia law, then consider whether you think doubling the numbers of Muslims might represent a problem to a secular democracy.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 9, 2018 18:42:29 GMT
It's based on the observation that Muslims do not assimilate, but instead try to change the country they are in (in accordance with their religious beliefs), therefore at a certain critical tipping point there will be enough muslims in a country that they can change it into a muslim state. Ironically if we as Christian were more militant and forced religious law, practitioners of Islam would be more likely to respect us. Oh right! So just regular fear mongering and bigotry! Goz. Two separate polls show that half of UK Muslims want homosexuality made illegal. 40% want sharia law for Muslim areas. Do you think doubling or trebling the numbers of Muslims might create problems for the gay community? Might cause issues for women? Or Jews? Tell us please, Goz, which Islamic Nation would you prefer to live in over Australia? Iran? Pakistan? Egypt? Good luck with that.
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Post by cupcakes on Jan 9, 2018 19:49:30 GMT
tpfkar Absolutely not. Christianity isn't great, but shall we compare any Islamic nation to any Western one? For some reason known best only to themselves, some people actually seem to think that if you change the demographics f a nation, you won't change the character of that nation. Anyone seen the New Years Eve reports from France and Germany? almost 1000 cars torched in France. 57 emergency service vehicles attacked in Germany. This kind of thing used to happen in Europe every year....oh wait, it didn't. Depends about how stupid a country is with it and how badly the natives work to segregate & blanket vilify them. There is a serious problem within the Muslim Asian community when it comes to the sexual abuse of young girls(mainly white).
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Post by phludowin on Jan 9, 2018 20:05:25 GMT
Anyone seen the New Years Eve reports from France and Germany? almost 1000 cars torched in France. 57 emergency service vehicles attacked in Germany. This kind of thing used to happen in Europe every year....oh wait, it didn't. True. Before cars were invented, religious people in Europe burnt women.
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Post by goz on Jan 10, 2018 0:53:39 GMT
Oh right! So just regular fear mongering and bigotry! Goz. Two separate polls show that half of UK Muslims want homosexuality made illegal. 40% want sharia law for Muslim areas. Do you think doubling or trebling the numbers of Muslims might create problems for the gay community? Might cause issues for women? Or Jews? Tell us please, Goz, which Islamic Nation would you prefer to live in over Australia? Iran? Pakistan? Egypt? Good luck with that. Wow! Still more fear mongering and bigotry. It seems it is your hobby. I prefer to live in Australia for the very obvious reason that whilst we might have some racial problems, the majority of people here relish having a plural multicultural society which allows everyone 'a fair go' and are confident enough of our institutions to maintain law and order in a fair minded and egalitarian way.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 10, 2018 1:45:30 GMT
Anyone seen the New Years Eve reports from France and Germany? almost 1000 cars torched in France. 57 emergency service vehicles attacked in Germany. This kind of thing used to happen in Europe every year....oh wait, it didn't. True. Before cars were invented, religious people in Europe burnt women. About 150 years before the invention of the car, maybe. You realise that places outside of Europe still do it, right? Can you ever draw an equivalence between the Islamic World World and Europe that doesn't require us to go 250 years or so into the past? According to Wiki, in the UK over a three hundred year period, 2000 women were killed as witches. ISIS beat that in six months.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 10, 2018 1:47:34 GMT
Goz. Two separate polls show that half of UK Muslims want homosexuality made illegal. 40% want sharia law for Muslim areas. Do you think doubling or trebling the numbers of Muslims might create problems for the gay community? Might cause issues for women? Or Jews? Tell us please, Goz, which Islamic Nation would you prefer to live in over Australia? Iran? Pakistan? Egypt? Good luck with that. Wow! Still more fear mongering and bigotry. It seems it is your hobby. I prefer to live in Australia for the very obvious reason that whilst we might have some racial problems, the majority of people here relish having a plural multicultural society which allows everyone 'a fair go' and are confident enough of our institutions to maintain law and order in a fair minded and egalitarian way. Wow, are you suggesting that Islamic countries don't like egalitarian, multicultural societies? Seems like you are Goz. Now how about answering the question. In the UK 50% of Muslims want homosexuality made illegal. Would doubling the population of Muslims create problems for the LGBT community, yes or no?
