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Post by Marv on Jun 4, 2018 16:29:58 GMT
But the thing is, this argument is subjective. Usually, it is. But when one player so dominates another player in every measurable category, like Brady over Montana, we find ourselves in objective territory. The evidence is so overwhelming that anyone who still clings to the subjective opinion that Montana is somehow still the GOAT, is just wrong. I threw Manning in the mix because he's back in the news with those HGH allegations. He was never a serious contender for GOAT. No. It’s still subjective. I could discredit all the stats by merely pointing out Brady played and is playing in a pass friendly NFL with rules that allow qbs to put up record numbers each year. Brady doesn’t stand out aside from consistency. He’s the Cal Ripken of the NFL. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 4, 2018 16:53:44 GMT
I’ve said it before...Brady isn’t even the best q.b. of his generation. Possibly not even number 2. I’ve watched his entire career and he’s had great success, true, but as a player he’s almost never impressed me. Contrary to Manning who’s impressed me countless times. But the thing is, this argument is subjective. You can throw all these stats out here, at the end of the day there are far too many moving parts to legitimately compare any two careers. All that anyone should ask is that it’s in the ballpark. You know? If someone starts to argue why Rodney Peete was better than Montana then I’ll argue that. But saying one great is better than another is kind of fruitless. If you have any of these three guys on your team in their prime you are a Super Bowl contender. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion. Who are the two QBs better than Brady? I've been thinking about this for a while and I've finally figured it out. It's the fact that Brady was drafted so low that he'll never get the credit he deserves. If he was drafted in the top 5 and went on to amass all these insane stats on top of winning five Super Bowls, people would almost universally accept him as the greatest QB ever. But because he seemingly came out of nowhere, people can't wrap their minds around it. "He's a system QB." What's the system? Why did the Patriots miss the playoffs the year he was injured? "It's all Belichick." Belichick, who had a losing record before Brady became the starter. Who was 5-11 his first year in New England and 0-2 in 2001 until Brady became the starter. Where was Belichick's genius in Super Bowl LII? Brady threw for 500+ yds and 3 TDs, while Belichick couldn't figure out how to stop Nick Foles. Brady kept the Patriots in the hunt the first half of last season while the Pats defense was HISTORICALLY bad statistically. Who was Brady leaning on? Whose coattails was he riding then? Who's better than Brady? Rodgers, whose own receivers acknowledge he overlooks open receivers looking for the home run ball every time? Maybe his team wouldn't need hail marys all the time if he simply hit the open man more often during the game. Maybe Roethlisberger could be a better player if he didn't throw a million picks or run around getting leveled trying to prove how 'tough' he is. Maybe Manning would've won more if he didn't fall apart more often than not come playoff time. You don't have to like Tom Brady, you can say there's other QBs you'd rather have because you appreciate their playing style or their personality or whatever. But it's laughable to suggest there are not one, but two QBs better than Brady in the modern era. This is pure anti-Patriots bias coming from a Steelers fan. It's silly. Did Manning impress you when his video game offense got demolished by the Seahawks in SB 48 and his team didn't score until the 2nd half? 8 total points? I guess Brady didn't impress you when he led his team from down 10 in the 4th qtr against that same defense the next Super Bowl. It's just dumb commentary. Next time save us all the trouble and say, "F*ck Brady, I hate that guy." At least it'll be an honest statement. Hold on while I go start a thread about how nothing LeBron James has done has impressed me. |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jun 4, 2018 17:02:14 GMT
I’ve said it before...Brady isn’t even the best q.b. of his generation. Possibly not even number 2. I’ve watched his entire career and he’s had great success, true, but as a player he’s almost never impressed me. Contrary to Manning who’s impressed me countless times. But the thing is, this argument is subjective. You can throw all these stats out here, at the end of the day there are far too many moving parts to legitimately compare any two careers. All that anyone should ask is that it’s in the ballpark. You know? If someone starts to argue why Rodney Peete was better than Montana then I’ll argue that. But saying one great is better than another is kind of fruitless. If you have any of these three guys on your team in their prime you are a Super Bowl contender. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion. Who are the two QBs better than Brady? I've been thinking about this for a while and I've finally figured it out. It's the fact that Brady was drafted so low that he'll never get the credit he deserves. If he was drafted in the top 5 and went on to amass all these insane stats on top of winning five Super Bowls, people would almost universally accept him as the greatest QB ever. But because he seemingly came out of nowhere, people can't wrap their minds around it. "He's a system QB." What's the system? Why did the Patriots miss the playoffs the year he was injured? "It's all Belichick." Belichick, who had a losing record before Brady became the starter. Who was 5-11 his first year in New England and 0-2 in 2001 until Brady became the starter. Where was Belichick's genius in Super Bowl LII? Brady threw for 500+ yds and 3 TDs, while Belichick couldn't figure out how to stop Nick Foles. Brady kept the Patriots in the hunt the first half of last season while the Pats defense was HISTORICALLY bad statistically. Who was Brady leaning on? Whose coattails was he riding then? Who's better than Brady? Rodgers, whose own receivers acknowledge he overlooks open receivers looking for the home run ball every time? Maybe his team wouldn't need hail marys all the time if he simply hit the open man more often during the game. Maybe Roethlisberger could be a better player if he didn't throw a million picks or run around getting leveled trying to prove how 'tough' he is. Maybe Manning would've won more if he didn't fall apart more often than not come playoff time. You don't have to like Tom Brady, you can say there's other QBs you'd rather have because you appreciate their playing style or their personality or whatever. But it's laughable to suggest there are not one, but two QBs better than Brady in the modern era. This is pure anti-Patriots bias coming from a Steelers fan. It's silly. Did Manning impress you when his video game offense got demolished by the Seahawks in SB 48 and his team didn't score until the 2nd half? 8 total points? I guess Brady didn't impress you when he led his team from down 10 in the 4th qtr against that same defense the next Super Bowl. It's just dumb commentary. Next time save us all the trouble and say, "F*ck Brady, I hate that guy." At least it'll be an honest statement. Hold on while I go start a thread about how nothing LeBron James has done has impressed me. I agree with pretty much everything you said, but do people still use the fact that Brady was a 6th round pick as a basis for judgement? |
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Post by damngumby on Jun 4, 2018 17:09:20 GMT
No. It’s still subjective. I could discredit all the stats by merely pointing out Brady played and is playing in a pass friendly NFL with rules that allow qbs to put up record numbers each year. If I was relying on Brady's record numbers, you'd have a point. But I'm not, so you don't. Most of the things I listed are relative to the period in which the person played. Brady has dominated his peers much more than Montana did. If you want to argue that Brady's achievements are inflated because today's players are smaller, weaker and slower than they were 30 years ago ... well, good luck with that! |
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jun 4, 2018 17:19:08 GMT
Hold on while I go start a thread about how nothing LeBron James has done has impressed me. I'm fairly certain this thread already exists. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 4, 2018 17:33:18 GMT
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but do people still use the fact that Brady was a 6th round pick as a basis for judgement? That and the Belichick thing are the only things I can think of. Well, that and the personal bias he was showcasing in his post. "The GOAT" is always going to be arguable when comparing eras or even organizations for which the athlete played (if LeBron, who I do not like, had played his entire career for a team as good as the 90s Bulls, how many titles would he have?). But there are people out there who still insist Brady is overrated, and it's a joke. I'm a Patriots fan, I'm not blind to my own bias and I don't require everyone to bow down and concede Brady is the greatest of all time. But these last two Super Bowls have taught me the Patriots success is closer to 70/30 (or greater) Brady/Belichick than the 50/50 I used to think it was. Even now Belichick is looked at as one of the greatest football coaches in