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Post by goz on Jan 10, 2018 2:07:56 GMT
Wow! Still more fear mongering and bigotry. It seems it is your hobby. I prefer to live in Australia for the very obvious reason that whilst we might have some racial problems, the majority of people here relish having a plural multicultural society which allows everyone 'a fair go' and are confident enough of our institutions to maintain law and order in a fair minded and egalitarian way. Wow, are you suggesting that Islamic countries don't like egalitarian, multicultural societies? Seems like you are Goz. Now how about answering the question. In the UK 50% of Muslims want homosexuality made illegal. Would doubling the population of Muslims create problems for the LGBT community, yes or no? Most of the Muslims who live here seem to be happy to do so. I don't see homosexuality being made illegal any time soon in either my country or yours. We just had a popular vote as to whether same sex marriage should be legalised and the yes vote got 62% support with most no voters being religious people of different persuasions and they will just have to live with the result.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 10, 2018 2:36:08 GMT
Wow, are you suggesting that Islamic countries don't like egalitarian, multicultural societies? Seems like you are Goz. Now how about answering the question. In the UK 50% of Muslims want homosexuality made illegal. Would doubling the population of Muslims create problems for the LGBT community, yes or no? Most of the Muslims who live here seem to be happy to do so. I don't see homosexuality being made illegal any time soon in either my country or yours. We just had a popular vote as to whether same sex marriage should be legalised and the yes vote got 62% support with most no voters being religious people of different persuasions and they will just have to live with the result. You're still evading the question Goz. 50% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be made illegal. Will doubling their number help the LGBT community?
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Post by goz on Jan 10, 2018 2:45:14 GMT
Most of the Muslims who live here seem to be happy to do so. I don't see homosexuality being made illegal any time soon in either my country or yours. We just had a popular vote as to whether same sex marriage should be legalised and the yes vote got 62% support with most no voters being religious people of different persuasions and they will just have to live with the result. You're still evading the question Goz. 50% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be made illegal. Will doubling their number help the LGBT community? It doesn't mater what they think and that is a stupid illogical question.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 10, 2018 9:59:55 GMT
I hate to tell you this, but those figures are wrong. 2.9m is 4.6% of the population, not 2% So forgive me If I don't the rest of your argument seriously. But feel free to check the Pew research into Muslim attitudes to homosexuality, women, Jews and Sharia law, then consider whether you think doubling the numbers of Muslims might represent a problem to a secular democracy. As I said before, some people are Muslim. It seems more of them will be. Get over it. And the riposte to your original, and entirely characteristic, Islamophobic hyperbole ("Christianity will simply be replaced by Islam" 'Sharia courts everywhere', etc, etc ) remains, even with you hair-splitting statistics. Also, given your attitudes to the equal treatment of women, feminism, and diversity within society shown in other threads, as far as the proscriptions of Islamic fundamentalism are concerned - although admittedly you are not so severe - you really need to put your stones down and slowly back out of this particular glass house. Thank you for playing.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 11, 2018 16:24:33 GMT
I hate to tell you this, but those figures are wrong. 2.9m is 4.6% of the population, not 2% So forgive me If I don't the rest of your argument seriously. But feel free to check the Pew research into Muslim attitudes to homosexuality, women, Jews and Sharia law, then consider whether you think doubling the numbers of Muslims might represent a problem to a secular democracy. As I said before, some people are Muslim. It seems more of them will be. Get over it. And the riposte to your original, and entirely characteristic, Islamophobic hyperbole ("Christianity will simply be replaced by Islam" 'Sharia courts everywhere', etc, etc ) remains, even with you hair-splitting statistics. Also, given your attitudes to the equal treatment of women, feminism, and diversity within society shown in other threads, as far as the proscriptions of Islamic fundamentalism are concerned - although admittedly you are not so severe - you really need to put your stones down and slowly back out of this particular glass house. Thank you for playing. Yes, thats it, tell me I've lost. Good one. Do you want to show where I've even come close to saying things like, oh I don't know, gay people should be put to death? Rape victims should be flogged? Women should only be worth half of a man? That people who don't follow my belief system should be killed? Nice work champ. You once again go for the ridiculous false equivalence. Questioning the validity of the gender "wage" gap argument isn't "less severe" its nowhere fucking near. Me: Forcing diversity is illiberal as it requires consideration of arbitrary traits over the merits of the individual You: Derp, yoo hate thee black n stuff...... ME: So is female dominance of teaching