history, and while I'd certainly rather have him than a lot of the goofs out there, I think he gets too much credit for simply being lucky enough to have Brady fall into his lap. I don't often hear the media asking where BB would be without Brady while Brady without Belichick seems to be an open question. Every other great QB is simply great. Brady 'has Belichick.' Is there a QB picked in the top 5 who went on to have a legendary career while people gave all the credit to the coach? But Brady was somehow lucky to play under the guy with a sub-.500 record as a head coach whose fortunes literally turned the second Brady became his starter? Greatness would be expected from a top 5 pick, a 199th pick has to be a fluke. All I know is the Patriots lose SB LI with any other person on the Earth as a QB. As to how that performance "didn't impress" Marv, only he knows the answer to that. |
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jun 4, 2018 17:47:28 GMT
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion. Who are the two QBs better than Brady? I've been thinking about this for a while and I've finally figured it out. It's the fact that Brady was drafted so low that he'll never get the credit he deserves. If he was drafted in the top 5 and went on to amass all these insane stats on top of winning five Super Bowls, people would almost universally accept him as the greatest QB ever. But because he seemingly came out of nowhere, people can't wrap their minds around it. "He's a system QB." What's the system? Why did the Patriots miss the playoffs the year he was injured? "It's all Belichick." Belichick, who had a losing record before Brady became the starter. Who was 5-11 his first year in New England and 0-2 in 2001 until Brady became the starter. Where was Belichick's genius in Super Bowl LII? Brady threw for 500+ yds and 3 TDs, while Belichick couldn't figure out how to stop Nick Foles. Brady kept the Patriots in the hunt the first half of last season while the Pats defense was HISTORICALLY bad statistically. Who was Brady leaning on? Whose coattails was he riding then? Who's better than Brady? Rodgers, whose own receivers acknowledge he overlooks open receivers looking for the home run ball every time? Maybe his team wouldn't need hail marys all the time if he simply hit the open man more often during the game. Maybe Roethlisberger could be a better player if he didn't throw a million picks or run around getting leveled trying to prove how 'tough' he is. Maybe Manning would've won more if he didn't fall apart more often than not come playoff time. You don't have to like Tom Brady, you can say there's other QBs you'd rather have because you appreciate their playing style or their personality or whatever. But it's laughable to suggest there are not one, but two QBs better than Brady in the modern era. This is pure anti-Patriots bias coming from a Steelers fan. It's silly. Did Manning impress you when his video game offense got demolished by the Seahawks in SB 48 and his team didn't score until the 2nd half? 8 total points? I guess Brady didn't impress you when he led his team from down 10 in the 4th qtr against that same defense the next Super Bowl. It's just dumb commentary. Next time save us all the trouble and say, "F*ck Brady, I hate that guy." At least it'll be an honest statement. Hold on while I go start a thread about how nothing LeBron James has done has impressed me. I agree with pretty much everything you said, but do people still use the fact that Brady was a 6th round pick as a basis for judgement? Do you remember that asshat Death163 from the old board? Man, that guy was impossible to talk to. He'd basically find any way to argue with you, no matter how ridiculous, and he'd just be unrelenting. If you tried to claim that the QB was the most important position on the football field, he'd respond with "so you think Christian Ponder is a more important player than Adrian Peterson, makes sense." We grew to assume that it was simply part of his shtick and he did it for his own amusement, which made it hilarious, but his posts would be so long, so absurd and he'd be the one constantly going on the attack even after everyone basically just stopped responding that we doubted whether or not he was just trolling. If he wasn't trolling, then holy shit is he one special kind of psycho. Anyway, one of his chief argument tactics was to go by draft position as a means of grading people. And yes, you guessed it, he used to use Alex Smith's #1 overall draft selection as a means of claiming that Alex Smith was an elite QB. Obviously, scouts and NFL GMs know how good he is, just because he never got into the right system that maximized his awesomeness isn't a knock on him, it's a knock on everyone else. He could square peg any round hole with whatever bread crumbs he could find. Hilarious. And terrifying. He was like a smarter, but more insane, version of Anne Hathaway Fan. |
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Post by Marv on Jun 4, 2018 17:47:51 GMT
@rey Kahuka  I think its hilarious how defensive Patriot fans get at the mere mention that Brady isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Take a pill dude, seriously. How in the world would my being a Steelers fan factor in to the Manning-Brady debate? At this juncture? Shouldn't I try and talk Brady up at this point? He crushes the Steelers year in and year out. Why wouldn't I grasp onto Brady's greatness as a copout? Because this has nothing to do with the Steelers in any way. Truth is exactly what I said. I've watched him play for his entire career and hes a master at those 5-10 yard passes. A true master. But those types of passes don't really impress me. I'm sorry I look for a different quality in judging a quarterback. I admittedly don't adhere championship wins as meaning all that much when discussing individual positions in any sport. You know, falling back on that whole 'team' thing. The comparison in coaching is another reason i drop Brady below Manning. Manning did what he did on two different teams with I don't even know how many different coaches. Brady had stability that Manning never did. Brees was the potential third option. His individual statistics are in that ballpark and hes won the superbowl. I don't personally have him above Brady but I think theres an argument there so i mentioned it. But like i said none of this even matters. We're splitting hairs between greats. We'll be doing it again in 10 years when someone new starts lighting up the stat line. Edit: And i don't give two sh-ts where he was drafted. Brady is an example of how flawed drafting prospects really is, imo. |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jun 4, 2018 17:49:12 GMT
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but do people still use the fact that Brady was a 6th round pick as a basis for judgement? That and the Belichick thing are the only things I can think of. Well, that and the personal bias he was showcasing in his post. "The GOAT" is always going to be arguable when comparing eras or even organizations for which the athlete played (if LeBron, who I do not like, had played his entire career for a team as good as the 90s Bulls, how many titles would he have?). But there are people out there who still insist Brady is overrated, and it's a joke. I'm a Patriots fan, I'm not blind to my own bias and I don't require everyone to bow down and concede Brady is the greatest of all time. But these last two Super Bowls have taught me the Patriots success is closer to 70/30 (or greater) Brady/Belichick than the 50/50 I used to think it was. Even now Belichick is looked at as one of the greatest football coaches in history, and while I'd certainly rather have him than a lot of the goofs out there, I think he gets too much credit for simply being lucky enough to have Brady fall into his lap. I don't often hear the media asking where BB would be without Brady while Brady without Belichick seems to be an open question. Every other great QB is simply great. Brady 'has Belichick.' Is there a QB picked in the top 5 who went on to have a legendary career while people gave all the credit to the coach? But Brady was somehow lucky to play under the guy with a sub-.500 record as a head coach whose fortunes literally turned the second Brady became his starter? Greatness would be expected from a top 5 pick, a 199th pick has to be a fluke. All I know is the Patriots lose SB LI with any other person on the Earth as a QB. As to how that performance "didn't impress" Marv, only he knows the answer to that. In a way the QB can’t win. If he has a great coach - Brady & Belichick, Montana & Young and Walsh & Seifert, Aikman & Johnson - then some of the credit the qb should get is removed. Whereas if the QB has an inferior coach - Rodgers & McCarthy, Big Ben & Tomlin, Rivers and all of them - then it’s “Rodgers only won once, how great can he be?” No one ever said something like “Greg Maddux had Bobby Cox so his numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.” I know baseball has WAR and the Bill James win-shares stat to compare players especially across different eras (Mike Trout vs. Mickey Mantle). Does football have that? Because Brady and Montana were both great, but the games, athleticism, and rules were different enough to have an effect. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 4, 2018 18:32:53 GMT