and the NHS a problem You: Not listening, not listening. Me: A difference in numbers does not equal inequality, look at the NBA You: Not listening, not listening. ME: Poor white boys are suffering the greatest in terms of education You: Don't care because white people Me: Black Americans commit massively more violent crime than any other demographic, thus explaining police shootings. You: OMFG RACSIMSS!!!!!. Me: The wage gap is largely a myth, the BBC report is incomplete and doesn't factor in anything regarding the contracts terms, nor the value of the individual to the corporation. You hurr, yu hates teh wimmens! Me: We have an issue with the Islamic population of the UK regarding its treatment and attitudes towards women, gay people and jews You: Hurr but muh islamophobia... You're entire game is denying anything that affects white people, specifically white men is a problem, while patronising every person who isn't a white male. You've cited Pew. Here you go www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/Now you tell me exactly why large scale immigration from those areas of the World is a good thing for any of the groups you think I hate? Yanno, black people, women, gays, Jews, Hindus, etc. I'd love to hear that argument. Oh and "Islamophobia" doesn't work as a shaming tactic. I'm not bothered that you want to label me for hating an idea. An idea incidentally dreamt up by a mass murdering, paedophile warlord. Whats the actual ethnic difference between Indians and Pakistanis? Ever see me moan about immigration from the Hindu or Sikh communities? Funny that, your lefty attempt to conflate Islam and race is as transparent as it is intellectually bankrupt.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 11, 2018 16:26:25 GMT
You're still evading the question Goz. 50% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be made illegal. Will doubling their number help the LGBT community? It doesn't mater what they think and that is a stupid illogical question. It doesn't matter that 50% of Muslims want homosexuality made illegal? Really? And its only a "stupid question" because you don't want to face the reality of the answer you would have to give.
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Post by goz on Jan 11, 2018 19:38:17 GMT
It doesn't mater what they think and that is a stupid illogical question. It doesn't matter that 50% of Muslims want homosexuality made illegal? Really? And its only a "stupid question" because you don't want to face the reality of the answer you would have to give. What does it matter what 50% of a small percentage of a population thinks, if they do not have the requisite power or influence in your country to mandate changes to that effect? If they, or anyone else act on those views by being discriminatory, bigoted or violent, than the British justice system has the means to prosecute and punish the individuals. Of course it is a stupid question, starting with the above and moving on to the fact that you have rigid conflated views that are racist and bigoted which means it is a loaded question. I read your most recent response to Film Flaneur and this was evident in the way you posed your own point of view from a rigid personal viewpoint of being an oppressed, (depressed) white xenophobic male. You are a true 'conservative' in that you don't want change. You don't want women, blacks, disabled people, people of different religions to have an egalitarian level playing field to live their lives. I feel sorry for you that you have such a poisonous, limited, truly bigoted viewpoint. It seems to make you unhappy and bitter towards other people who in general, do you no harm. You are scared and so scaremonger about groups of people and I find you more frightening than any moderate, minding their own business Muslim who emigrates for a better life for themselves and their families. That you conflate this with ISIS, alleged Muslim gangs and other criminal elements says more about you being an alarmist bigot with Nazi tendencies. ( yes Godwin's Law applies here )
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 12, 2018 10:32:24 GMT
I read your most recent response to Film Flaneur and this was evident in the way you posed your own point of view from a rigid personal viewpoint of being an oppressed, (depressed) white xenophobic male. Its also noticeable that, instead of real answers, all our Islamophobic friend can offer back now is self-justification, misrepresentation and extended mockery. The problem is not with more Muslims who, everyone agrees, are overwhelmingly peaceful and law abiding. The problem is with people like Thor, with their distrust and fear of 'the other'. I have just had a related exchange on another board, that time with someone obsessing about the 'Jewish Mafia' who, apparently force 'non-Aryan' culture onto a reluctant populace as part of a plot to subvert values etc. Two sides to the same coin, I guess. Ah well.
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Post by faustus5 on Jan 12, 2018 17:38:17 GMT
I have just had a related exchange on another board, that time with someone obsessing about the 'Jewish Mafia' who, apparently force 'non-Aryan' culture onto a reluctant populace as part of a plot to subvert values etc. Two sides to the same coin, I guess. Ah well. I don't know what thread that was, but it sounds very much as if the unnamed poster you refer to was PrimeGruffer. You may already know this, but he is literally a Nazi sympathizer and a white supremacist. I am not saying this metaphorically or engaging in hyperbole--he is literally those things and has never denied it.
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