@rey Kahuka I think its hilarious how defensive Patriot fans get at the mere mention that Brady isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Take a pill dude, seriously. How in the world would my being a Steelers fan factor in to the Manning-Brady debate? At this juncture? Shouldn't I try and talk Brady up at this point? He crushes the Steelers year in and year out. Why wouldn't I grasp onto Brady's greatness as a copout? Because this has nothing to do with the Steelers in any way. Truth is exactly what I said. I've watched him play for his entire career and hes a master at those 5-10 yard passes. A true master. But those types of passes don't really impress me. I'm sorry I look for a different quality in judging a quarterback. I admittedly don't adhere championship wins as meaning all that much when discussing individual positions in any sport. You know, falling back on that whole 'team' thing. The comparison in coaching is another reason i drop Brady below Manning. Manning did what he did on two different teams with I don't even know how many different coaches. Brady had stability that Manning never did. Brees was the potential third option. His individual statistics are in that ballpark and hes won the superbowl. I don't personally have him above Brady but I think theres an argument there so i mentioned it. But like i said none of this even matters. We're splitting hairs between greats. We'll be doing it again in 10 years when someone new starts lighting up the stat line. Edit: And i don't give two sh-ts where he was drafted. Brady is an example of how flawed drafting prospects really is, imo.  Thanks, it's been fun. |
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Post by Marv on Jun 4, 2018 19:08:52 GMT
@ Rey Kahuka
Lol...it's ok. Im sure there are plenty of people in the world that agree with you. Somehow you'll find a way to deal with one person that doesn't. I hope you get over it someday. [cheers]
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 4, 2018 20:51:12 GMT
@rey Kahuka I admittedly don't adhere championship wins as meaning all that much when discussing individual positions in any sport. And rightly so. It's only dumb Patriots fans who try to claim Brady is better than Montana because Brady has more Super Bowls than Montana, but when you point out by that same logic would mean Eli Manning is a better QB than Aaron Rodgers and would also mean Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson are better QBs than Dan Marino, the dumb Patriots fans have no rebuttal for that hypocrisy. The comparison in coaching is another reason i drop Brady below Manning. Manning did what he did on two different teams with I don't even know how many different coaches. Brady had stability that Manning never did. Peyton Manning had 4 different head coaches (Tony Dungy, Jim Caldwell, John Fox, and Gary Kubiak) and went to a Super Bowl with each of the 4 coaches and won the Super Bowl with 2 different coaches. Even Joe Montana won the Super Bowl with 2 different head coaches. Brady has had the advantage of having the same head coach and thus the same system throughout his entire career. And even then, Brady still needed to cheat to win his first 4 Super Bowls. |
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jun 4, 2018 21:11:33 GMT
@ Rey Kahuka Lol...it's ok. Im sure there are plenty of people in the world that agree with you. Somehow you'll find a way to deal with one person that doesn't. I hope you get over it someday. [cheers] Sorry Marv, you know the rules. Once Anne Hathaway Fan agrees with you... |
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Post by Marv on Jun 4, 2018 21:16:39 GMT
@ Rey Kahuka Lol...it's ok. Im sure there are plenty of people in the world that agree with you. Somehow you'll find a way to deal with one person that doesn't. I hope you get over it someday. [cheers] Sorry Marv, you know the rules. Once Anne Hathaway Fan agrees with you...  Ill get my bag. |
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Post by damngumby on Jun 4, 2018 23:02:50 GMT
So ... you dismiss statistics and accomplishments. How do you judge players, by their aura? Greatness is measured by accomplishments. I’m not sure what you’re measuring when you have to provide excuses for those who have accomplished less. It’s actually kinda embarrassing for the player. “Poor Peyton never lived up to his full potential because ... he had four coaches.”
Really? |
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Post by Marv on Jun 5, 2018 0:17:02 GMT
So ... you dismiss statistics and accomplishments. How do you judge players, by their aura? Greatness is measured by accomplishments. I’m not sure what you’re measuring when you have to provide excuses for those who have accomplished less. It’s actually kinda embarrassing for the player. “Poor Peyton never lived up to his full potential because ... he had four coaches.”
Really? I take everything into account is all. You want to present this as some sort of definitive landslide but it isn’t. It never will be. That’s why there’s no true GOAT. There’s a collection of great players thrown into the conversation but there can never be a clear cut GOAT. But again...this is all subjective at this point. So I expect you to disagree. |
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Post by damngumby on Jun 5, 2018 7:53:27 GMT
I take everything into account is all. You want to present this as some sort of definitive landslide but it isn’t. It never will be. That’s why there’s no true GOAT. There’s a collection of great players thrown into the conversation but there can never be a clear cut GOAT. But again...this is all subjective at this point. So I expect you to disagree. I guess we’ll just have to say that Tom Brady is the holder of the greatest collection of accomplishments, accolades and statistics by any quarterback who ever played the game. ... because that is an objective fact that no one has disputed. It’s also pretty clear cut. He’s the undisputed HOTGCOAAASBAQWEPTG! Some folks might perfer GOAT, for short ... but that’s kinda ... uh ... subjective. |
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Post by Marv on Jun 5, 2018 8:26:35 GMT
I take everything into account is all. You want to present this as some sort of definitive landslide but it isn’t. It never will be. That’s why there’s no true GOAT. There’s a collection of great players thrown into the conversation but there can never be a clear cut GOAT. But again...this is all subjective at this point. So I expect you to disagree. I guess we’ll just have to say that Tom Brady is the holder of the greatest collection of accomplishments, accolades and statistics by any quarterback who ever played the game. ... because that is an objective fact that no one has disputed. It’s also pretty clear cut. He’s the undisputed HOTGCOAAASBAQWEPTG! Some folks might perfer GOAT, for short ... but that’s kinda ... uh ... subjective. I’m looking for individual statistics that Brady leads in all time....:/ His teams have accomplished plenty tho. Good for them. |
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Post by damngumby on Jun 5, 2018 17:06:04 GMT
I’m looking for individual statistics It sounds like you’re talking about the most talented instead of the greatest. There’s a difference. Talent without the accomplishments is nothing to celebrate. The 2007 Cowboys were arguably the most talented team of the century, with a record number of pro bowl players, yet they got bounced in the first round of the playoffs by a team they had beat twice in regular season. No one celebrates the extraordinary talent of that team. Today it seems like most Cowboy fans would rather forget they ever existed. Dan Marino. Quite possibly the greatest waste of talent in the history of the NFL. Again, nothing to celebrate. Aaron Rodgers. In my view the most talented QB playing today, but he only has one ring and time is running out. If he doesn’t start producing, he’ll be the 2nd greatest waste of talent in NFL history. Peyton Manning. Tremendous talent. 1st round draft pick. Golden boy. Best known for frequently folding in the playoffs. Mr. One & Done. Mannings legacy is disappointment, not greatness. Tom Brady is certainly not the most talented QB to ever play the game, but his accomplishments peg him as the greatest ... which is what this thread is about. |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jun 5, 2018 17:13:48 GMT
I’m looking for individual statistics It sounds like you’re talking about the most talented instead of the greatest. There’s a difference. Talent without the accomplishments is nothing to celebrate. The 2007 Cowboys were arguably the most talented team of the century, with a record number of pro bowl players, yet they got bounced in the first round of the playoffs by a team they had beat twice in regular season. No one celebrates the extraordinary talent of that team. Today it seems like most Cowboy fans would rather forget they ever existed. Dan Marino. Quite possibly the greatest waste of talent in the history of the NFL. Again, nothing to celebrate. Aaron Rodgers. In my view the most talented QB playing today, but he only has one ring and time is running out. If he doesn’t start producing, he’ll be the 2nd greatest waste of talent in NFL history. Peyton Manning. Tremendous talent. 1st round draft pick. Golden boy. Best known for frequently folding in the playoffs. Mr. One & Done. Mannings legacy is disappointment, not greatness. Tom Brady is certainly not the most talented QB to ever play the game, but his accomplishments peg him as the greatest ... which is what this thread is about. I actually agree with most of this but would like to point out something, but if I’m misinterpreting something then that’s on me. When you say that Marino and Rodgers are wastes of talent, where are you laying the blame? Because in Marino’s entire career the front office that “built” the team did a terrible job. Marino wasn’t the GM then, he couldn’t pick the players. Same with Rodgers. McCarthy is not a great coach and their front office didn’t do their team any favors either, especially with refusing to sign free agents as a matter of policy. So yes, Marino and Rodgers came up small at times but it’s not completely their fault. |
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I think its hilarious how defensive Patriot fans get at the mere mention that Brady isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Take a pill dude, seriously. How in the world would my being a Steelers fan factor in to the Manning-Brady debate? At this juncture? Shouldn't I try and talk Brady up at this point? He crushes the Steelers year in and year out. Why wouldn't I grasp onto Brady's greatness as a copout? Because this has nothing to do with the Steelers in any way. 
Ill get my bag.